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Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

Are we really born with inalienable rights?

  • Yes

    Votes: 21 53.8%
  • No

    Votes: 17 43.6%
  • Other (explain)

    Votes: 1 2.6%

  • Total voters
    39

kaya'08

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The term "inalienable" rights only came about on the founding of the constitution. How about before then? Was our rights inalienable? Why are humans subject to "inalienable rights", yet other animals are not, and who says we should have such rights, what makes us deserving of such rights, is the term inalienable rights simply a factor of social construct aimed at providing the Human a false term of importance, or a system of civilization?

Are we really born with Inalienable rights? Or is it merely a figment of the social structure we have developed as humans?
 
Actually I think the idea of inalienable rights can be traced throughout history. One influential document to the USAs founders was the Magna Caarta.
 
Rights are granted and removed at the whim of those in control. We are born with no such "rights", that is a social construct. We are born with and continue to gain personal interests and desires and may feel we have the "right" to do xyz, but we only have said "right" if it is allowed by those who have ultimate control over our actions, or if we can beat down those who would deny us what we believe to be our "right".
 
Rights are granted and removed at the whim of those in control. We are born with no such "rights", that is a social construct. We are born with and continue to gain personal interests and desires and may feel we have the "right" to do xyz, but we only have said "right" if it is allowed by those who have ultimate control over our actions, or if we can beat down those who would deny us what we believe to be our "right".

Exactly.

(ten words)
 
Consider for the moment the inverse proposition: Humans have no inalienable rights.

If there are no inalienable rights, then any "right" may be removed from any person at any time. "Rights" as such cease to exist, and are thus better apprehended as privileges granted or removed by some exterior agency. A person has not even the right to live and walk upon the earth if there are no inalienable rights.

If there are no rights, on what basis can there be laws? If a person has no right to life, upon what basis can we ascribe punishment to the taking of life (that taking being legally defined as murder). Without a right to life, one person taking the life of another is not comprehensible as a wrong. Laws after a fashion could be imposed by government, but such laws could not be anything but arbitrary and capricious, for without rights there is no power to bind government. Without rights, government becomes merely a rule by the strongest element of a society--and a rule constantly challenged by others.

One might perhaps argue that there need not be a society, and therefore there need not be a government, but such an argument fails to acknowledge the singular characteristic of Man--Man is a social animal. Homo sapiens sapiens, like the other great apes (chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas, et cetera), and like a great many other animals, naturally gathers into groups. Community and society are instinctive behaviors in Man. Wherever there is Mankind, there will be society. However that society so orders itself will be the government of that society. This is no more than the consequence of Man's existence.

Man will have society--for such is his nature--and thus Man will have government--being the defined order of that society. Sustaining that defined order requires that the capabilities of man be in some respect restrained; a man may not take as he will, kill as he will, do violence as he will, without consequence, for to allow such would be to disallow the order that preserves society. Even within the social groupings of other animals, individual members of those groupings are constrained from uninhibited action; it is no different for the social groupings of Man. Thus it is that for there to be society, there must be law to bind men into society.

Because there will be society, and because society will have law, it is necessary that Men have rights--for if a man has no rights, by what power may he constrain his fellow men? If a man has no rights, by what power can he enforce the laws upon which society (that which he cannot do without) depends? A man must have at the very least the right to act to enforce the law.

Because a man must have at least that much right, it necessarily follows that, regardless of the particulars of the social order, some rights cannot be set apart from man, and are thus "inalienable".
 
The Sacred Rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for among old parchments or musty records. They are written, as with a sunbeam, in the whole volume of human nature, by the Hand of the Divinity itself, and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power.

Thomas Jefferson
 
Consider for the moment the inverse proposition: Humans have no inalienable rights.

If there are no inalienable rights, then any "right" may be removed from any person at any time. "Rights" as such cease to exist, and are thus better apprehended as privileges granted or removed by some exterior agency. A person has not even the right to live and walk upon the earth if there are no inalienable rights.

