Role of government in Education

Oftencold said:

We typically spend many thousands of dollars on each student in the country every year. What's the limit?

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However much is necessary to do the job right.

Dav said:

There is nothing wrong with providing free government-sponsored education AS AN OPTION.

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there is everything wrong with that.

it uses taxpayer money to automatically put every honest private school at an unfair disadvantage.

NEUROSPORT said:

there is everything wrong with that.

it uses taxpayer money to automatically put every honest private school at an unfair disadvantage.

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So?

I go to a public school. I am fine with going to public schools, I like my public school, it's a good school and don't tell me I can't go to it.

Besides, everyone needs education, especially in a democracy which requires an informed public. Vouchers are nice, but to give *everyone* a voucher just makes no sense and would have all sorts of complications. Public schools, as long as private schools exist as an alternative, are fine with me.

Dav said:

So?

I go to a public school. I am fine with going to public schools, I like my public school, it's a good school and don't tell me I can't go to it.

Besides, everyone needs education, especially in a democracy which requires an informed public. Vouchers are nice, but to give *everyone* a voucher just makes no sense and would have all sorts of complications. Public schools, as long as private schools exist as an alternative, are fine with me.

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did you come here to babble or to debate ?

"all sorts of complications" is not specific enough for me.

NEUROSPORT said:

did you come here to babble or to debate ?

"all sorts of complications" is not specific enough for me.

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It in essence makes the cost of all private schools the same ($0 that the parents have to pay), even if their value is not the same. That is bound to have some negative consequences on free market education.

Dav said:

It in essence makes the cost of all private schools the same ($0 that the parents have to pay), even if their value is not the same. That is bound to have some negative consequences on free market education.

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but who said that it must be done that way ?

we could give every student an equal sum of money. we could give them "rollover minutes" so the money they save this year could go towards next year. we could let them take out loans if they need a little extra.

and parents should be encouraged to contribute out of pocket for an upscale education.

you could even have a basic free and a paid "deluxe" program in the same physical school building. for example a free program might have classes of 30 while a paid program might have classes of 15.

NEUROSPORT said:

but who said that it must be done that way ?

we could give every student an equal sum of money. we could give them "rollover minutes" so the money they save this year could go towards next year. we could let them take out loans if they need a little extra.

and parents should be encouraged to contribute out of pocket for an upscale education.

you could even have a basic free and a paid "deluxe" program in the same physical school building. for example a free program might have classes of 30 while a paid program might have classes of 15.

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This is all very complicated and basically just amounts to education paid for by the government. Isn't that all public education really is?

More importantly, why should people have to pay for this "deluxe" when public schools are perfectly capable of creating such a thing on their own, for free?

Dav said:

This is all very complicated and basically just amounts to education paid for by the government. Isn't that all public education really is?

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i WISH that's what it was.

there is no education in public education. only mind control.

people are perfectly capable of educating themselves. the point of public "education" is to prevent them from being able to do that by taking away their time and money.

Dav said:

More importantly, why should people have to pay for this "deluxe" when public schools are perfectly capable of creating such a thing on their own, for free?

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first of all the government is not free. do you know how many zeros there are in a Trillion ? secondly the government is not perfectly capable of anything other than bombing children with napalm.

if the government is so capable then why do presidents go to private universities themselves ?

NEUROSPORT said:

i WISH that's what it was.

there is no education in public education. only mind control.

people are perfectly capable of educating themselves. the point of public "education" is to prevent them from being able to do that by taking away their time and money.

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While I don't disagree with what is underlined, I think you need to choose your words carefully to make your case.

When people hear "mind control", in an argument, their first response is whack job.

marduc said:

I did not realize that the constitution was supposed to dictate any and all government expenditures for the entire future of our nation, especially ones that are integral for its own well being.

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Then, I must assume that you are not particularly Constitution-literate.

The 10th Amendment says, " The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

That makes the Constitution an exclusionary document. That is, if it is not explicitly delineated as a federal function in the Constitution, it is expressly forbidden to the federal government. This position has been the underpinning of most states vs. federal discussions of the Supreme Court. Providing education isn't addressed in the Constitution.

NEUROSPORT said:

i WISH that's what it was.

there is no education in public education. only mind control.

people are perfectly capable of educating themselves. the point of public "education" is to prevent them from being able to do that by taking away their time and money.



first of all the government is not free. do you know how many zeros there are in a Trillion ? secondly the government is not perfectly capable of anything other than bombing children with napalm.

if the government is so capable then why do presidents go to private universities themselves ?

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The government is not inside the classroom in public schools.

The teachers teach the kids, and the government pays the teachers. If any agenda is pushed onto the kids, it is the teachers' agenda alone.

