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Will the SCotUS incorporate the 2nd amendement against the states?

See OP for 2-pat question


  • Total voters
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So you're using Christian principles to explain what the First Amendment meant? Nice.

No, I am using an old story about a Jew and a Roman to clarify this question of context.

Social Security Withholding is not aimed at prohibiting any religion.

Religious beliefs that mean you can't participate in public life , pretty much says to me that you should move to a theocracy of your own denomination.

That problem, is their problem, and not one that the law regarding withholding is creating.

Why? How does that fit into the framework you've created?

They waited until the Mormons had carved a state out, and had all their own elected officials in office, and then the U.S. rode out there with force of arms and replaced all these elected officials because of their religion.

Patently un-american.

No, that's not what the fourth amendment says.

Really ?

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Where are you getting this?

Staraight from the source.

1) A victim is not a warrant. You're already backtracking on your earlier statement now that you're realizing how impractical it is.

No, I am not. The victim's complaint = oath or affirmation.

2) What if there's no victim? A cop walking alone down the street sees a guy placing a bomb in the middle of the road. He can't do anything?

He can call the victim, the DMV. Property they are responsible for is being damaged.

What are you talking about? Cases involve religious funding, search/seizure, social security, etc. all directly implicate questions of federal law. These issues are in no way limited to state actions.

Law is outranked by the Constitution. Wherever it conflicts, the law loses and is invalidated in the struggle.

Furthermore, are you pretending the 14th Amendment was never enacted?

Do I appear to be ?

If you think that the founders believed that the Constitution fully answered all these questions

The questions they didn't answer, are pretty much not Constitutional questions, but rather legislative ones.
 
No arresting without showing a judge probable cause, no killing or imprisoning or fining without a trial.

Does a cop need to go to a judge in order to get a warrant for a drunk and disorderly?
 
The Constitution is in English, it does not need to be interpreted , it needs to be obeyed by any and all government entities on U.S. soil.

I wrote to you in English in the other thread, and you didn't read it correctly at all, obviously you need to go back and attempt to interpret it correctly. ;)

Obviously, when people disagree about what something means, it means that there is an interpretation issue.

I feel that the 2nd is clear and concise, and that it speaks of a collective right that incoporates the individual right...

You, and others, disagree... correct interpretation is crucial.
 
No, I am using an old story about a Jew and a Roman to clarify this question of context.

Social Security Withholding is not aimed at prohibiting any religion.

Religious beliefs that mean you can't participate in public life , pretty much says to me that you should move to a theocracy of your own denomination.

That problem, is their problem, and not one that the law regarding withholding is creating.

I notice that you dodged the question of taxes directed at religious sects, funding for religious institutions, and prayer in schools. Why might that be?

They waited until the Mormons had carved a state out, and had all their own elected officials in office, and then the U.S. rode out there with force of arms and replaced all these elected officials because of their religion.

Patently un-american.

Which has what to do with our discussion? If Congress wants to say that no polygamists or supporters of polygamy can hold office, that would seem to be a-okay under your construction.

No, I am not. The victim's complaint = oath or affirmation.

He can call the victim, the DMV. Property they are responsible for is being damaged.

1) The DMV doesn't own the roads.

2) At this point, you have to be flaming. You think that if a cop sees a terrorist about to set off a bomb, he cannot arrest them until he gets a sworn affidavit from the DMV?

Law is outranked by the Constitution. Wherever it conflicts, the law loses and is invalidated in the struggle.

And in order to determine whether there's a conflict, you need to interpret it. You don't just get to say "oh well it totally means what I say because that's how i read it and I know what's up"

Do I appear to be ?

Yes.

The questions they didn't answer, are pretty much not Constitutional questions, but rather legislative ones.

No, they're not. You're just making things up at this point.
 
