So what if Obama is Muslim?

stevenb said:

Except, it's not.

America is a representative republic.

Sorry, just cause you say it's something else doesn't make it that... and is quite ****ing retarded.

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Yes, but people refer to America as a nation, a Democracy, regardless of what it actually may be. Im not saying its something else, am i?

And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country.
John F. Kennedy

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Doubt there was controversy back in the day when Kennedy said this because America isnt a country but a representative republic!

Goshin said:

There's actually a little more to it than that, Laila. As I recall he went to a madrassa, a Muslim religious school, in his youth, but he said "it didn't take". Given our current war-on-terror status, that sort of thing worried some people. Some are still worried by it.

THAT doesn't concern me greatly. IMHO Obama's true religion is Radical Leftism...and that does worry me.

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I think if one was determined to be worried by that, then yeah, they would be. But no-one should be. Unlike the majority of Americans, who have little to no practical experience with Islam, Barack Obama has seen the basic principles, and STILL believes Christianity is the true path for him.

Then again, I don't honestly believe those who argue that Obama has some big secret ties to Islam are arguing in good faith. It's just a convenient topic with which to whip up fear and discontent.

Laila said:

If Christianity or Judaism was just as studied and followed as faithfully, it would be no more tolerant than Islam. All 3 major religions do have perversions and intolerance within their scripture in one sense or the other.

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Sadly, the ecumenicist view that is so popular and politically correct is based on myth -- that there is little difference between major religions.

The three great Monotheistic Religions are indeed quite different in their outlook towards people outside the faith.

Judaism, I have noticed works to find a functional fairness in dealing with people who often persecuted that people.

I’ve included a reference to an essay on the topic below.

Christianity demands much more from its adherents, that they forgive, bless and in many ways serve their tormentors. Representative passages from Scripture are included below.

Islam however – and remember that the Koran is considered to be a perfect and precise transliteration of the express will of Allah, has a somewhat different outlook on those of other outlook.

While there are other passages that suggest a more benign approach to “Infidels” in the Koran and other Islamic texts, my understanding is that these I present are considered by much of the Traditionalist Islamic World to be uncompromising and direct.

The Non-Jew in Jewish Law
Matthew 5:44
Luke 6:35
The Koran

Laila said:

European history demonstrates this, christians were highly blood thirsty during the middle ages for example and the wars between the sects was prevelant as was oppression of women and that was partly because there was a fear of God and more people did follow the text closely.

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This is somewhat true, and largely false.

The Christian Writ is explicit in its directives regarding greed, murder, hatred and aggression.

Remember though that most of the people involved in the more egregious acts of brutality in the name of Christ were illiterates who could not read the Scriptures for themselves. They were easy cats paws for unscrupulous plotters.

Another thing to consider was that at least in the First Crusade, the military action was largely a response the violent Muslim expansion.

Laila said:

The reason why Christianity is better than Islam in a sense is because the power of it has weakened, secularism has taken root in Europe as has common sense which still has not occured in the wider Muslim world.

To say Islam would be more bloody the more religious Muslims got is nonsense. The golden age of Arab and Islamic studies happened during a highly religious period for Muslims whilst Europe had fallen into the dark ages. There was equality for women where there wasn't none for women in the west and this was at a period where Arabic scholars studied and looked closely at Islam and followed and it was in those texts the tolerance and learning came through.

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This again is somewhat, perhaps mostly, mythical.

The fervency of Islamic observance has waxed and waned. Certainly, there are those who assert that Islamic Society throve during periods in which observance waned.

Also, many of the supposed "accomplishments" of Islamic scholarship were actually the work of subjugated people in Muslim territories, or advances adopted from outsiders. "Arabic" Numerals are an excellent example, having originated in India.

Laila said:

The only reason why Islam is at this stage now is because it has turned from religion to a political movement. Political Islam is the danger.

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Traditional (mainstream) Islam allows for no separation of Religion and State. To the Traditionalist, all secular governments in Muslim territory are illegitimate. A large segment of that population is willing to replace them through extreme violence.

In short, Islam is political.

Laila said:

And yes, in the West. Christianity is all lovely and dandy but look in Africa where text is being looked at literally the same way the Qu'ran and hadiths is now by some Muslims. Intolerance is there, witch children in Africa. Christian parents killing children because they are witches, disabled children being shunned seen as a curse from God. Homosexuals too scared to show their face because it is seen as a sin. The west has been enlightened, but there are parts of this world where Christianity is implemented in the same barbaric way Islam is.

