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Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

Will the CA courts overturn Prop 8?


  • Total voters
    27
I had this same debate with my father the other day. This is how I see it.

Take for example: Since the founding of our country white men were only allowed to marry one woman but all other minorities could marry three women. After decades of struggle it was decided "ok white men can now have two wives". While it is progress they are still have not achieved the "same" rights as others. They look at it as stopping 99% of the way and feel that the majority still wont give them the last little bit. At least this is how I precieve there view. While you or I may see it as the same and perhaps feel they should be happy with what they have achieved we would also be asking them to settle for just a little less then what we have.

That last little bit is nothing but a name.

Again and even in your example it is nothing but trying to make something look legitimate when a majority of society does not feel it is.

It still looks like social engineering and has little to do with the family.
 
That last little bit is nothing but a name.


I agree the last little bit is nothing but a name. So why not give them the name and make them happy. The way I see it having homosexual unions labeled marriage or civil union will have no affect in my life.

On a side note, I dont think it is the governments place to dictate personal relationships. I dont think the government should be involved in any way what so ever other then to protect personal rights. Its up to the individual to determine what they consider marriage.
 
I agree the last little bit is nothing but a name. So why not give them the name and make them happy. The way I see it having homosexual unions labeled marriage or civil union will have no affect in my life.

The political side of me says I agree. The Christian side says go ahead with civil unions but it is not marriage.

I have admitted before I am torn on this issue.

On a side note, I dont think it is the governments place to dictate personal relationships. I dont think the government should be involved in any way what so ever other then to protect personal rights. Its up to the individual to determine what they consider marriage.

Absolutely, I have said as much myself. Could not agree more.
 
The Ca Constitution needs to be in line with the US Constitution. If it is not than it need to be rewritten. The CA Prop 8 fight will bring this to the SCOTUS and will see that same sex marriage will be made legal in every state. It could work for the best if CA decides it wants to go against the US Constitution.
The California Constitution with a ban on gay marriage is in line with the US Constitution.

The California Constitution without a ban on gay marriage is in line with the US Constitution.

The US Constitution articulates neither a right to gay marriage nor a protection of that right. The matter is properly left to the states, and the State of California amended their constitution to bad gay marriage. The US Constitution, Amendment 10, gives them the power to do this.
 
I have no doubt a Constitutional amendment banning gay marriage bans will eventually pass this way. The writing is on the wall...why fight it unitll then Celticlord?

You should search the threads for my articulated position on the matter.
 
The California Constitution with a ban on gay marriage is in line with the US Constitution.

The California Constitution without a ban on gay marriage is in line with the US Constitution.

The US Constitution articulates neither a right to gay marriage nor a protection of that right. The matter is properly left to the states, and the State of California amended their constitution to bad gay marriage. The US Constitution, Amendment 10, gives them the power to do this.


Tuesday is decision day.
 
The question isn't about whether the amendment violates the constitution, it's about whether the process in which the amendment was passed was the proper way to amend the constitution.
If the process was flawed, then the proper course would have been to challenge its inclusion on the ballot. Was such a challenge filed then?
 
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_constitution]California Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Read the article at the bottom.

Essentially, any ballot initiative that fundamentally revises the constitution requires that 2/3 of the legislature vote in favor. A fundamental revision is when a proposition changes already existing parts of the constitution.

The question that the courts are going to decide is if Prop 8 shall be defined as a "fundamental revision" of the California Constitution.

In my opinion, the court will have to determine that Prop 8 be considered a fundamental revision, as it conflicts with Article 1 Section 7 B.

A citizen or class of citizens may not be granted privileges
or immunities not granted on the same terms to all citizens.
Privileges or immunities granted by the Legislature may be altered or
revoked.

Prop 8 would create the situation of certain classes of citizens have privileges that other groups are not, thereby violating that section.
 
If the process was flawed, then the proper course would have been to challenge its inclusion on the ballot. Was such a challenge filed then?

Read rathi's post directly above mine - it explains what the question is.

Such a challenge could not have been filed before it was passed, as there was no standing.
 
Read rathi's post directly above mine - it explains what the question is.

Such a challenge could not have been filed before it was passed, as there was no standing.
California has differentiated between amendment and revision for over a century. That is a given. However, that differentiation, and the controlling standards applied by the California Supreme Court are also a given. Also a given is that the constitutional impact of Proposition 8 (or any ballot initiative) is directly derived from the particular language used; if the language is so sweeping in nature as to amount to a revision rather than an amendment, the articulated standards of the California Supreme Court would render the initiative invalid.

It necessarily follows that the invalidity arises from the process rather than the content of the initiative. The differentiation of amendment versus revision is a procedural distinction that stands wholly independent of the matter presented to the electorate; that differentiation is entirely a matter of the process by which the initiative comes to be put to the electorate. Revisions must first be passed by 2/3 vote of both houses of the California Legislature. If Proposition 8 were in effect a revision rather than an amendment, the lack of prior passage by the legislature would stand as an automatic invalidation of the measure, and thus would be more than sufficient justification for striking it from the ballot. The California case Amador Valley Joint Union High School District v. State Board of Equalization supports this:
Because a revision may not be achieved through the initiative process, petitioners' first contention strikes at the very validity of article XIII A in its inception and in its entirety. Were we to conclude that the Proposition 13 initiative constituted a revision not an amendment, that would end our inquiry; the initiative would be invalid for its failure to meet the constitutional requirements of a revision.
The text of Proposition 8 was known well before the election; claiming it as a revision rather than an amendment would be asserting a defect of process, and, with the standards elucidated in Amador I do not see how any registered voter in California could possibly lack standing to challenge that process on the basis of a presumed defect.