NEUROSPORT said:

PLEASE NOTE THIS IS A PUBLIC POLL

option 1:

government is all knowing, it is always right, it never lies, it has no hidden agendas, sociopaths have no interest in running for office. we are nothing but sinners, we know nothing, our government wouldn't just murder us if we asked it to go away. we must all hand the minds of our children over to the government and let the government form their world view. it worked for Hitler, Stalin and Mao so it can't be wrong.

option 2:

an average adult is either not willing or not able to provide his children with the best possible education. the government should use its massive resources to ASSIST in educating children. this assistance should come in the form of vouchers and the government should be prohibited from running any schools of its own. allowing the government to run its own schools is allowing the state to control the minds of young people and since everybody was once young to effectively control the minds of all of its subjects.

option 3:

education is a good, it is not a right. the government has no responsibility to provide or assist anybody with education. strip dancing is a good way for a young woman to pay for college. we don't need every retard to study astrophysics. somebody has to clean the toilets. let the market sort the suckers out.

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by the way option 1 is what we have today. option 3 is what Ron Paul wants. option 2 is what i want.

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Are those 3 options the only one on offer?

I don't think the Government is all seeing but i do think they have the responsibility to educate the society for the betterment of a country. A educated country is much much better than a few educated who can afford it and the rest dumb as rocks.

The Government does not control the curriculum taught to children but a independent body but the Government can make suggestions (e.g. teach world war 2 in year 9 rather than 8 etc.)

I'd rather have a mixture of one and two. Vouchers or scholarships for those students exceptionally bright enough and send them to Eton or other top class private schools

And a teachers union keeps the Government in check to stop them "brainwashing" people. Teachers afterall individually can influence students much more than any Government ever could

Layla_Z said:

There are lots of things that parents should do but some(many) don't. If we don't spend the tax dollars on education they we will spend tax dollars supporting the uneducated in prison or on welfare.

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Same old lame liberal-extortionist arguments.

No, we're not obligated to pay their education, nor are we obligated to pay for their welfare.

If they want to rot in prison, we can accomodate that, but we should use that Sheriff Joe from Arizona to run them.

Scarecrow Akhbar said:

Same old lame liberal-extortionist arguments.

No, we're not obligated to pay their education, nor are we obligated to pay for their welfare.

If they want to rot in prison, we can accomodate that, but we should use that Sheriff Joe from Arizona to run them.

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You don't want an educated public? That's how socialists get in office you know...

Dav said:

You don't want an educated public? That's how socialists get in office you know...

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With a publicly funded socialist education system, I know.

Before the federal government got into the indoctrination game, the people were jealous of their freedoms and protective of them.

Public education made them forget Franklin's Dictum: "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Dav said:

The government is not inside the classroom in public schools.

The teachers teach the kids, and the government pays the teachers. If any agenda is pushed onto the kids, it is the teachers' agenda alone.

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if i didn't know how young you are i would call you a troll.

that's like saying that actions of a police officer have nothing to do with state and federal law.

you know when Jordan Maxwell talks about not doing too much thinking it really does sound like he is talking about you:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EafH0rq7EF0"]YouTube - Jordan Maxwell (Education)[/ame]

teachers tell you that you need to be disciplined to become successful. that's a lie. it's the government that needs you to be disciplined in order to stay in power. people who succeed in life are usually either school dropouts or ones who have attended private schools.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amCw5FqwjLQ"]YouTube - Education System by David Icke[/ame]

people who teach in high schools, 90% of them are incapable of holding any other job. when their boss tells them what to teach you they comply. sure they front as if they are important or independent - but they are nothing. you won't hear your teacher say that the principal is an idiot. you won't hear your teacher say that the president is an idiot. the only thing you will ever hear is "obey ! obey ! obey ! "

an average teacher is way too stupid to even know what his job is. his job is to turn out obedient, unquestioning sheep. but he is never told this. he is simply given guidelines on what behaviors to encourage and what behaviors to punish. he is also given explanations to use to justify his actions. teachers are dumb. they are only able to maintain illusion of having brain cells because they been teaching the same course for 20 years and you are taking it for the first time.

NEUROSPORT said:

you won't hear your teacher say that the president is an idiot.

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This right here is enough to disqualify everything else you said as crap (and it's mostly just crackpot conspiracy theories as it is.)

I have heard my teachers say this so many times it is ridiculous.

Laila said:

I don't think the Government is all seeing but i do think they have the responsibility to educate the society for the betterment of a country. A educated country is much much better than a few educated who can afford it and the rest dumb as rocks

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so essentially you have the same view of the matter as i had when i was 10 years old and living in USSR.

it also happens to be exactly the view that children are indoctrinated with in public schools ( whether in USSR or USA and apparently in UK as well ).

i hope you're proud of yourself.

i also hope you will never need to actually be able to form your own opinion on anything.

I don't know about your education system but i happen to pride ours being of a higher standard than how it was under USSR tyvm

What part of independent body do you not grasp? And schools/teachers have flexibility in what they teach.

Dav said:

This right here is enough to disqualify everything else you said as crap (and it's mostly just crackpot conspiracy theories as it is.)