No religion is immune from the stupidity and manipulation of human beings.

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This last is certainly true.

But do take a moment to view the hospitals, schools and general improvements to life that Christian actions in the Third World provide as well.

Also, note the Christian response to disasters anywhere to anyone, as opposed to the Muslim response to even largely Muslim disasters. The Christmas Tsunami record is most instructive in this regard.

To summarize. All Religions are not created equal, by any means. Some are on the whole constructive, some on the whole distructive.

To me, it's on par with the National Enquirer or Entertainment Tonight or Weekly, or whatever it is actually called. It's of very little consequence in terms of governance or of something of substance, but quite heavy with your average citizen.

Gardener said:

Why are you infatuated? Islam is extrordinarily conservative, while you say you are liberal.

I would't think there would be much, if any common ground there.

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Unfortunately, being liberal isn't the only quality that makes up my personality. I am infatuated with all religions, really. I have a special infatuation with Islam, however. Whenever I buy books, or look up information I always find myself with something relating to the religion. I myself am not religious, but spiritual. In college I plan to study many things, mainly focusing on the study of religious anthropology.

I would most worry if he were a

1. Mormon
2. Muslim
3. Hindu
4. Eastern Orthodox

OxymoronP said:

I would most worry if he were a

1. Mormon
2. Muslim
3. Hindu
4. Eastern Orthodox

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I can understand dislike of Mormonism because many Americans think "different" or "weird" things are bad and I also understand disliking Islam because many Americans have yet to grow up and rid themselves of their "islamophobia." That's all ok and acceptable ... :roll: :doh

Not sure why you see Eastern Orthodox as a negative thing, but whatever.

But why Hinduism? Why the most open and level-headed religion (well it's not even technically a religion, more like a way of life)? Did a Hindu person make fun of you and now you think all Hindus are like that? Are you adding to your "islamophobia" by creating "hinduphobia?" Or have you even left the country yet?

I can understand dislike of Mormonism because many Americans think "different" or "weird" things are bad

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Wierd doesnt begin to define Mormons.

d and I also understand disliking Islam because many Americans have yet to grow up and rid themselves of their "islamophobia." That's all ok and acceptable ... :roll: :doh

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It has nothing to do with Islamafobia, just Islam doesnt have a good track record is all.

But why Hinduism? Why the most open and level-headed religion (well it's not even technically a religion, more like a way of life)? Did a Hindu person make fun of you and now you think all Hindus are like that? Are you adding to your "islamophobia" by creating "hinduphobia?" Or have you even left the country yet?[/

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The whole caste system appears to be Undemocratic thats all, also the American Beef industry is one of the strongest in the world.

OxymoronP said:

Wierd doesnt begin to define Mormons.

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That's fine, some people just accept it and move on. Some people, like you it seems, refuse to be open-minded. Its unfortunate, and its unfortunate that this kind of ignorance is accepted in the U.S., but it is accepted, that's ok.

It has nothing to do with Islamafobia, just Islam doesnt have a good track record is all.

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That's ok too. A lot of religions don't have a good track record, yet somehow many people overlook it and criticize other religions for the same thing. Unfortunately, even that kind of ignorance is accepted in the U.S., but its okay you'll get over it ... maybe.

The whole caste system appears to be Undemocratic thats all, also the American Beef industry is one of the strongest in the world.

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The caste system is often considered accepted, just as hating muslims, mormons, atheists, etc. is accepted in the U.S. So, it doesn't make sense for you to condemn the above two cultures while condemning social class and religious discrimination. It just doesn't mate .

I would say that the religion believes in the caste system less than actual Indian society does. So essentially, you are attacking the Indian system of government rather than the religion.

The caste system is something that not all Hindus believe in. What you are doing is kind of like saying "Oh, these Christians are undemocratic, therefore all of Christianity is bad." That's extremely narrowminded, you need a huge shovel to get you out of that tunnel my friend.

That's fine, some people just accept it and move on.

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I accept it,I dont want to lock them up in camps or anything, but wouldnt want a President who is wacky like that.

