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Healthcare question for Christians

WWJD?

  • Total voters
    34
SouthernDemocrat said:
No, I am not saying that you should vote to compel adherence to your moral beliefs. For example, you can't force someone not to lie or not to sleep around on their spouse. Those are choices that they have to make.
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Yes, you are, especially in this context of providing health care.

To help someone is a moral choice, and individual one. It's a proactive decision.

You argue that Christians are obligated to vote to force someone to make that choice.


However, at the same time you are also to pursue compassion and justice in your actions. You do this in your individual actions, in your communities, and in the voting booth. As I stated earlier, you cannot use the government to endorse, promote, or compel adherence to your specific religious beliefs. However, your actions in the voting booth and at the town hall can and should be reflective of your beliefs and conscience.

For example, in a representative democracy, if your government that represents and and that you elect was engaging in genocide, you could not say that well the bible only talks about what I do individually and my voting and my petitioning of my government is excluded from that.
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This bolsters my point.

If your country is committing genocide, and you have a say in it, your vote to support it represents an individual moral act on your part. You're putting your personal approval on something which is against the teachings of Jesus.

If you did nothing to support it and indeed try to save people, then your government's actions have no moral weight on your soul.

If you vote to impose your own views on others, then that, too, is putting your approval on something against the teachings of Jesus. You're not dusting off your sandals; you're imposing your will by the sword.

So yes, you are imposing your religion on others by forcing them to act according to your beliefs.


That is just not how it works. We are all to pursue justice and compassion in all of our actions.
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This presupposes that putting anyone under the authority of anyone except God -- whether a dictator, or those by elected majority -- is God's idea of "justice" and "compassion." I don't find any support for that in Jesus's teachings.
 
winston53660 said:
So should we eliminate the fire department and ambulance that tax dollars pay for and aid the sick and poor?
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No one said this. The position is very simple, Jesus didn't advocate people being forced to help the sick and poor.
 
winston53660 said:
So should we eliminate the fire department and ambulance that tax dollars pay for and aid the sick and poor?
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Non-sequitur.
Has nothing to do with what I said or the issue at hand.
 
winston53660 said:
So should we eliminate the fire department and ambulance that tax dollars pay for and aid the sick and poor?
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That is funded by state and local taxes, not federal.

Does not apply and is considered a fallacy.
 
Blackdog said:
That is funded by state and local taxes, not federal.

Does not apply and is considered a fallacy.
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No, it's still forcing people to support the FD and emergency services through taxation.

What's the fallacy, though, is that discussing "what Jesus would do" is not the same thing as actually arguing for or against anything. It's simply a discussion of what Jesus would do.
 
Goobieman said:
Non-sequitur.
Has nothing to do with what I said or the issue at hand.
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You are advocating that people should not be forced to help the sick and poor. Ambulance services certainly do help the sick and poor via tax dollars.
 
Harshaw said:
What's the fallacy, though, is that discussing "what Jesus would do" is not the same thing as actually arguing for or against anything. It's simply a discussion of what Jesus would do.
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Agreed.......I just had the question.
 
disneydude said:
This is a question for Christians:

WWJD?

Would Jesus support a UHC plan or would he feel that healthcare should be portioned out based on an individuals ability to pay?
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Christ was about voluntary charity, not state sponsored theft of wages.

Universal health-care is not voluntary nor is it charity.
 
winston53660 said:
You are advocating that people should not be forced to help the sick and poor. Ambulance services certainly do help the sick and poor via tax dollars.
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No. I am not.
Please consider the context in which this duscussion takes place.
 
Harshaw said:
What's the fallacy, though, is that discussing "what Jesus would do" is not the same thing as actually arguing for or against anything. It's simply a discussion of what Jesus would do.
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...based on the assumption that He would follow His own teachings.
Right.
 
Goobieman said:
No. I am not.
Please consider the context in which this duscussion takes place.
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Okay fine, I'll rephrase. Do you think Jesus would support emergency services via taxation like ambulances that benefit the sick and poor?
 