That would be general, not vague, though I was referring more to the enumerated powers of the government.
Vague –adjective, va⋅guer, va⋅guest.
1. not clearly or explicitly stated or expressed: vague promises.
Which is what I just said:
This is vague, the Framers did not explicitly list what does and does not fall into those categories.

It does when they don't.

I gave an example. However, I missed a step when I did. The court in Warin simply declares that there is no individual right to firearm ownership. For that, they cite their own declaration of the same in Stevens v. United States. Stevens says Miller v. United States declares there is no individual right, but cites absolutely no language in Miller which says this (because there isn't any); the Court just declares it to be so out of whole cloth.

That isn't "reasoning." That's just making something up. And in this case, just plain lying about it.

UNITED STATES v. MILLER, 307 U.S. 174 (1939)
In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense. Aymette v. State of Tennessee, 2 Humph., Tenn., 154, 158.
The Constitution as originally adopted granted to the Congress power- 'To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress.' U.S.C.A.Const. art. 1, 8. With obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such forces the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted and applied with that end in view.
In other words, the Court was asserting that the 2nd Amendment must be interpreted to apply only to militias, within the purview of Article 1 Section 8 of the United States Constitution. Which is what Stevens v. United States was also asserting. Hence, it is reasoning, even if you may not like the outcome.

Frank James Stevens v. United States of America
Since the Second Amendment right ‘to keep and bear arms’ applies only to the right of the state to maintain militia and not to the individual’s right to bear arms, there can be no serious claim to any express constitutional right of an individual to possess a firearm.

In addition United States v. Warin also cites 2 other cases for its assertion:
See also, United States v. Johnson, 497 F.2d 648, 560 (4th Cir. 1974); United States v. Tot, 131 F.2d 261, 266 (3d Cir. 1942).

Here is a quote from the opinion in United States v. Tot:
It is abundantly clear both from the discussions of this amendment contemporaneous with its proposal and adoption and those of learned writers since that this amendment, unlike those providing for protection of free speech and freedom of religion, was not adopted with individual rights in mind, but as a protection for the States in the maintenance of their militia organizations against possible encroachments by the federal power.

I said there are no restrictions on a practical level. This is all well in good in theory, but in practice, it doesn't work this way. Courts rule simply what they want to rule all the time. Stare decisis is decisis until, well, they don't feel like following it anymore.
Why does it not work this way? It has worked this way in the past.
Some examples of jurisdiction stripping by Congress in the past:
Termination of case Ex Parte McCardle (1869)
Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996
Prison Litigation Reform Act of 1996
Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996

Implications for Stare Decisis:
The Supreme Court is superior to all other courts, state and federal, in interpreting national law, and therefore its decisions are binding upon them all. Unlike the decisions of the Supreme Court, which have national precedential authority, the decisions of the US courts of appeals are binding only upon the courts within their geographical circuits.
Courts must defer to precedent set by a superior court. As a matter of policy, courts should also respect their own prior decisions. However, a court may overturn a prior decision. The Supreme Court did this in Brown v. Board of Education, wherein it set aside the separate-but-equal doctrine that it established in Plessy v. Ferguson.

The Constitution has been amended four times to reverse Supreme Court decisions:
1)The Eleventh Amendment, which provides for state immunity in federal court. Enacted in response to Chisholm v. Georgia.
2)The Fourteenth Amendment, which provides for due process and equal protection in the states. Enacted, partly, in response to Dred Scott v. Sandford.
3)The Sixteenth Amendment, which provides for the federal income tax. Enacted in response to Pollock v. Farmer’s Loan Trust Co, in which the Court ruled a federal income tax unconstitutional.
4)The Twenty-Sixth Amendment, which provides that all individuals age eighteen and older possess the right to vote in state and national elections. Enacted in response to Oregon v. Mitchell.

Spend some time reading through a bunch of meaty dissents, and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.
After an opinion and ruling is rendered, dissents don’t really hold much water. They don’t constitute legal precedent themselves.
 