I liked Carlin's POV on this:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F1Lq1uFcAE"]YouTube - George Carlin - Rights[/ame]
 
Consider for the moment the inverse proposition: Humans have no inalienable rights.

If there are no inalienable rights, then any "right" may be removed from any person at any time. "Rights" as such cease to exist, and are thus better apprehended as privileges granted or removed by some exterior agency. A person has not even the right to live and walk upon the earth if there are no inalienable rights.

If there are no rights, on what basis can there be laws? If a person has no right to life, upon what basis can we ascribe punishment to the taking of life (that taking being legally defined as murder). Without a right to life, one person taking the life of another is not comprehensible as a wrong. Laws after a fashion could be imposed by government, but such laws could not be anything but arbitrary and capricious, for without rights there is no power to bind government. Without rights, government becomes merely a rule by the strongest element of a society--and a rule constantly challenged by others.

One might perhaps argue that there need not be a society, and therefore there need not be a government, but such an argument fails to acknowledge the singular characteristic of Man--Man is a social animal. Homo sapiens sapiens, like the other great apes (chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas, et cetera), and like a great many other animals, naturally gathers into groups. Community and society are instinctive behaviors in Man. Wherever there is Mankind, there will be society. However that society so orders itself will be the government of that society. This is no more than the consequence of Man's existence.

Man will have society--for such is his nature--and thus Man will have government--being the defined order of that society. Sustaining that defined order requires that the capabilities of man be in some respect restrained; a man may not take as he will, kill as he will, do violence as he will, without consequence, for to allow such would be to disallow the order that preserves society. Even within the social groupings of other animals, individual members of those groupings are constrained from uninhibited action; it is no different for the social groupings of Man. Thus it is that for there to be society, there must be law to bind men into society.

Because there will be society, and because society will have law, it is necessary that Men have rights--for if a man has no rights, by what power may he constrain his fellow men? If a man has no rights, by what power can he enforce the laws upon which society (that which he cannot do without) depends? A man must have at the very least the right to act to enforce the law.

Because a man must have at least that much right, it necessarily follows that, regardless of the particulars of the social order, some rights cannot be set apart from man, and are thus "inalienable".

Very well thought out and explained argument, but I disagree. The "basis" that you demand for governmental imposed rules, laws, and/or rights is the society itself. As we all well know, different societies have different ideas of "rights". They have different laws, different rules, different freedoms. If "rights" were indeed inalienable to mankind, there would not be such diversity in what those supposed inalienable rights are.

You ask at the beginning:

A person has not even the right to live and walk upon the earth if there are no inalienable rights.

This is indeed true. In the grand scheme of things, I have absolutely no right to walk upon this earth. I EARN that right by destroying those who would deny it to me, OR by being born in a society that has determined that I have that right and as such protects it for me at my behest.
 
Consider for the moment the inverse proposition: Humans have no inalienable rights.

If there are no inalienable rights, then any "right" may be removed from any person at any time. "Rights" as such cease to exist, and are thus better apprehended as privileges granted or removed by some exterior agency. A person has not even the right to live and walk upon the earth if there are no inalienable rights.

We have the right to live, to liberty, and hapiness. However, i cannot think of a single right that cannot be taken away from us. All and any of our rights can be taken away, even our right to live, therefore i do not consider them inalienable rights, but rights we are given at birth. Inalienable rights are rights which cannot ever be taken away. Your are suggesting our right to life, property, happiness, etc, cannot be taken away and therefore call them "inalienable" unless you define "inalienable" differently to how i define it. Just because you feel we should, or deserve, or must have those such rights, does not make them impossible to be taken away, and therefore technically are not inalienable.
 
Carlin should have read the 9th amendment before his rant.

Government can't "give" you a right, before first taking that right away.
 
