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Role of government in Education

role of state in education

  • Total voters
    21
NEUROSPORT said:
i hope you're kidding.

I don't know about UK but education in America is a joke compared to the education we received in USSR.

We started physics in 5th grade. In 9th grade we were doing 7th order equations. Then I came to USA and learned NOTHING in high school. Then I went to a private university and on my 2nd year finally got to revisit the same kind of math I was doing 7 years ago in Kiev. The university I attended here in NY is notorious for being one of the hardest with freshman dropout rate of 70%.

In USSR if you didn't do well in school your parents would BEAT YOU until you did better. They would beat you as much as it took. in America I would sit in class with my Sony minidisk player and headphones on my head and EXPLAIN THE SUBJECT TO MY TEACHER when i was bored.
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Our education requirements are not strong enough. I agree.

I think it likely that this is, in part, due to attempts at making it easier for some students to advance, which would have caused them to study far more than more gifted ones, thus alienating them from their "peers". In other words, possibly hurting their feelings, a known horror to be avoided at all costs (including the education level of those who could do better).

However, from the sound of things, you may be very good at math (I myself am probably average), and in the USSR they likely recognized that and focused on it in their instruction of you. This has it’s advantages (improving an area that is already a strength), but if they reduced your instruction in other areas it would limit your overall education to an extent.

Now, as to the beating of kids if they did poorly, that cannot be done in the USA at this time (at least not without repercussions for the parents). And further, I personally think there are better ways, which avoid potential mental/physical harm to a child.
 
The Mark said:
Our education requirements are not strong enough. I agree.

I think it likely that this is, in part, due to attempts at making it easier for some students to advance, which would have caused them to study far more than more gifted ones, thus alienating them from their "peers". In other words, possibly hurting their feelings, a known horror to be avoided at all costs (including the education level of those who could do better).
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to be honest i am not very concerned with providing people with education. i am more concerned with people escaping indoctrination.

also it is my belief that the government DOES NOT CARE whether students learn anything useful or not. and this is the primary and ONLY reason why they don't.

i believe every individual must do his own research. i don't believe in education at all. i believe in research. all information should be available to anybody interested in it, thats all. no need to instruct anybody.

if the state can make sure that a child doesn't have to work ( in order to have TIME to study ) to exist comfortably. if the state can make sure every child has a computer and access to internet. if the state can make sure every child can order any book from Amazon or borrow it from the library then the state has mostly done its job. paying for an actual building with teachers in it is sort of optional i think - of course it would be nice to have that as well.

having police officers detain kids who have been cutting classes is NOT about education. its about CONTROL.
 
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NEUROSPORT said:
for example you are given a definition of the word "patriot" and on a test you are asked to repeat that definition.

now what if you happen to THINK that a patriot is a stupid f*cking degenerate completely brainwashed by the state who derives sexual pleasure from mutilating children by bombing them with napalm and cluster bombs ? that is not the definition you were given so you fail the test. you are then informed that you are a failure.
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...Except in this case you'd be WRONG and DESERVE to fail....

so you are a *success* when you REPEAT the information given to you and *failure* when you THINK for yourself.

this is how education is structured and that's how it churns out sheep.
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That depends on the teacher.

If a teacher teaches by memorization then yes, kids are just repeating information.

If a teacher uses a more thinking-friendly method, then no.

What it does NOT depend on is the government.
 
NEUROSPORT said:
i hope you're kidding.

i don't know about UK but education in America is a joke compared to the education we received in USSR.

we started physics in 5th grade. in 9th grade we were doing 7th order equations. then i came to USA and learned NOTHING in high school. then i went to a private university and on my 2nd year finally got to revisit the same kind of math i was doing 7 years ago in Kiev. the university i attended here in NY is notorious for being one of the hardest with freshman dropout rate of 70%. people tell horror stories about it here in NY yet back in USSR it would have been considered completely normal.

in USSR if you didn't do well in school your parents would BEAT YOU until you did better. they would beat you as much as it took. in America i would sit in class with my sony minidisc player and headphones on my head and EXPLAIN THE SUBJECT TO MY TEACHER when i was bored.
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American education is not one thing.
Every state, and every county within that state, has different education policies.
They might be good in one place and bad in the other. Trying to paint "American education" as one thing is incorrect.
 
Dav said:
That depends on the teacher.

If a teacher teaches by memorization then yes, kids are just repeating information.

If a teacher uses a more thinking-friendly method, then no.

What it does NOT depend on is the government.
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don't you have to take standardized state history tests ?

isn't the teacher PRESSURED to have his students do well on these tests ?

isn't that in effect FORCING him to have kids MEMORIZE THE ANSWERS to questions ?
 
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Dav said:
According to the dictionary, which is where one would typically go for definitions.
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i would go here:

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism]Patriotism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


and that's probably not the question your teacher is expecting.

in other words giving an intelligent answer would make you FAIL while giving a brain dead answer would make you pass.
 
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NEUROSPORT said:
don't you have to take standardized state history tests ?
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Yes.

Before those came along education was crap. Teachers taught whatever the hell they wanted and got away with it; as a consequence "self-esteem" became more important than actual knowledge.

Then the standardized tests came along. Kids had to actually KNOW things. Education improved dramatically. Don't tell me that standardized tests are just kids barking things back, they require teachers to actually TEACH things.

Now, I have some issues with the test, but it's better than no test for sure.
 
NEUROSPORT said:
isn't the teacher PRESSURED to have his students do well on these tests ?

isn't that in effect FORCING him to have kids MEMORIZE THE ANSWERS to questions ?
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We don't memorize the answers because we don't know what the questions will be until the test comes.