Though I was referring more to the enumerated powers of the government.
I'll give you some applicable examples then:
1) The 'necessary and proper' clause of Section 8 Article I of the Constitution states: To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
What is considered necessary and proper?

2) The 'exceptions' clause of Section 2 Article III of the Constitution states: In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.
What constitutes an 'exception?'
 
Vague –adjective, va⋅guer, va⋅guest.
1. not clearly or explicitly stated or expressed: vague promises.
Which is what I just said:

OK, fine. However, you use the term contextually as to imply that the language was poorly written, which is was not, or that it wasn't written in plain language, which it was.

It's general where it needs to be general, because no, they did not seek to anticipate every possible contingency that every might arise.

But it is NOT written in such a way that the very plain language is up for complete reinterpretation whenever the reader sees fit. Words have meanings. That's the point of writing them down.




UNITED STATES v. MILLER, 307 U.S. 174 (1939)

In other words, the Court was asserting that the 2nd Amendment must be interpreted to apply only to militias, within the purview of Article 1 Section 8 of the United States Constitution. Which is what Stevens v. United States was also asserting. Hence, it is reasoning, even if you may not like the outcome.

No, that is NOT what it says. It says that for a weapon -- not the person, but the weapon -- to be within the scope of the right protected by the Amendment, it (the weapon) must bear a reasonable relationship for use in a militia.

The Court did not discuss Miller's membership in a militia. If the ruling turned on that, they simply would have dismissed for lack of standing on Miller's part, because he as an individual would have had no claim to the Amendment's protection.

Instead, they remanded back to the lower court for determination as to whether or not the sawed-off shotgun in question is such a weapon reasonably related to militia use.

So, Miller turns on the type of weapon, not the individual or collective character of the right. Saying that it says the right is a collective right is simply pulling something out of thin air.

Thus, it is not "reasoning"; it is simply lying.



Why does it not work this way? It has worked this way in the past.
Some examples of jurisdiction stripping by Congress in the past:
Termination of case Ex Parte McCardle (1869)
Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996
Prison Litigation Reform Act of 1996
Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996

Because courts find ways to do what they want to do despite any of this. Lately, heck, they've been looking to foreign law when domestic law doesn't give them what they want.

Like I said, you can quote theory all day long. Judicial practice is something entirely different.


After an opinion and ruling is rendered, dissents don’t really hold much water. They don’t constitute legal precedent themselves.

I didn't say you should read them because they have weight as precedent. I said you should read them because they're excellent sources for understanding the shenanigans majorities can pull to get the ruling they want, despite the "restrictions" which are nominally in place.
 
I'll give you some applicable examples then:
1) The 'necessary and proper' clause of Section 8 Article I of the Constitution states: To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
What is considered necessary and proper?

2) The 'exceptions' clause of Section 2 Article III of the Constitution states: In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.
What constitutes an 'exception?'

These are both what I mean, as I said above, by "general" language.
 
Does a cop need to go to a judge in order to get a warrant for a drunk and disorderly?

Victim ? Either file assault or vandalism or trespassing charges, or leave the citizen alone.
 
Which has what to do with our discussion? If Congress wants to say that no polygamists or supporters of polygamy can hold office, that would seem to be a-okay under your construction.

You brought polygamy up here . . .

People who believe in marrying multiple wives? People who believe in taking spiritual hallucinogens?

And this was my response . . .

None of the government 's business. The U.S. invasion of Utah was possibly the most un-American thing the U.S. government ever did.

Neither of the citizens you describe are doing anything the government needs to stop or can stop. As I explained, None of the government's business.
 
It's not that it prohibits it, it's that it prohibits free exercise.

Simply false. Paying the same taxes as anyone else does not prohibit free exercise. It quite simply has nothing to do with religion at all. Taxes are about money for upkeep of the state. Trying to pretend that your religion exempts you from taxes, is simple fraud. Plenty of other religions out there, and their congregations pay taxes and exercise freely so bugger off :)

By your logic, anything that doesn't prohibit a religion is fair game - taxes on jews, bans on proselytizing, etc.

