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Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

What's your opinion of Affirmative Action in the college admissions process?

  • I'm in favor of affirmative action.

    Votes: 5 10.6%

  • I don't think it should be used for criteria.

    Votes: 37 78.7%

  • I have no opinion.

    Votes: 1 2.1%

  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 4 8.5%
  • Total voters
    47
RightinNYC said:
Do you honestly think that the value of an individual to a classroom/educational institution can be completely encapsulated by a number and a resume?
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The institution is being paid to provide value to the student.
 
SA said:
Who gets to decide the limits of zealotry of this racism, the victim or the beneficiary?
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How about we do this, I"ll answer this question and you can go back and answer the following: "How would you promote diversity at a University?"

Regarding your question: the Administration of a University determines the degree to which they utilize a diversification program. They are, after all, responsible for the University's 'customers'.

SA said:
How many blacks need reverse racism to get into a course of study as useless as African American Studies? Answer: None.
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If you believe that simply being black is sufficient enough to be accepted into an AA Studies program then you are mistaken.

SA said:
How many people wanting to study something as useless as Islam would enroll in a university with no specimens to study? If they're that stupid, then it's their problem, and guess what? It doesn't justify racism.

Basicly, you can't define your acceptance of racism, and you have to come up with bogus examples.
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Please. You began this particular off-shoot by giving examples of classes where diversity is, in your view, unnecessary, I simply responded. It isn't my concern if you do not like my examples. I'll ask again, can you see no instance in which diversity aids the learning process? I've defined my parameters for a proper diversification program several times, particularly in my discussion with NYC. Go back and read it if you'd like.

SA said:
A qualified white med-school applicant is passed over for a lesser qualified black applicant (we are now discussing how Affirmative Action really works, not your fantasy land of wonderful loving people). How does a black freshman from an American high school add useful "die-versity" to the medical school experience?
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If you'd read my parameters for a good diversification program you would know that I do not support the acceptance of an inferior minority student over a better white student. Evidently you haven't.

-NC
 
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this i s bad idea.the only universitet you can get to i n Québec that is english language i s Mcgill.all universitet you must speak french.
 
RightinNYC said:
Do you honestly think that the value of an individual to a classroom/educational institution can be completely encapsulated by a number and a resume?

There are plenty of very good reasons for wanting students with a diversity of views, races, socio-economic statuses, and backgrounds.

A school composed of 100 rich white conservative guys from Greenwich is going to be a pretty ****ing boring school, as would be a school of 100 poor black liberal women from Bed-Stuy. The students at each of those schools would leave with a diminished ability to see other viewpoints and interact with different types of individuals.
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Just a number? No. Just a resume? No. Both together along with a questionaire? Yes.

And what is boring and what is not is subjective.

There are other ways to learn about peoples viewpoints. Even in school. For example teaching about other cultures, having successful, and even not so successfull folks come in to talk to the class while the students ask questions.

When not in school life itself will bring various people of various cultures into a persons life. You learn your whole life. Not just while in school.

Lets put it this way. Who's going to work harder. The person that had everything handed to them? Or the person that worked hard to get where they are. AA hands things to people that don't deserve them because they did not work for it. It is the person that will work harder that will help out the community more than the person that had things handed to them.

Being the minority race in a country is no excuse for AA. With out AA everyone in this country has the same chance to go some place. If they work for it. It doesn't matter if you're white, black, hispanic, asian, arab, or a purple and pink polka dotted being from the planet Zeneb.

With AA people get things handed to them just because they are of a different race. How does that sound fair to all those that didn't get picked even though they had better grades, better attitude, and a better work ethic, than the one who had it handed to him/her on a plate took the only available spot open.
 
RightinNYC said:
It's incredibly counter productive when it's based exclusively on race.

Is Affirmative Action at Law School Actually Hurting Minorities? - Law Blog - WSJ



I believe that a limited form of AA based on things like class, race, background, etc. can serve the purpose of increasing diversity, which is indeed a valuable concern.
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To level I agree.

If we ask ourselves WHY exactly there is AA it is not because of race directly, but because the people who are minorities have a smaller ownership of wealth compared to their population then whites.

So... if anything AA should give prefference to children of POOR parents. I think a white child who is stuck in the cycle of poverty is as bad as any other child in that situation.

The degree in which AA for wealth can be argued, but I suppose some form of prefference for those people, if a schools allows it, is acceptable.

