Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

According to Samuel Huntington, Islam is incompatible with religion because
- there is no separation with church & state in these countries
- democracy is not present in their culture
- the Koran itself is contrary to democracy
...

Do you think he's right or wrong? Why?

Islam, as with the other monotheisms and indeed, all other religions, is not composed of wide-ranging homogeneity and will be compatible or incompatible with democracy to the extent that its more liberal or conservative principles are implemented.

No moreso than any other religion.

Albania, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Algeria, Tunisia, Senegal, Mali, Turkey, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Palestine, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Indonesia...these countries ALL have democracies, or had democracies at some point in the last 100 years. Not many of their democracies look like American democracy...but that's to be expected, as their culture is very different.

bub said:

According to Samuel Huntington, Islam is incompatible with religion because
- there is no separation with church & state in these countries
- democracy is not present in their culture
- the Koran itself is contrary to democracy
...

Do you think he's right or wrong? Why?

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Consider the three reasons you state above:

• there is no separation with church & state in these countries
  Where there has been no separation between church and state in Christian countries, the result has been something less than a democratic society. Theocracy is never democratic, irrespective of the particular foundational theology.
• democracy is not present in their culture
  Culture is more than religion. Democracy was not and has not been a cultural characteristic of Russia, for example.
• the Koran itself is contrary to democracy
  And the Bible commands the slave to obey his master. None of the great religions of the world elucidate or advocate the principles of democracy.

Democracy is a civic concept, and is neither complimented nor condemned by religion.

Afghanistan and Iraq are examples of nations that were both democracies until their governments suffered coups sponsored by our friends in the West.

Democracy is something that the West does not want the Middle East to have or maintain so long as the people there are anti-West and have input into which foreign nations get their support. Most of this centers around oil or strategic support.

If you look at historical examples of countries that wanted to nationalize their oil and restrict trade with the West, such as Iran, you'll find that the West (particularly the U.S.) immediately sponsored coups in those nations. Dictators are much more easily controlled.

Islam is just the most recent political scapegoat for the above factors. Western nations don't want their people thinking about the truth, after all.

Depends on which branch of Islam you are thinking of.

In Shi'a Islam, no. Think of the Caliphate. The person to lead all Muslims in Shi'a Islam would be determined by geneology and lineage from Prophet Muhammad. It would be more similar to a monarchy.

In Sunni Islam, yes. Think of the Caliphate. The person to lead all Muslims in Sunni Islam is determined by the community. Is that not democracy?

I do not understand how it can be an Monotheistic culture and accept alternatives.

It would be considered a hazard to the health of the individual to not accept Allah. They would treat that person like we treat the mentally ill.

Degreez said:

In Shi'a Islam, no. Think of the Caliphate. The person to lead all Muslims in Shi'a Islam would be determined by geneology and lineage from Prophet Muhammad. It would be more similar to a monarchy.

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Iran, Iraq, and Lebanon are all Shiite, and they all have quasi-democracies. Granted, none of those countries are as representative of their people as, say, the United States of America. But they're certainly more representative than many Sunni states. I don't see how you can say that Shia Islam is incompatible with democracy, when there are examples to the contrary that exist right now.

bub said:

According to Samuel Huntington, Islam is incompatible with religion because
- there is no separation with church & state in these countries
- democracy is not present in their culture
- the Koran itself is contrary to democracy
...

Do you think he's right or wrong? Why?

Click to expand...

Islamism is certainly incompatible with democracy as would be a literal understanding of Islam, however, I feel that one can be a secular Muslim and that Muslims can have a separation of Mosque and state so long as Islamist parties are either banned (such as, in Turkey) or do not enjoy large popular support (such as in Yemen).

Kandahar said:

Iran, Iraq, and Lebanon are all Shiite, and they all have quasi-democracies. Granted, none of those countries are as representative of their people as, say, the United States of America. But they're certainly more representative than many Sunni states. I don't see how you can say that Shia Islam is incompatible with democracy, when there are examples to the contrary that exist right now.

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Iran is antithetical to democracy, their system is theocratic at its core and the elections are a farce because it is the theocrats who hold the true power within that country not the elected officials.

Orius said:

Afghanistan and Iraq are examples of nations that were both democracies until their governments suffered coups sponsored by our friends in the West.

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Um no not at all.

Agent Ferris said:

Iran is antithetical to democracy, their system is theocratic at its core and the elections are a farce because it is the theocrats who hold the true power within that country not the elected officials.

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Iran is certainly not Sweden in this regard, but neither is it North Korea. It's most a dictatorship, but it certainly isn't totalitarian. Iran's elected leaders are not the most powerful people in Iran, but they do hold some real power over domestic affairs. That's a great deal more representative than many Sunni states.

You also have the examples of Lebanon and Iraq, which are even closer to representative democracy than is Iran.

Is Islam compatible with democracy?

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No, not really. What percentage of Muslim countries treat their women equally, or at least decently? The PC apologetics for Islamic governance perplexes me to no end. I hear attack after attack on Christian influence in American governance (which is relatively minimal), but I hear nary a peep from the same crowd when we discuss Islamic governance.

I, for one, find religion, in general, to be at odds with democracy, but that's simply because I'm a westerner and that's just how we view government; I wouldn't presume to impose my views of governance on other countries but that doesn't mean I have to abstain from criticizing them. Millions of Muslim women are being overtly oppressed by Islamic regimes the world over, so, no, Islam does not seem to be compatible with democracy.