You typed it, so its your logic. Or are you trying to strawman me ?

Also, what about prayer in schools?

What about it ? I think the first amendment is pretty clear here. If you pick one religion and waste everyone's time on it, then you are, in that school district, attempting to establish the one you picked as that school district's state religion.

What about funding for sectarian institutions?

More specificity would be appreciated here, but my first instinct is, None of government's business.
 
Obviously, when people disagree about what something means, it means that there is an interpretation issue.

No, not really. The vast majority of times, it is a literacy issue, and only for one of them.

[I feel that the 2nd is clear and concise, and that it speaks of a collective right that incoporates the individual right...

The rules of grammar are not about what you "feel". You are simply factually wrong here, and as I noted above, it is a literacy issue. You "feel" that way, but you are wrong, because of the fact that in a compound sentence, the dependent clause is subordinate to the independent one.
 
SCOTUS has to hear the case. Chicago will win. They have a case by case account of 1000's of handgun and assault rifle deaths to back up the ban. They court may allow shotguns and rifles for sport but guns made for killing people I think they will draw the line. Get ready to them them over or do the time Chicago. A good law for a severe problem.

WRONG.

The 2nd Amendment trumps Chicago. Whether they like it or not ... their ban is illegal and will be tossed out.
 
Victim ? Either file assault or vandalism or trespassing charges, or leave the citizen alone.

You are ignoring the point... it is not logical, nor in the best interest of society to just sit back and wait for charges to be filed, if they even get the chance. You seem to have no concept as to the level of lawless (state of nature) that you seek...
 
You are ignoring the point... it is not logical, nor in the best interest of society to just sit back and wait for charges to be filed, if they even get the chance.
It most certainly is in the best interest of a free society that a citizen be considered innocent until proven guilty. It most certainly is in the best interest of a free society that a citizen not be deprived of their liberty for no reason, and until a citizen commits one of the crimes I mentioned or something like them, there isn't a reason.

"Disorderly", is a hollow charge, and nothing the government need waste its time on.

You seem to have no concept as to the level of lawless (state of nature) that you seek...

"You have no concept" Really ? I understand my outlook with regard to strict adherance the constitution, just fine. How is insisting that the Supreme Law of the Land be obeyed "lawless" ?
 
UNITED STATES v. MILLER, 307 U.S. 174 (1939)

In other words, the Court was asserting that the 2nd Amendment must be interpreted to apply only to militias, within the purview of Article 1 Section 8 of the United States Constitution.

And, since the Amendments supercede the original articles of the Constitution, the Supreme court was wrong. It's not like the Supreme Court hasn't been wrong before.

The USSC ruled that "separate but equal" was a Constitutionally valid concept. Hmmmm....the USSC ruled that "separate but equal" was not a Constitutionally valid concept.

Gee. That means the USSC was wrong on one of those rulings. Which do you choose was wrong?

No matter, Miller was wrong on several counts, not the least of which was the claim that shotguns weren't useful in a military sense, because they were, as the war fought immediately preceeding the Miller decision demonstrated.
 
I agree that it's an individual right, but it's an individual right as against the federal government, not the states.

Did ya ever notice that the states don't have the authority to abridge or even infringe on the rights of the citizens guaranteed by the Constitution?
 
I'm not arguing for that conclusion in that post, I'm pointing out what the law is. As it was drafted and as it is currently applied, it applies against the federal government only.



You said:



Unless I'm misreading this, you're arguing that the 2nd Amendment is different from other amendments, because the fact that it uses "the people" means that it applies of its own force against the states and not just the federal government. I don't think that's the case, nor do I think anyone's even arguing that.



And none of them were, until the Court explicitly declared so. That's my point.

The Bill of Rights specifically applies to "the people", except where "the states" are specifically mentioned, as in the Tenth Amendment.