I am not too completely sure though.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
A qualified white med-school applicant is passed over for a lesser qualified black applicant (we are now discussing how Affirmative Action really works, not your fantasy land of wonderful loving people). How does a black freshman from an American high school add useful "die-versity" to the medical school experience?

Correct answer: it doesn't.
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Presumably, because the black med student has:

1) Struggled harder than the average white med student, and thus has an equal or superior level of intelligence and ability to succeed if those obstacles had not been there, and
2) Will improve the medical field as a whole by increasing the number of black doctors, which has an impact on how black patients are treated.

Scarecrow Akhbar said:
The institution is being paid to provide value to the student.
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And the institution can do whatever the **** it wants with its money.

Kal'Stang said:
Just a number? No. Just a resume? No. Both together along with a questionaire? Yes.

And what is boring and what is not is subjective.
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No, white guys from Greenwich are objectively boring.

There are other ways to learn about peoples viewpoints. Even in school. For example teaching about other cultures, having successful, and even not so successfull folks come in to talk to the class while the students ask questions.
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Yea, having a token successful black come in to speak to a bunch of white kids will definitely have the same impact as the white kids living, studying, hanging out, and attending class with other black kids.

When not in school life itself will bring various people of various cultures into a persons life. You learn your whole life. Not just while in school.

Lets put it this way. Who's going to work harder. The person that had everything handed to them? Or the person that worked hard to get where they are. AA hands things to people that don't deserve them because they did not work for it. It is the person that will work harder that will help out the community more than the person that had things handed to them.
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This of course assumes that the average person receiving AA simply sat on their ass and did no work to get where they are.

With AA people get things handed to them just because they are of a different race. How does that sound fair to all those that didn't get picked even though they had better grades, better attitude, and a better work ethic, than the one who had it handed to him/her on a plate took the only available spot open.
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Probably as bad as it feels to be someone who doesn't get the one open job because a company decides against giving them an interview due to a "black" name.

nerv14 said:
To level I agree.

If we ask ourselves WHY exactly there is AA it is not because of race directly, but because the people who are minorities have a smaller ownership of wealth compared to their population then whites.

So... if anything AA should give prefference to children of POOR parents. I think a white child who is stuck in the cycle of poverty is as bad as any other child in that situation.

The degree in which AA for wealth can be argued, but I suppose some form of prefference for those people, if a schools allows it, is acceptable.

I am not too completely sure though.
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I would agree with this to a large degree.
 
Great Idea, give a small number of people the power to decide admissions based on nothing but race. Give a small number of people the power to decide who is black and who is white based on nothing but their opinons. Is a person with 1/2 African American blood, black? 1/4,1/8,1/16? Is the tone of the color the deciding factor? If so how dark is considered black? What is latino? Is a white person born In Puerto Rico Latino? Is an African immigrant considered Black? If so, then why do they deserve a special adjustment if they never were victims of slavery?
 
NortheastCynic said:
How about we do this, I"ll answer this question and you can go back and answer the following: "How would you promote diversity at a University?"
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I wouldn't promote diversity, it's a bull**** issue.

I would promote academic excellence.

It's the guy standing in front of the class that's paid to teach, not the students.


NortheastCynic said:
Regarding your question: the Administration of a University determines the degree to which they utilize a diversification program. They are, after all, responsible for the University's 'customers'.
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And all that means is the school gets to determine how racist they want to be.

NortheastCynic said:
If you believe that simply being black is sufficient enough to be accepted into an AA Studies program then you are mistaken.
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Yes, many times now they also have to have a hispanic name, just to confuse things.

NortheastCynic said:
Please. You began this particular off-shoot by giving examples of classes where diversity is, in your view, unnecessary, I simply responded. It isn't my concern if you do not like my examples. I'll ask again, can you see no instance in which diversity aids the learning process? I've defined my parameters for a proper diversification program several times, particularly in my discussion with NYC. Go back and read it if you'd like.
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There's no such thing as a "proper" diversification program, there's only racism.

NortheastCynic said:
If you'd read my parameters for a good diversification program you would know that I do not support the acceptance of an inferior minority student over a better white student. Evidently you haven't.
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Evidently you don't understand how Affirmative Action works in the real world.

If the applicant isn't academically inferior, there's no need to give him special favors based on his skin color or other silly and equally irrelevant parameters.

The ONLY point of Affirmative Action is to shove the academically inferior applicant into a class he does not belong in. They can call it diversity to make it sound like they're doing something besides filling racial quotas, and the saps can fall for that if they want, but the truth is...they're filling quotas.
 
nerv14 said:
To level I agree.

