Hey NYC, I'm back,
NYC said:
The reason I cited those two cases was not to claim that schools currently use point systems, but to highlight how heavily they weighed race in their admission decisions.
Fair enough, I, like you dislike and disagree with the implementation of over-zealous AA. Diversifying, like anything else can be done poorly and well. You certainly have cited examples of it doing terribly. So I'm with you in that regard.
NYC said:
You're 100% right when you say that the vast majority of schools use holistic systems instead of point systems. My point is that those holistic systems still place a very significant emphasis on race as compared to most other non-academic factors (and many academic factors as well).
Again here we seem to be on the same page, I do not believe that ethnicity or race should
trump academics, only supplement academic info when selecting a candidate for acceptance.
NYC said:
After Gratz, UM was not permitted to use the point system any longer. However, there was not a drastic shift in the percentage of students who were minorities. The logical conclusion to draw from this is that they simply maneuvered around Gratz by inserting their existing preferences into the framework upheld in Grutter.
Here we go agreeing again. Again, I don't believe ethnicity should trump academics, only supplement them.
So it appears as though we hold similar views here, would this be a safe, agreeable conclusion:
Voluntary diversifying programs are acceptable at private schools so long as race/ethnicity does not trump the academic qualities of the student . It should only be used to promote diversity in instances when there is a high degree of disparity regarding a given ethnic group.
Sound good?
SA,
SA said:
And when the discrimination is based on the color of someone's skin, then it's racist, pure and simple.
No, it is not. Racism, by definition implies that a given race is superior to another. That assumption is not made here. The logic of AA, in my mind, is simple:
-Diversity is good
-Promoting diversity is therefore also good
-In instances when a borderline candidate is also a member of a disproportionately underrepresented ethnicity, accepting that individual would promote diversity.
SA, if there were two students with identical scores and GPAs, how would you go about choosing one?
SA said:
We're discussing institutionalized racism.
You're in favor of it.
May I ask what you would do to encourage diversity at a University?
SA said:
So what you're saying is that the programatic philosophy that says "when confronted with the choice between two otherwise equally qualified applicants, choose the one hardest to find in a coal cellar at midnight with the lights out", that the white guys make out best.
At Northeastern we just used a dark room, but a coal cellar isn't a bad idea.
You're making the mistake of only viewing this through the prism of racial minorities at a predominately white school. If a suburban black kid coming form an affluent family with very little interesting life experiences is matched up against a white kid who has lived a rough life, persevered through challenges and has equal scores/GPA, the white kid should get the call. Additionally, in the case of minority-majority schools, the same may be done for various white ethnicities.
What I'm saying is the issue isn't so...
Wait for it....
Black and white.
:doh
SA said:
And the lesson the white male who studied hard, got good grades, but had the total misfortune to be born to sober parents with jobs, what does he learn when he can't get into school? How is this process either reasonable or fair?
When he can't get into school? You mean when he can't get into A school, correct. If you have a 3.5 GPA and a 1300 SAT, you're going to college. Period. So the question as it is currently worded does not make sense.
-NC