Otherwise they don't make any sense.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

or the right of the people to assemble shall not be limited by the federal government but each state can put whatever collars they want on the people as they choose.

That's what you're arguing.

(But, funny enough, it's not how the amendment is worded)

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed by the federal government, but each state can choose to steal all the guns it wants.

That's what you're arguing.

(But, funny enough, it's not how the amendment is worded)

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures by the federal government is inviolate, not to mention the fact that at the time this Amendment is being ratified the federal government is 150 years away from having it's own FBI, but what the heck, we'll let the states do any damn thing their government wants to do to the people.

That's what you're arguing.

(But, funny enough, it's not how the amendment is worded)


No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

No person shall be held to answer in a federal court, but the states can do anything they want.


That's what you're arguing.

(But, funny enough, it's not how the amendment is worded)

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

In all criminal prosecutions in federal court, the accused shall enjoy etc etc, but the state courts can do as their states wish.


That's what you're arguing.

(But, funny enough, it's not how the amendment is worded)

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

The rights of the people are many, but only under federal law, and state law can do as it pleases

That's what you're arguing.

(But, funny enough, it's not how the amendment is worded)

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

OH! LOOK! This amendment lists both STATES and THE PEOPLE at the same time!

Wonder what that means.

It means that when the Constitution says "the people", it means "the people", as individuals, and when it says "the states" it means "the states" as in those politically defined geographical locations that are of limited sovereignity and subject to federal law as defined in the Constitution, which grants THE PEOPLE in those states certain absolute freedoms the individual states are not allowed to intrude upon.
 
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Honestly? Policy reasons. The right to be free of handgun bans doesn't carry the same cachet as the right to free speech or the right to practice religion.

That being said, I have no idea how they will come out.

It's not a right to be free of gun bans, it's a right to carry guns.

That supersedes the wishes of the mob intent on destroying that right, and is the right that protects the other rights.
 
You brought polygamy up here . . .

And this was my response . . .

Neither of the citizens you describe are doing anything the government needs to stop or can stop. As I explained, None of the government's business.

Regulating drugs/offering marriage benefits/tax breaks are not within the scope of the government?

That's not what the founders thought.

Simply false. Paying the same taxes as anyone else does not prohibit free exercise. It quite simply has nothing to do with religion at all. Taxes are about money for upkeep of the state. Trying to pretend that your religion exempts you from taxes, is simple fraud. Plenty of other religions out there, and their congregations pay taxes and exercise freely so bugger off :)

I'm not talking about exemptions from taxes, I'm talking about extra taxes. See the difference?

You typed it, so its your logic. Or are you trying to strawman me ?

I'm asking if you support it. Your logic seems to lead to that conclusion. If it doesn't, please explain.

What about it ? I think the first amendment is pretty clear here. If you pick one religion and waste everyone's time on it, then you are, in that school district, attempting to establish the one you picked as that school district's state religion.

lol, oh, well so long as you've figured that out for us. What about not teaching it, but merely saying a single prayer? What if it's voluntary? What if it's non denominational? What if it's only at school events?

Are you starting to see why things might be a little more complex than you thought?

More specificity would be appreciated here, but my first instinct is, None of government's business.

You don't just get to replace the constitution with your political views.


Did ya ever notice that the states don't have the authority to abridge or even infringe on the rights of the citizens guaranteed by the Constitution?

Did you ever notice that there's a difference between an individual right against the fed gov. and an individual right against the state? Guess not.

The Bill of Rights specifically applies to "the people", except where "the states" are specifically mentioned, as in the Tenth Amendment.

Otherwise they don't make any sense.

I'm not going to argue with you about this because it's absolutely indisputable by anyone with any knowledge of history or the law that the Bill of Rights did not bind the states in any way.

It's not a right to be free of gun bans, it's a right to carry guns.

That supersedes the wishes of the mob intent on destroying that right, and is the right that protects the other rights.