A story:

One time, in Iraq, I saw a man walking down the street, relaxed and care-free, his women trudging woefully behind him - each with thirty pound sacs of grain pressing down on their frail backs. It was over a hundred and ten degrees Fahrenheit and their burqas looked stiflingly hot in the afternoon sun.

I simply could not reconcile this site in my mind. The idea of forcing women, some of them elderly, to assume the entire burden of a family's manual labor AND the children's upbringing is unconscionable to me. What kind of a "man" is capable of such a thing? This is the status quo in many Islamic countries and I find that disturbing. That’s probably why I’m so attracted to Arabic/Persian women; they’re in dire need of a real man…

It is a hard question. It needs to be resolved what democracy actually means; personally I don't consider most modern western states that democratic.

I think it be compatible in some forms with some forms of democracy. It leads on of course to other questions like its compatibility with liberty and democracy's own desirability, particularly in different forms.

bub said:

According to Samuel Huntington, Islam is incompatible with religion because
- there is no separation with church & state in these countries
- democracy is not present in their culture
- the Koran itself is contrary to democracy
...

Do you think he's right or wrong? Why?

Click to expand...

This is where people get it wrong. NO religion is compatible with democracy. Give me an instance where Christianity has ever been compatible with democracy without seperation of church and state. You could say Rome was a christian empire that practised democracy, but there idea of democracy wouldnt be good enough to todays European standards. Unless we practise secularism, there isnt a chance in hell we could bring the two together successfully, with conflicting ideas of both ideaologies. Islam, as a religion, is not compatible with Democracy, as is the rest of them, but like every state, muslim or otherwise, can allow Democracy to thrive through secularism. Turkey is a perfect example of this, or Albania, or Macedonia, Bosnia etc. In other words, secularism is the key for the Arabs in the ME if they truly want peace.

kaya'08 said:

This is where people get it wrong. NO religion is compatible with democracy. Give me an instance where Christianity has ever been compatible with democracy without seperation of church and state. You could say Rome was a christian empire that practised democracy, but there idea of democracy wouldnt be good enough to todays European standards. Unless we practise secularism, there isnt a chance in hell we could bring the two together successfully, with conflicting ideas of both ideaologies. Islam, as a religion, is not compatible with Democracy, as is the rest of them, but like every state, muslim or otherwise, can allow Democracy to thrive through secularism. Turkey is a perfect example of this, or Albania, or Macedonia, Bosnia etc. In other words, secularism is the key for the Arabs in the ME if they truly want peace.

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Obviously a measure of separation of church and state is needed for democracy but I don't think it need be total. The CoE occupies a happy medium for instance.

Islam, as it is currently, is incompatible with democracy. Mainly because religion is the law in most of the Muslim countries.
Once they'd become secular, like turkey for example, they shouldn't have any problem with becoming a democracy.

Islam is as compatiable as any other religion.
The problem occurs when Islam is used as a political force for law.
A measure of church/state seperation needs to occur. Have a political system with a state religion if need be like UK but ensure that politics doesn't come from a religion.
In that sense, secularism is the best way for Muslims to go.

Wessexman said:

Obviously a measure of separation of church and state is needed for democracy but I don't think it need be total. The CoE occupies a happy medium for instance.

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The idea of that would be nice. Sometimes we need religion to bring people to more moral, traditional values. But im yet to see this work in any nation.

bub said:

According to Samuel Huntington, Islam is incompatible with religion because
- there is no separation with church & state in these countries
- democracy is not present in their culture
- the Koran itself is contrary to democracy
...

Do you think he's right or wrong? Why?

Click to expand...

Any religion can be compatible with democracy so long as they don't infuse their religion into government. Theocracy is incompatible with democracy.

kaya'08 said:

The idea of that would be nice. Sometimes we need religion to bring people to more moral, traditional values. But im yet to see this work in any nation.

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Without shared beliefs systems no society can function, particularly a democratic one which is so atomistic anyway.

I voted other ebcause legitimately democratic mvoements in the middle east would create VERY differant political systems than those of the west.

Western, capitalist democracy - may be incompatable with Islam.
But democratic decision making is not.

I think many people would have trouble viewing foreign democracy as democratic, because people take a very narrow and culturally biased view of what democracy means.

The conflation of capitalism with democracy is but one example of this.
The seperation of church and state is another.
So are the way our parliaments work. And presidents/primeministers.
And political parties as we know them.

for but a few examples of things that we view as inherant to democracy, but maya ctualy be contradictory in areas where people hold differant political outlooks.

Wessexman said:

Without shared beliefs systems no society can function, particularly a democratic one which is so atomistic anyway.

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Fear of the other is the usual belief system that binds.

Huntington had a famous grad student, Francis Fukuyama who wrote a counter-argument to Clash of Civilizations, called The End of History and the Last Man. In his book, Fukuyama asserts that the debate over the best form of government has ended and that liberal democracy is the only viable form of government with capitalism as its economic principle. He further argues that with time, even the Islamic nations will be brought into the fold and that nations like Turkey, Malaysia and even future Iraq will be the leaders in ushering in democracy in the Middle East.

Ethereal said:

1) No, not really. What percentage of Muslim countries treat their women equally, or at least decently?

2) The PC apologetics for Islamic governance perplexes me to no end. I hear attack after attack on Christian influence in American governance (which is relatively minimal), but I hear nary a peep from the same crowd when we discuss Islamic governance.

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1) What if they voted on it, and decided this was best?

2) we are tlaking about DEMOCRACY. How WE as OUTSIDERS feel about the seperation of church and state in their country IS NOT OUR PLACE TO DECIDE IF YOU BELIEVE IN DEMOCRACY.