If we ask ourselves WHY exactly there is AA it is not because of race directly, but because the people who are minorities have a smaller ownership of wealth compared to their population then whites.

So... if anything AA should give prefference to children of POOR parents. I think a white child who is stuck in the cycle of poverty is as bad as any other child in that situation.

The degree in which AA for wealth can be argued, but I suppose some form of prefference for those people, if a schools allows it, is acceptable.

I am not too completely sure though.
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If we ask ourselves why we're stuck with Affirmative Action, we discover that enough politicians sold out to buy minority votes to make it happen.

That's why.

It is a racist program in complete violation of the Fourteenth Amendment's guarantee of equal protection before the law.
 
OxymoronP said:
Great Idea, give a small number of people the power to decide admissions based on nothing but race. Give a small number of people the power to decide who is black and who is white based on nothing but their opinons. Is a person with 1/2 African American blood, black? 1/4,1/8,1/16? Is the tone of the color the deciding factor? If so how dark is considered black? What is latino? Is a white person born In Puerto Rico Latino? Is an African immigrant considered Black? If so, then why do they deserve a special adjustment if they never were victims of slavery?
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Luckily, this isn't even remotely close to how admissions decisions are made.
 
RightinNYC said:
Presumably, because the black med student has:

1) Struggled harder than the average white med student, and thus has an equal or superior level of intelligence and ability to succeed if those obstacles had not been there, and
2) Will improve the medical field as a whole by increasing the number of black doctors, which has an impact on how black patients are treated.
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In the Bakke Decision, the replacement quota-filler was not more qualified, and did indeed wind up killing patients in his socially essential plastic surgery liposuction business in Compton.

So, not, AA didn't help anyone in that case.

So you're making imaginary presumptions to justify the existence of a racist quota system.

RightinNYC said:
And the institution can do whatever the **** it wants with its money.
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Not when it's taxpayer dollars. Now I know the race baiters, poverty pimps and pretend conservatives all feel that racism against white is the greatest invention since pumpernickel bread, but even though bigoted courts have ruled otherwise, racism still violates the Fourteenth Amendment.

RightinNYC said:
Yea, having a token successful black come in to speak to a bunch of white kids will definitely have the same impact as the white kids living, studying, hanging out, and attending class with other black kids.
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Then why do college flaming libtards always protest any appearance by Ward Connerly?

RightinNYC said:
This of course assumes that the average person receiving AA simply sat on their ass and did no work to get where they are.
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If they were academically superior, they wouldn't have needed the special hand up from the bigots.

RightinNYC said:
Probably as bad as it feels to be someone who doesn't get the one open job because a company decides against giving them an interview due to a "black" name.
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So you're saying racism is okay, so long as it's not against a brother.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
In the Bakke Decision, the replacement quota-filler was not more qualified, and did indeed wind up killing patients in his socially essential plastic surgery liposuction business in Compton.

So, not, AA didn't help anyone in that case.
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Link?

Not when it's taxpayer dollars. Now I know the race baiters, poverty pimps and pretend conservatives all feel that racism against white is the greatest invention since pumpernickel bread, but even though bigoted courts have ruled otherwise, racism still violates the Fourteenth Amendment.
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And fortunately, AA doesn't.

Then why do college flaming libtards always protest any appearance by Ward Connerly?
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Because "college flaming libtards" are ****ing morons who freak out whenever anyone espouses a philosophy they disagree with?

Not sure what you expect me to say here.

If they were academically superior, they wouldn't have needed the special hand up from the bigots.
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You obviously missed the whole "other obstacles" point of my statement.

So you're saying racism is okay, so long as it's not against a brother.
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Yea, that's exactly what I'm saying. You sure got me.
 
RightinNYC said:
Presumably, because the black med student has:

1) Struggled harder than the average white med student, and thus has an equal or superior level of intelligence and ability to succeed if those obstacles had not been there, and
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What exactly are the obstacles?

RightinNYC said:
2) Will improve the medical field as a whole by increasing the number of black doctors, which has an impact on how black patients are treated.
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It's been my experiance that money determines how a patient is treated. Not their skin color.

RightinNYC said:
And the institution can do whatever the **** it wants with its money.
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If it can do whatever it wants with it's money then why do they HAVE to diversify?

RightinNYC said:
No, white guys from Greenwich are objectively boring.
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According to you. I would actually be interested to know what a bunch of white guys from Greenwhich would have to say.