I was explaining a practical reason for why I thought the court might come out that way, not my own beliefs.

It's possible to understand something and not believe it, believe it or not.
 
OK, fine. However, you use the term contextually as to imply that the language was poorly written, which is was not, or that it wasn't written in plain language, which it was.

It's general where it needs to be general, because no, they did not seek to anticipate every possible contingency that every might arise.

But it is NOT written in such a way that the very plain language is up for complete reinterpretation whenever the reader sees fit. Words have meanings. That's the point of writing them down.

Now you are just putting words in my mouth. I never said nor stipulated that the language of the Framers was poorly written. I said that it was vague, on purpose.
Complete reinterpretation from what? In order to ‘reinterpret’ anything there has to be a previously held interpretation or at the very least some enduring common law. Original intent constitutes neither of these, so it wouldn’t be considered a reinterpretation, but interpretation.

No, that is NOT what it says. It says that for a weapon -- not the person, but the weapon -- to be within the scope of the right protected by the Amendment, it (the weapon) must bear a reasonable relationship for use in a militia.

The Court did not discuss Miller's membership in a militia. If the ruling turned on that, they simply would have dismissed for lack of standing on Miller's part, because he as an individual would have had no claim to the Amendment's protection.

Instead, they remanded back to the lower court for determination as to whether or not the sawed-off shotgun in question is such a weapon reasonably related to militia use.

So, Miller turns on the type of weapon, not the individual or collective character of the right. Saying that it says the right is a collective right is simply pulling something out of thin air.

Thus, it is not "reasoning"; it is simply lying.
Yes that is what it says. It does say that a weapon cannot be 18 inches or longer in length in order for it to constitute a “reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia.”
However, it also says:
The Constitution as originally adopted granted to the Congress power- 'To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress.' U.S.C.A.Const. art. 1, 8. With obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such forces the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted and applied with that end in view.
In other words, the Second Amendment must be viewed through the eyes of Article 1 Section 8, which only discusses the militia. It says that the Second Amendment was made with the purpose of ensuring the effectiveness of the militia.

And you’ve conveniently ignored the other cases that Stevens cited.

Because courts find ways to do what they want to do despite any of this. Lately, heck, they've been looking to foreign law when domestic law doesn't give them what they want.

Like I said, you can quote theory all day long. Judicial practice is something entirely different.
“There is perhaps a misunderstanding that when you refer to a decision of [foreign courts] that you are using those as binding precedent,” Mrs. Ginsberg said. “Why shouldn’t we look to the wisdom of a judge from abroad with at least as much ease as we would read a law review article from a professor?”
Mrs. Ginsberg argued the Supreme Court has lost standing in the international community by failing to integrate foreign decisions into its constitutional rulings. The court’s only female jurist noted the Canadian Supreme Court is “probably cited more widely abroad than the U.S. Supreme Court” because “you will not be listened to if you don’t listen to others.”
“The notion that it is improper to look beyond the borders of the United States in grappling with hard questions has a close kinship to the view of the U.S. Constitution as a document essentially frozen in time as of the date of its ratification,” Mrs. Ginsberg said in a speech four years ago.

It’s not theory. I’ve given you actual examples of how these restrictions are applied. So please show me how they are not practical and don’t work.

I didn't say you should read them because they have weight as precedent. I said you should read them because they're excellent sources for understanding the shenanigans majorities can pull to get the ruling they want, despite the "restrictions" which are nominally in place.
Majorities? Dissents are dissents for a reason, because the dissenter doesn’t hold the majority opinion. Are you saying that because not all judges on a panel agree on a decision, that they must be making stuff up?
 
Regulating drugs/offering marriage benefits/tax breaks are not within the scope of the government?

What do you think I mean when I say "None of the government's business" ?

That's not what the founders thought.

Based on what ? What marriage benefits or drug regulations are in the Constitution and Bill of Rights ?