Some people, like you it seems, refuse to be open-minded. Its unfortunate, and its unfortunate that this kind of ignorance is accepted in the U.S., but it is accepted, that's ok.

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Why should I be open minded to a President who believes Jesus was a space alien and that Native Americans are really Jews. I am open minded in the regards that they can practice any lunacy they want as long as it doesnt affect me.

That's ok too. A lot of religions don't have a good track record, yet somehow many people overlook it and criticize other religions for the same thing. Unfortunately, even that kind of ignorance is accepted in the U.S., but its okay you'll get over it ... maybe.

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Are insults part of being open minded? If so then your doing a good job of it. In any case Islam is dangerous and this is backed up by the situation in nearly all Muslim nations. So I wouldnt want that here, at least with the other religions we know what to expect.

The caste system is often considered accepted, just as hating muslims, mormons, atheists, etc. is accepted in the U.S. So, it doesn't make sense for you to condemn the above two cultures while condemning social class and religious discrimination. It just doesn't mate .

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Mate, dont put words in my mouth. Where have I said I hate anyone? My my isnt it your bedtime yet?

I would say that the religion believes in the caste system less than actual Indian society does. So essentially, you are attacking the Indian system of government rather than the religion.

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Do you know anything about Hinduism?

The caste system is something that not all Hindus believe in.

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Are you really so ignorant?

Are insults part of being open minded? If so then your doing a good job of it. In any case Islam is dangerous and this is backed up by the situation in nearly all Muslim nations. So I wouldnt want that here, at least with the other religions we know what to expect.

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That's awkward thinking.

Mate, dont put words in my mouth. Where have I said I hate anyone? My my isnt it your bedtime yet?

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I didn't say you hate muslims, I'm just saying that its a concept that's widely accepted in the U.S. and basic dislike for the religion, which seems to be your opinion, is stems from the hate and accepted. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying your personal opinion stems from hate.

And what are you talking about when you say "bedtime?"

Do you know anything about Hinduism?

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Yes, I know a lot about Hinduism. Its true man, the caste system is now more a societal thing than a religious thing.

Are you really so ignorant?

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Talk to Hindus in the U.S., maybe not all of them think that way, but many do.

Most who believe in the vigorous caste system mainly reside in India and that too in rural society on the majority. Many who live in urban society or big cities don't "believe" in the caste system, but they don't necessarily go out and protest it. Its accepted in India, I agree its a horrible thing, but you should not couple that with Hinduism and then denounce the entire religion. What you're doing is like a non-Christian saying "the Templars were wrong for doing what they did during the crusades, therefore the entire religion is wrong." You're amplifying the situation, something that many Americans do in regards to Islam.

That's awkward thinking too.

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That is an ignorant, you are not open minded! Not at all!:lol:

I didn't say you hate muslims, I'm just saying that its a concept that's widely accepted in the U.S. and basic dislike for the religion, which seems to be your opinion, is related and accepted.

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There is a reason for this dislike?

And what are you talking about when you say "bedtime?"

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You are acting like a child.

Yes, I know a lot about Hinduism. Its true man, the caste system is now more a societal thing than a religious thing.

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The caste system is a cital part of the Hindu religion, whether it has become a social concept as well is meaningless really in this debate.

Talk to Hindus in the U.S., maybe not all of them think that way, but many do.

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If they dont follow the Caste system they are not Hindus.

Most who believe in the vigorous caste system mainly reside in India and that too in rural society on the majority. Many who live in urban society or big cities don't "believe" in the caste system, but they don't necessarily go out and protest it. Its accepted in India, I agree its a horrible thing, but you should not couple that with Hinduism and then denounce the entire religion.

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Why shouldnt I couple the main concept of a religion to that religion????

What you're doing is like a non-Christian saying "the Templars were wrong for doing what they did during the crusades, therefore the entire religion is wrong." You're amplifying the situation, something that many Americans do in regards to Islam.

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Templars were not a seperate religious group. Please educate yourself before jumping into the deep water.

You are acting like a child.

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No I am not, I already told you that I am not putting words in your mouth. Remember, I am not choosing to call you a child.

The caste system is a cital part of the Hindu religion, whether it has become a social concept as well is meaningless really in this debate.

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If they dont follow the Caste system they are not Hindus.