Again what is boring and is not boring is subjective. I like Online games, you like single player games. (note that was just an example. I have no idea what you actually like and don't like.)

RightinNYC said:
Yea, having a token successful black come in to speak to a bunch of white kids will definitely have the same impact as the white kids living, studying, hanging out, and attending class with other black kids.
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May not be as effective but it would still help. And be alot better than forcing what is in essence a company to take someone that they ordinarily would not take. I notice you didn't comment on my "life learning" comment. Why?

RightinNYC said:
This of course assumes that the average person receiving AA simply sat on their ass and did no work to get where they are.
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No it doesn't. They can still work hard, but having something handed to you is still not as good as earning something for yourself. Earning something for yourself not only teaches you how to accomplish something, but it also teaches you self responsibility instead of reliance on someone else to get the job done.

RightinNYC said:
Probably as bad as it feels to be someone who doesn't get the one open job because a company decides against giving them an interview due to a "black" name.
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This assumes racism. You are in effect here saying that two wrongs equal a right. In other words it's bad to deny someone a job because of they are one race, but it is ok to accept someone because of them being another different race. IE a contradiciton. Sorry but you can't have one without contradicting yourself in the face of the other. But you can be against both.
 
OxymoronP said:
Really? So how are decisions made?
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Contrary to this:

Great Idea, give a small number of people the power to decide admissions based on nothing but race. Give a small number of people the power to decide who is black and who is white based on nothing but their opinons. Is a person with 1/2 African American blood, black? 1/4,1/8,1/16? Is the tone of the color the deciding factor? If so how dark is considered black? What is latino? Is a white person born In Puerto Rico Latino? Is an African immigrant considered Black? If so, then why do they deserve a special adjustment if they never were victims of slavery?
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applicants self-identify their race.
 
OxymoronP said:
So if I put African American when I am not, they wont verify this?
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Will be kind of hard to not verify it when you go in for the standard interview. Remember any lying will normally automatically disqualify you. If however you just don't answer the question then......
 
Kal'Stang said:
What exactly are the obstacles?
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Poverty, prejudice, etc.

By no means is race a perfect proxy for these things, but it's not a terrible one either. I would like to see an AA system based more on class and background, but race is still an important component.

It's been my experiance that money determines how a patient is treated. Not their skin color.
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Which doesn't change the fact that many black patients feel more comfortable with black doctors, like individuals of all races do. Having an increased supply of black doctors increases health outcomes among that group.

If it can do whatever it wants with it's money then why do they HAVE to diversify?
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Who said they have to?

Are you under the assumption that schools use AA because the government is forcing them to?

According to you. I would actually be interested to know what a bunch of white guys from Greenwhich would have to say.
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Trust me, they're boring.

The point is that any homogenous group is relatively limited in its perspectives.

May not be as effective but it would still help. And be alot better than forcing what is in essence a company to take someone that they ordinarily would not take.
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Again, nobody forces these schools to do anything. This is a pretty important point.

I notice you didn't comment on my "life learning" comment. Why?
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I don't know what you're trying to say. You're right that people will learn their whole life, but it's important to start early.

No it doesn't. They can still work hard, but having something handed to you is still not as good as earning something for yourself. Earning something for yourself not only teaches you how to accomplish something, but it also teaches you self responsibility instead of reliance on someone else to get the job done.
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Again, you're operating from the assumption that people benefitting from AA are not working hard already and are just having things handed to them.

This may come as a surprise, but AA is not as huge of a boost as one might think. The average black student getting into Harvard Med School with an AA boost is not a moron. They busted their ass and would have gotten into a good med school (if not Harvard) even without the boost.

This assumes racism. You are in effect here saying that two wrongs equal a right. In other words it's bad to deny someone a job because of they are one race, but it is ok to accept someone because of them being another different race. IE a contradiciton. Sorry but you can't have one without contradicting yourself in the face of the other. But you can be against both.
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It's not an assumption, it's a reality.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Why should a question of what race you are even be on ANY aplication?
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For all the reasons we've been discussing for the past 100 posts.

OxymoronP said:
So if I put African American when I am not, they wont verify this?
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They're not going to ask for a blood test. They'll likely check it against your college applications and the records from your high school if there's any doubt. If you've lied, you're out.
 
They'll likely check it against your college applications and the records from your high school if there's any doubt. If you've lied, you're out.
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I can claim I found out my thirteen uncle on my mothers side is half Indian half Iriqous and a quater Australian Aborigines.
 
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