I'm not talking about exemptions from taxes,

Actually, you were, when you mentioned the Amish and Quakers . . .

How do you define this? What about people who don't believe in Social Security (Amish)? People who don't believe in supporting war with their taxes (quakers)?

I'm talking about extra taxes. See the difference?

Why don't you decribe the actual bill you are talking about, and how it would ever get passed into law. Define these "extra taxes" or give me an example in American history.

I'm asking if you support it.

I don't think that is what you are doing, but no, I do not.

Your logic seems to lead to that conclusion. If it doesn't, please explain.

YOUR logic lead you to extrapolate there. I am not responsible for your "freestylin".

lol, oh, well so long as you've figured that out for us. What about not teaching it, but merely saying a single prayer?

That is teaching it.

What if it's voluntary?

No-one can stop a kid from closing his eyes and praying before a test, and no one needs any law or policy regarding it.

What if it's non denominational?

Then its not hindu, and its certainly not atheistic, and its certainly not Judaic, but most importantly, it is not worth wasting one minute of school time on.

You don't just get to replace the constitution with your political views.

I guess I don't get this comment. You asked :

What about funding for sectarian institutions?
and I replied :
More specificity would be appreciated here, but my first instinct is, None of government's business.

Your comment did not provide the specificity I was seeking, and seems to be a non-sequitur. It is not my political views at issue, but the fact that there isn't a word about funding for sectarian institutions in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. So, the founders delineated the jobs of the government, or its "business", and the funding you mention was not on their list, so, as I stated earlier, it is None of the government's business.

Did you ever notice that there's a difference between an individual right against the fed gov. and an individual right against the state? Guess not.

While I realize this was not addressed to me, I would like to point out . . .

AMENDMENT XIV
Passed by Congress June 13, 1866. Ratified July 9, 1868.

Note: Article I, section 2, of the Constitution was modified by section 2 of the 14th amendment.

Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

I'm not certain if you were talking about a point in history prior to the fourteenth, but after it, states are barred from violating any of the same rights the fed is.
 
And, since the Amendments supercede the original articles of the Constitution, the Supreme court was wrong. It's not like the Supreme Court hasn't been wrong before.

The USSC ruled that "separate but equal" was a Constitutionally valid concept. Hmmmm....the USSC ruled that "separate but equal" was not a Constitutionally valid concept.

Gee. That means the USSC was wrong on one of those rulings. Which do you choose was wrong?

No matter, Miller was wrong on several counts, not the least of which was the claim that shotguns weren't useful in a military sense, because they were, as the war fought immediately preceeding the Miller decision demonstrated.

Amendments only supersede those parts of the Constitution that they change, if they change part of the original at all. But what does that have to do with anything?
Please don't comment on a conversation if you haven't read it in its entirety. This is not a discussion about whether or not the Supreme Court was correct in it's decision.

Of course the Supreme Court can err in its judgment:
“We are not final because we are infallible, but we are infallible only because
we are final.”
-Justice Robert H. Jackson

The Court did not say that all shotguns in general were not useful in a military sense, just shotguns with a barrel length of 18 inches or longer.
 
Did ya ever notice that the states don't have the authority to abridge or even infringe on the rights of the citizens guaranteed by the Constitution?

But the second amendment has not currently been incorporated, which means it does not currently apply to the states (except for in the 9th circuit). The Bill of Rights did not originally apply to the states, just the federal government. Which is why most of those 10 amendments have been incorporated. The 2nd amendment probably will be incorporated, but it does not currently apply to the states (with the exception I already mentioned).
 
I'm not certain if you were talking about a point in history prior to the fourteenth, but after it, states are barred from violating any of the same rights the fed is.
That is not necessarily so.

There are privileges and immunities that neither state nor federal government may touch. However, there are impedances upon federal power that do not apply to state power.

Your argument would equate federal and state power, and that is not the case, neither before nor after the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment.
 
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