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Ok, you're stepping into a whole new pool of water here, the "I consider myself part of this religion because of this" pool. Everyone has a different perception of their own religion and they still consider themselves to be part of religion. We could argue for hours about what constitutes a person as a "real" Christian or Muslim or Hindu. The differences of opinion is where people break off into sects or completely different perceptions of the same general religion.

For example Catholics and Protestants have very differing viewpoints, yet both still consider themselves Christians.

I mean, I DON'T EVEN BELIEVE IN GOD and I'm still considering myself Hindu.

My point is that you are taking one portion of the religion that not all Hindus believe in and amplifying it to associate it to all Hindus.

Why shouldnt I couple the main concept of a religion to that religion????

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No you can do that but I'm just saying its wrong to couple it and associate it to the entire religion and every Hindu.

Templars were not a seperate religious group. Please educate yourself before jumping into the deep water.

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Wow, I never said that. In fact I was basically saying the exact opposite. They did what they did in the name of Christianity, or so they believed. So what I was doing was using that as an example of something that people could twist and say that it represents ALL of Christianity, which I know it does not; it was an example.

You completely misunderstood my wording. I'm not trying to backlash or criticize you, but I'm telling you honestly, please do not twist my words, because then I have to go back and explain something that I already explained.

I really want to make sure you understand what I am saying so let me know something about you. Do you have a religion? If so what religion do you consider yourself to be a part of?

No I am not, I already told you that I am not putting words in your mouth. Remember, I am not choosing to call you a child.

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No u.

For example Catholics and Protestants have very differing viewpoints, yet both still consider themselves Christians.

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Right but there wasnt a division in the Hindu religion, what happend was the creation of Buddism.

I mean, I DON'T EVEN BELIEVE IN GOD and I'm still considering myself Hindu.

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Right because you should believe in multiple Gods if your a Hindu.

My point is that you are taking one portion of the religion that not all Hindus believe in and amplifying it to associate it to all Hindus.

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I am sorry that you disagree, but Caste system is an integral part of Hinduism. Its like saying I am Christian but I dont think Jesus existed.

Right but there wasnt a division in the Hindu religion, what happend was the creation of Buddism.

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Yes you are right.

Right because you should believe in multiple Gods if your a Hindu.

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See this is my point, if I continue to argue this with you we would dive into that ongoing debate about what constitutes a believer. What I'm telling you is that everyone has a different perception of their religion, and at this point you are just assuming you know how every Hindu should be.

We are both accusing the other of being narrowminded, whatever. What I'm telling you is that you are being narrowminded because you are acting as if you control who is a Hindu and who is not. Yet what I am saying is that that concept is impossible to utilize because we are humans and all of us perceive things differently in our own minds.

You are saying "no, this is how it is, this is how it should be for everyone, forget your opinion, this is how it is." This is exactly what is wrong with your argument, and you expect to accept this about humanity.

I mean, what if I said "OxymoronP, you are not human because of this and that." Now wouldn't you disagree with that? I mean you are obviously human and it makes no sense for me to expect that you would accept the fact that
you are not human right? You are basically doing the same thing. You are expecting me, as well as all followers of religions, to accept the fact that you must follow one set of strict guidelines in order to be considered a Hindu or Christian or what have you.

I am sorry that you disagree, but Caste system is an integral part of Hinduism. Its like saying I am Christian but I dont think Jesus existed.

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Yeah and I'm saying that's what people do. In fact I know someone who doesn't worship Jesus, but still considers herself a Christian because of her belief in Christian philosophies. Actually that's what I do, I consider myself a Hindu and yet do not believe in god(s) because I follow certain philosphies and morals displayed in that religion. I call it agnostic Hinduism. One of these philosophies is accepting the beliefs of others as different but not denouncing or criticizing them without due cause.

Also, it still seems like you are misunderstanding me, so please answer my questions so that I can explain myself better:

Do you have a religion? If so, what religion do you consider yourself to be a part of?

See this is my point, if I continue to argue this with you we would dive into that ongoing debate about what constitutes a believer. What I'm telling you is that everyone has a different perception of their religion, and at this point you are just assuming you know how every Hindu should be.

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If you dont follow a religions main themes then you dont really follow the religion you simply associate with the culture.

You are saying "no, this is how it is, this is how it should be for everyone, forget your opinion, this is how it is." This is exactly what is wrong with your argument, and you expect to accept this about humanity.