Goobieman said:
Well then, you shall receive the same response:

Unless you can describe the error in my position, you will contine to be wrong.
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Your position is what it is, so is mine, it is the same as any individual opinion. What counts is the aggregate of all of those opinions at the voting booth.

I chose to answer the question and provided scripture to back it up. With all of the talk of free will no has mentioned god's will. If god speaks through the scriptures then the bible has instructed me the reader to support Health care reform. Maybe your bible tells you a different thing, that is between you and the lord. I am done with this discussion.
 
winston53660 said:
Okay fine, I'll rephrase. Do you think Jesus would support emergency services via taxation like ambulances that benefit the sick and poor?
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Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's; render unto God what is God's.

He wouldn't oppose it, but he wouldn't find it relevant to the status of your personal salvation. No difference here.

I will, however, go on record as saying that I find the teachings of Christ to be perfectly compatible with a perfect communism. (And those who are learned in such matters will know that a perfect communism is entirely voluntary and does not involve a state.)
 
winston53660 said:
Okay fine, I'll rephrase. Do you think Jesus would support emergency services via taxation like ambulances that benefit the sick and poor?
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Probably not; as has been explained before, Jesus did not concern himself with governments, but on how individuals could reach salvation through selfless acts derived from their own free will.
 
angrycarpenter said:
Your position is what it is, so is mine, it is the same as any individual opinion. What counts is the aggregate of all of those opinions at the voting booth.
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That's called an appeal to popularity, and is a logical fallacy.

Unless you can describe the error in my position, you will contine to be wrong.
 
angrycarpenter said:
Your position is what it is, so is mine, it is the same as any individual opinion. What counts is the aggregate of all of those opinions at the voting booth.

I chose to answer the question and provided scripture to back it up. With all of the talk of free will no has mentioned god's will. If god speaks through the scriptures then the bible has instructed me the reader to support Health care reform. Maybe your bible tells you a different thing, that is between you and the lord. I am done with this discussion.
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And I will ask again what scripture says to support stealing from one person to give to another? That is what this amounts to. I already donate to charity, why should I be forced to donate even more? This is in no way Christian.
 
Blackdog said:
And I will ask again what scripture says to support stealing from one person to give to another? That is what this amounts to. I already donate to charity, why should I be forced to donate even more? This is in no way Christian.
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Taxing is stealing? Hyperbole.
 
angrycarpenter said:
Your position is what it is, so is mine, it is the same as any individual opinion. What counts is the aggregate of all of those opinions at the voting booth.

I chose to answer the question and provided scripture to back it up. With all of the talk of free will no has mentioned god's will. If god speaks through the scriptures then the bible has instructed me the reader to support Health care reform. Maybe your bible tells you a different thing, that is between you and the lord. I am done with this discussion.
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Your own scripture doesn't back it up, because it specifically describes leaving people be who do not want to help.
 
It's taking by force. You can call it justified in some instances, but that's what it is
 
Harshaw said:
He wouldn't oppose it, but he wouldn't find it relevant to the status of your personal salvation. No difference here.
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I think even Charles Manson could go to heaven as long as he accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.
 
winston53660 said:
I think even Charles Manson could go to heaven as long as he accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.
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Theologically, this is correct.
 
Hatuey said:
Taxing is stealing? Hyperbole.
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In certain circumstances it is most definitely. We had a little thing called the Revolutionary war over just that.

The only hyperbole here is your statement.
 
Goobieman said:
Probably not; as has been explained before, Jesus did not concern himself with governments, but on how individuals could reach salvation through selfless acts derived from their own free will.
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And a lot of times people act collectively on their own free will like providing emergency services.
 
winston53660 said:
And a lot of times people act collectively on their own free will like providing emergency services.
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In context, how does thiis mean anything?

Specificlally, how does forcing others to provide "charity" fall under the tenets of Christianity?
 
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