The SOLs really aren't anything, they require a few weeks of study max and the rest of the year the teachers can do anything else. In International Bacheloriate (the program I'm in) there are other tests, BETTER ones, which we spend all year preparing for.

In regular classes... education is still crap unfortunately. As I learned in my non-IB English class last year.

More importantly... EVERYONE has to take these SOLs, whether in public school or in private school. So it's really not important to the topic.
 
Dav said:
Yes.

Before those came along education was crap. Teachers taught whatever the hell they wanted and got away with it; as a consequence "self-esteem" became more important than actual knowledge.

Then the standardized tests came along. Kids had to actually KNOW things. Education improved dramatically. Don't tell me that standardized tests are just kids barking things back, they require teachers to actually TEACH things.

Now, I have some issues with the test, but it's better than no test for sure.
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standardized tests are great idea for math and sciences.

a very bad idea for teaching history.

math and sciences are mostly facts. history is mostly lies.
 
NEUROSPORT said:
standardized tests are great idea for math and sciences.

a very bad idea for teaching history.

math and sciences are mostly facts. history is mostly lies.
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Ah, but here is one place we can agree. I grew wary long ago with the misinformation history teachers passed off as fact- not because the government made them do it, mind you, but because of the beliefs of the teachers themselves.

It would be much more productive to teach the raw information and let the students form their own opinions, rather than try to teach such falsities as "the New Deal ended the Great Depression" when that is only one interpretation of the facts.
 
Dav we're looking at the same problem from different perspectives.

You are asking the question - how do i make sure i get a nice job after i am done with school.

I am asking the question - how did we end up with a society of sheep ?
 
NEUROSPORT said:
I am asking the question - how did we end up with a society of sheep ?
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I dunno, why don't you ask the other 4 people on the bus?

sheeple.png
 
Dav said:
I dunno, why don't you ask the other 4 people on the bus?

sheeple.png
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good cartoon.

well look. 99% of my life is like that cartoon but there is also 1% where i actually do something whereas other people do nothing.

what i do:

1 - i donated to Ron Paul twice, $50 and $100 respectively during his campaign
2 - i donated to $100 to Wikipedia last year
3 - i recently bought $60 worth of Alex Jones T-Shirts ( directly from his site, so supporting him financially ) and i WEAR THEM.

i get ALOT of looks when i wear this shirt:

Socialism T-Shirt

4 - i have a little website of my own so people can read some of my ideas:

http://www.diy-av.net/

5 - i spend hundreds of hours debating people like you even though there is nothing in it for myself

6 - i pay $20/month for Box.net account where i host various files so when lets say a new movie from Alex Jones comes out within a day or so i have it uploaded to the server and send out direct download links to friends as well as post the link on multiple messageboards

the point is i am doing SOMETHING. most people do NOTHING.
 
NEUROSPORT said:
standardized tests are great idea for math and sciences.

a very bad idea for teaching history.

math and sciences are mostly facts. history is mostly lies.
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No.

Math and science are most understanding and defined method.

History is mostly understanding people.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
I was speaking english.

I didn't make the false claim that schools today teach history.
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I have seen people claim this on various occasions.

As I never went to public school, I was wondering...what do they actually teach, and how is it wrong?
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Same old lame liberal-extortionist arguments.

No, we're not obligated to pay their education, nor are we obligated to pay for their welfare.

If they want to rot in prison, we can accomodate that, but we should use that Sheriff Joe from Arizona to run them.
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Do you realize that you are part of a larger society? Do you realize that it is in you best interest that those around you - doctor, lawyer, plumber, mechanic, store managers, truck drivers, etc. - are well educated? It is to your and everyone's benefit that we are an educated society.
 
The Mark said:
I have seen people claim this on various occasions.

As I never went to public school, I was wondering...what do they actually teach, and how is it wrong?
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well they teach you that Lincoln was a great president because he freed the slaves and preserved the union

never mind the fact that he didn't give a sh1t about the slaves according to his own words

also what is so noble about murdering countless people just so you can preserve your control over a territory ? i asked my teacher this repeatedly and he never gave me an answer.

they teach that federal reserve was created to bring stability to economy and end bank runs. actually many students end up thinking that federal reserve was created in response to the great depression when in fact it was around for more than a decade when the great depression hit. basically the explanations students are given are so absurd that students end up remembering everything backwards because it just simply doesn't make sense to remember it the way they are actually taught.
 
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Layla_Z said:
Do you realize that you are part of a larger society? Do you realize that it is in you best interest that those around you - doctor, lawyer, plumber, mechanic, store managers, truck drivers, etc. - are well educated? It is to your and everyone's benefit that we are an educated society.
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This is correct.

This issue that remains, however, is to determine what the term "education" should mean in this context.

Should it mean: "Teach our children these statements and formulas, so that they may apply them to their lives in the future"? OR.

Should it mean: "Teach our children the tools to analyze and decipher the world around them, that they may understand it fully"?

I would much rather the latter.

"Critical Thinking" is a term that many like to use. I personally think that it should be taught in each and every class that a student ever takes, as it applies to everything.
 
Layla_Z said:
Do you realize that you are part of a larger society? Do you realize that it is in you best interest that those around you - doctor, lawyer, plumber, mechanic, store managers, truck drivers, etc. - are well educated? It is to your and everyone's benefit that we are an educated society.
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i'd love those around me to be knowledgeable and intelligent.

but not "well educated"

the word "education" to me is a curse word.

you can learn, study or research. this implies HUNGER FOR KNOWLEDGE. but education means something else - it means FORCING YOUR VIEW ON SOMEBODY ELSE.

knowledge should come from curiosity and experience. not from indoctrination.
 
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