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Religion isnt something where you can pick and choose. Either you follow it or you do not.

I mean, what if I said "OxymoronP, you are not human because of this and that." Now wouldn't you disagree with that? I mean you are obviously human and it makes no sense for me to expect that you would accept the fact that
you are not human right? You are basically doing the same thing. You are expecting me, as well as all followers of religions, to accept the fact that you must follow one set of strict guidelines in order to be considered a Hindu or Christian or what have you.

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If I told you I am a human but I dont need to eat,drink or breathe then I wouldnt really be a human.

Yeah and I'm saying that's what people do. In fact I know someone who doesn't worship Jesus, but still considers herself a Christian because of her belief in Christian philosophies. Actually that's what I do, I consider myself a Hindu and yet do not believe in god(s) because I follow certain philosphies and morals displayed in that religion. I call it agnostic Hinduism. One of these philosophies is accepting the beliefs of others as different but not denouncing or criticizing them without due cause.

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If you dont accept Jesus then you are not Christian. You are not Hindu, you are agnostic with affinity toward the Hindu society.

Do you have a religion? If so, what religion do you consider yourself to be a part of?

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I am a Neo Pagan/Shamanism.

kaya'08 said:

Theres reports flying about everywhere that Obama is not an American citizen, there is no birth certificate record of him being from Hawai, and above all, that Obama has adopted the faith of his father, and is actually a muslim.

Now, America claims to be the land of the free, and the most modernized, liberal country, so why does the media feel like its a scandal that Obama may be a Muslim, and why are so many American citizens sensitive to the issue? Why have many in the American public adopted the attitude of the media and too do believe if he is a Muslim, it is a scandal? So what if he WAS a Muslim? How would the populace react if he was an open Atheist or Agnostic? Is religion, and this backwards way of thinking, still very prevelant in the most Westernized country in the world?

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Well,,,other than the fact he's been denying being a Muslim the whole time,,,which would make him a Liar. No surprise there though...:lol: And ,,, the fact that Radical Islam is at War with the Western World, makes it rather dangerous for America...

True?

I guess for the people who believe in freedom of religion it is time to put your money were your mouth is.

Realist1 said:

Well,,,other than the fact he's been denying being a Muslim the whole time,,,which would make him a Liar. No surprise there though...:lol: And ,,, the fact that Radical Islam is at War with the Western World, makes it rather dangerous for America...

True?

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It depends. If he is a muslim, yet approves of the political theory of secularism, and realizes like many muslims do that the Middle East is full with corrupted, extremist leaders and terrorists, and acknowledges those very people pose a threat to his country and all in it (christians, jews and muslims), then i dont think it would be dangerous for America if he was a Muslim. And even so, he isnt Christian. I dont consider people "Christians/Muslims/Jews/etc" if they are only that in theory and not practice.

For example, in Turkey, 98% claim they are Muslims, yet less that 13% of that entire population actually practice Islam in their homes. A bit like the UK, only a small minority of all those who claim to be Anglican are actually Anglican in practice and not just say they are.

PS: For all those who voted that you'd care if he was a Muslim or Athiest or Agnostic, why would you be concerned if he was Athiest/Agnostic? Is there an actual reason behind this or is it just sheer religious blabber on your part? Explain.

OxymoronP said:

Wierd doesnt begin to define Mormons.



It has nothing to do with Islamafobia, just Islam doesnt have a good track record is all.





The whole caste system appears to be Undemocratic thats all, also the American Beef industry is one of the strongest in the world.

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Really the only thing weird about Mormons is the caricature of it you have built in your mind. If it was explained and known as it is it is not that weird.
Mormons are as American as apple pie and Steve Young. And we're good breeders so another generation or two your political concerns may not matter.

Steve young image by Chino_Blanco on Photobucket

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ervaWt03Z3w"]YouTube - Mormon's Theology cartoon[/ame]

This is what Mormonism is about, if you dont think its looney then it is your issue.

The only thing loony is that you actually believe that is an accurate portrayal of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

laska said:

The only thing loony is that you actually believe that is an accurate portrayal of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

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What part of the video is not accurate?

Do you really want me to list everything, it would be a long list. How come you ridicule Mormons and you don't even have the knowledge to know just how inaccurate it is.