I have heard my teachers say this so many times it is ridiculous.

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well i didn't mean it literally. i meant that there are certain things a teacher won't say. i mean your teacher won't tell you what i am telling you.

president being an idiot was an extremely bad example on my part to use. that was very stupid of me to say. actually calling president an idiot is a very common diversion that is purposely used to obscure the reality that he is in fact a puppet.

i wasn't careful with what i was saying.

NEUROSPORT said:

well i didn't mean it literally. i meant that there are certain things a teacher won't say. i mean your teacher won't tell you what i am telling you.

president being an idiot was an extremely bad example on my part to use. that was very stupid of me to say. actually calling president an idiot is a very common diversion that is purposely used to obscure the reality that he is in fact a puppet.

i wasn't careful with what i was saying.

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Very well, then I will trash your post bit by bit:

NEUROSPORT said:

if i didn't know how young you are i would call you a troll.

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Um... why? For stating my opinions?

that's like saying that actions of a police officer have nothing to do with state and federal law.

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Not at all. Teachers are told what to teach in general, the specifics are up to them. Police officers are given a very specific set of laws to enforce.

you know when Jordan Maxwell talks about not doing too much thinking it really does sound like he is talking about you:

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Thanks, you're so kind.

teachers tell you that you need to be disciplined to become successful. that's a lie. it's the government that needs you to be disciplined in order to stay in power.

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Um... what? What are you even trying to say here?

people who succeed in life are usually either school dropouts or ones who have attended private schools.

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Not true, the amount of education, regardless of public or private schooling, is always directly correlated with success.

people who teach in high schools, 90% of them are incapable of holding any other job.

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Source?

when their boss tells them what to teach you they comply. sure they front as if they are important or independent - but they are nothing. you won't hear your teacher say that the principal is an idiot. you won't hear your teacher say that the president is an idiot. the only thing you will ever hear is "obey ! obey ! obey ! "

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I have never heard my teachers say "obey!". You're sounding like a loony conspiracy theorist here.

an average teacher is way too stupid to even know what his job is. his job is to turn out obedient, unquestioning sheep. but he is never told this. he is simply given guidelines on what behaviors to encourage and what behaviors to punish. he is also given explanations to use to justify his actions. teachers are dumb. they are only able to maintain illusion of having brain cells because they been teaching the same course for 20 years and you are taking it for the first time.

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I'm starting to wonder why I even bothered responding, you're so convicted in your insanity. Please, provide examples of how teachers teach kids to be sheep.

Laila said:

I don't know about your education system but i happen to pride ours being of a higher standard than how it was under USSR tyvm

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i hope you're kidding.

i don't know about UK but education in America is a joke compared to the education we received in USSR.

we started physics in 5th grade. in 9th grade we were doing 7th order equations. then i came to USA and learned NOTHING in high school. then i went to a private university and on my 2nd year finally got to revisit the same kind of math i was doing 7 years ago in Kiev. the university i attended here in NY is notorious for being one of the hardest with freshman dropout rate of 70%. people tell horror stories about it here in NY yet back in USSR it would have been considered completely normal.

in USSR if you didn't do well in school your parents would BEAT YOU until you did better. they would beat you as much as it took. in America i would sit in class with my sony minidisc player and headphones on my head and EXPLAIN THE SUBJECT TO MY TEACHER when i was bored.

NEUROSPORT said:

Stuff and things...

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NEUROSPORT.

I have a question for you. What do you suggest as changes in the public school system?

I am tempted towards the idea of no public schools whatsoever, but that would cause issues if a child's parent(s) did not have an interest in schooling their child. I suppose other measures could be taken, such as the various institutions which currently attempt to prevent child abuse.

I personally think that it is completely possible to have a smart teacher make any subject interesting. But I do not know enough about the public school system to know if your allegations are correct (as I was home schooled).

The Mark said:

NEUROSPORT.

I have a question for you. What do you suggest as changes in the public school system?

I am tempted towards the idea of no public schools whatsoever, but that would cause issues if a child's parent(s) did not have an interest in schooling their child.

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you mean parents would send their kid to work in McDonalds instead of school ?

well that is probably a different issue already. Karl Marx considered family to be an institution of SLAVERY for example.

i mean your question sounds like you're asking "how do we protect children form their parents" which i think is a separate question from education.

Dav said:

Please, provide examples of how teachers teach kids to be sheep.

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did you watch the David Icke video i posted ?

what is rewarded in school is not thinking but COMPLIANCE.

for example you are given a definition of the word "patriot" and on a test you are asked to repeat that definition.

now what if you happen to THINK that a patriot is a stupid f*cking degenerate completely brainwashed by the state who derives sexual pleasure from mutilating children by bombing them with napalm and cluster bombs ? that is not the definition you were given so you fail the test. you are then informed that you are a failure.

so you are a *success* when you REPEAT the information given to you and *failure* when you THINK for yourself.

this is how education is structured and that's how it churns out sheep.