We have the right to live, to liberty, and hapiness. However, i cannot think of a single right that cannot be taken away from us. All and any of our rights can be taken away, even our right to live, therefore i do not consider them inalienable rights, but rights we are given at birth. Inalienable rights are rights which cannot ever be taken away. Your are suggesting our right to life, property, happiness, etc, cannot be taken away and therefore call them "inalienable" unless you define "inalienable" differently to how i define it. Just because you feel we should, or deserve, or must have those such rights, does not make them impossible to be taken away, and therefore technically are not inalienable.

The God who gave us life gave us liberty at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them.

Thomas Jefferson
 
The God who gave us life gave us liberty at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them.

Thomas Jefferson

You cannot prove God exists, as i cannot disprove it, so i cant use it in an argument, and if you do its baseless.
 
Very well thought out and explained argument, but I disagree. The "basis" that you demand for governmental imposed rules, laws, and/or rights is the society itself. As we all well know, different societies have different ideas of "rights". They have different laws, different rules, different freedoms. If "rights" were indeed inalienable to mankind, there would not be such diversity in what those supposed inalienable rights are.
You are presuming that all rights are inherently "inalienable" rights. That presumption is demonstrably false, for if all rights were inalienable, then no man would have any power to bind his fellow man--there could be no constraint, no law, and thus no society. While some rights must be inalienable, other rights must not be inalienable.

A person has not even the right to live and walk upon the earth if there are no inalienable rights.

This is indeed true. In the grand scheme of things, I have absolutely no right to walk upon this earth. I EARN that right by destroying those who would deny it to me, OR by being born in a society that has determined that I have that right and as such protects it for me at my behest.
Society cannot exist without the inalienable right to life.

Every creature desires to live; that is the order of things. Society is the instinctive mechanism by which mankind proposes to best satiate his desire to live. All social animals, when deprived of the community, do not thrive; Man, being a social animal, needs society to live.

Thus, society is an expression of the desire to live, and the laws of society are predicated on assuring life to the individual man. Indeed, you will not find in any society a corpus of law that is dismissive of the individual man's desire to live.

Moreover, if the members of a society do not take pains to preserve the lives of that society's members, that society will not sustain. Life is always a precarious proposition; if we are dismissive of each other's desires for life, if we stand idle when the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune conspire to take away life, then, in time, we will all perish, and so will our society. As Benjamin Franklin observed most sardonically, "we must all hang together, or most assuredly we will all hang separately."

Thus it is that any society, if it is to endure, must take pains to preserve the lives of its members. Thus it is that, in every society, a man must have an inalienable right to life, for to argue otherwise is invariably to argue the dissolution of society.
 
You cannot prove God exists, as i cannot disprove it, so i cant use it in an argument, and if you do its baseless.

Whether "GOD" exists or not is irrelevant when it comes to the maintenance of liberty. The concept of GOD-given, inalienable, natural rights is key to the function of our Representative Republic because "rights" that pre-date man or governments of man place certain powers (liberties) out of the hands of man. Drive "GOD" out of the mix and your rights will flow directly from the government and can be arbitrarily abridged by man. So GOD existing is physical, scientific sensed isn't important as long as the understanding that certain rights are off limits to the Government is observed.
 
Society cannot exist without the inalienable right to life.

I'll address the rest later, (mainly I take issue with the notion that mankind needs society to live) but for right now I just wanted to correct this statement above.

Society cannot exist with an agreement between the individuals within the society that killing one another is a "bad thing to do". Or, that life is a right within that society.

No inalienable 'right' need exist. Merely an agreement between individuals. As such, that right is granted by the society in order to facilitate the society, it's not inalienable.
 
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Whether "GOD" exists or not is irrelevant when it comes to the maintenance of liberty. The concept of GOD-given, inalienable, natural rights is key to the function of our Representative Republic because "rights" that pre-date man or governments of man place certain powers (liberties) out of the hands of man. Drive "GOD" out of the mix and your rights will flow directly from the government and can be arbitrarily abridged by man. So GOD existing is physical, scientific sensed isn't important as long as the understanding that certain rights are off limits to the Government is observed.

I believe that we are born with the right to live, liberty and happiness. But to call them inalienable is incorrect. To say such rights are inalienable, you mean to say such rights can never be taken away from us, though in essence, they can be, and it doesn't even take a head of state to do it. We may be born with the right to live, and happiness, and liberty, but if we live in a nation that forbids such things, then those rights that should be ours are no longer ours and have been taken away, though we should be subjected to them as human beings. As i have said, the concept of "inalienable" rights is purely make belief and only existence on the establishment of the constitution.
 
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No inalienable 'right' need exist. Merely an agreement between individuals. As such, that right is granted by the society in order to facilitate the society, it's not inalienable.
Except you are conflating your terms. First you describe an agreement "between individuals" and transpose that as a right granted by "the society".

The agreement "between individuals" is the society--and the first part of that agreement is to endeavor to preserve each others' lives. As society is inevitable, the agreement is inevitable, and the the right to life--being the substance of that agreement--must be inalienable to the individual.
 
And i only say we are born with those rights in the sense that we are born deserving those rights, otherwise, rights are purely make belief. They only exist in the human psyche.
 
I believe that we are born with the right to live, liberty and happiness. But to call them inalienable is incorrect. To say such rights are inalienable, you mean to say such rights can never be taken away from us, though in essence, they can be, and it doesn't even take a head of state to do it.

If you can accept the concept of what inalienable rights are, why cant you understand that it is a violation anytime a force - whether it be a democratic government or a dictatorship of oligarchs deprives men of those rights?
 
You are presuming that all rights are inherently "inalienable" rights. That presumption is demonstrably false, for if all rights were inalienable, then no man would have any power to bind his fellow man--there could be no constraint, no law, and thus no society. While some rights must be inalienable, other rights must not be inalienable.


Society cannot exist without the inalienable right to life.

Every creature desires to live; that is the order of things. Society is the instinctive mechanism by which mankind proposes to best satiate his desire to live. All social animals, when deprived of the community, do not thrive; Man, being a social animal, needs society to live.

Thus, society is an expression of the desire to live, and the laws of society are predicated on assuring life to the individual man. Indeed, you will not find in any society a corpus of law that is dismissive of the individual man's desire to live.

Moreover, if the members of a society do not take pains to preserve the lives of that society's members, that society will not sustain. Life is always a precarious proposition; if we are dismissive of each other's desires for life, if we stand idle when the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune conspire to take away life, then, in time, we will all perish, and so will our society. As Benjamin Franklin observed most sardonically, "we must all hang together, or most assuredly we will all hang separately."

Thus it is that any society, if it is to endure, must take pains to preserve the lives of its members. Thus it is that, in every society, a man must have an inalienable right to life, for to argue otherwise is invariably to argue the dissolution of society.

Some places being a victim of rape alienates an individual's right to live.
 
If you can accept the concept of what inalienable rights are, why cant you understand that it is a violation anytime a force - whether it be a democratic government or a dictatorship of oligarchs deprives men of those rights?

Its only a violation in a place where rights are commonplace. In a place where it is non-existent, what we may see as an abuse of a right may not be seen as such in that country where rights are non-existent.
 
Society cannot exist without the inalienable right to life.

No, society exists because some men are survivors, and those who are not, do not exist with us today. Who says we have the right to life? If we did, we wouldn't be forced, as part of natures system, to fight for survival and ensure that very life exists. If it was a natural right, wouldn't life come without a fight to ensure it remains as such?
 
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Its only a violation in a place where rights are commonplace. In a place where it is non-existent, what we may see as an abuse of a right may not be seen as such in that country where rights are non-existent.

This is true. I hear in Afghanistan you can starve your wife if she won't put out.
 
Its only a violation in a place where rights are commonplace. In a place where it is non-existent, what we may see as an abuse of a right may not be seen as such in that country where rights are non-existent.

My concept & the inherent concept of natural rights remains consistent regardless of any regime foreign or domestic that legitimizes the deprivation of them.
 
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