Edited to add:
A bit further research shows that the California Supreme Court denied a pre-election petition to remove Proposition 8 from the ballot on these grounds, but apparently did so without comment. While it may be fairly argued that the Court was withholding its opinion pending the electoral outcome (and any post-electoral petitions filed with the courts), its reluctance to pre-adjudicate the matter at a minimum suggests the issue of revision versus amendment is not so immediately obvious as to intervene in the initiative process.
 
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California has differentiated between amendment and revision for over a century. That is a given. However, that differentiation, and the controlling standards applied by the California Supreme Court are also a given. Also a given is that the constitutional impact of Proposition 8 (or any ballot initiative) is directly derived from the particular language used; if the language is so sweeping in nature as to amount to a revision rather than an amendment, the articulated standards of the California Supreme Court would render the initiative invalid.

It necessarily follows that the invalidity arises from the process rather than the content of the initiative. The differentiation of amendment versus revision is a procedural distinction that stands wholly independent of the matter presented to the electorate; that differentiation is entirely a matter of the process by which the initiative comes to be put to the electorate. Revisions must first be passed by 2/3 vote of both houses of the California Legislature. If Proposition 8 were in effect a revision rather than an amendment, the lack of prior passage by the legislature would stand as an automatic invalidation of the measure, and thus would be more than sufficient justification for striking it from the ballot. The California case Amador Valley Joint Union High School District v. State Board of Equalization supports this:
The text of Proposition 8 was known well before the election; claiming it as a revision rather than an amendment would be asserting a defect of process, and, with the standards elucidated in Amador I do not see how any registered voter in California could possibly lack standing to challenge that process on the basis of a presumed defect.

You're right - as it turns out, the court said they did have standing, but rejected the claim anyways.

FindLaw's Common Law: Calif. Vote on Same-Sex Marriage Ban Will Proceed
 
In my opinion, the court will have to determine that Prop 8 be considered a fundamental revision, as it conflicts with Article 1 Section 7 B.

The Amador and McFadden rulings would appear to argue otherwise.

Amador frames the issue thus:
We think it significant that prior to 1962 a constitutional revision could be accomplished only by the elaborate procedure of the convening of, and action by, a constitutional convention (art. XVIII, § 2). This fact suggests that the term "revision" in section XVIII originally was intended to refer to a substantial alteration of the entire Constitution, rather than to a less extensive change in one or more of its provisions. Many years ago, in Livermore v. Waite (1894) 102 Cal. 113, 118-119 [36 P. 424], we described the fundamental distinction between revision and amendment as follows: "The very term 'constitution' implies an instrument of a permanent and abiding nature, and the provisions contained therein for its revision indicate the will of the people that the underlying principles upon which it rests, as well as the substantial entirety of the instrument, shall be of a like permanent and abiding nature. On the other hand, the significance of the term 'amendment' implies such an addition or change within the lines of the original instrument as will effect an improvement, or better carry out the purpose for which it was framed."
The nature of a constitutional revision, as it pertains to California, is that it is broad in scope and impact.

Amador does acknowledge that a revision may be of a qualitative nature, and is not solely dependent on the length of the initiative's language, but even in a qualitative sense, it suggests that to be revisory, an initiative's impact must touch several parts of the constitution to a significant degree:

Taken together our Livermore and McFadden decisions mandate that our analysis in determining whether a particular constitutional enactment is a revision or an amendment must be both quantitative and qualitative in nature. For example, an enactment which is so extensive in its provisions as to change directly the "substantial entirety" of the Constitution by the deletion or alteration of numerous existing provisions may well constitute a revision thereof. However, even a relatively simple enactment may accomplish such far reaching changes in the nature of our basic governmental plan as to amount to a revision also. In illustration, the parties herein appear to agree that an enactment which purported to vest all judicial power in the Legislature would amount to a revision without regard either to the length or complexity of the measure or the number of existing articles or sections affected by such change.
This is a refinement of the standards articulated in McFadden, which portrays a revision as explicitly touching at length several parts of the constitution:
Our review of the subjects covered by the measure and of its effect on the totality of our plan of government as now constituted does not purport to be exhaustive. It is amply sufficient, however, to demonstrate the wide and diverse range of subject matters proposed to be voted upon, and the revisional effect which it would necessarily have on our basic plan of government. The proposal is offered as a single amendment but it obviously is multifarious. It does not give the people an opportunity to express approval or disapproval severally as to each major change suggested; rather does it, apparently, have the purpose of aggregating for the measure the favorable votes from electors of many suasions who, wanting strongly enough any one or more propositions offered, might grasp at that which they want, tacitly accepting the remainder. Minorities favoring each proposition severally might, thus aggregated, adopt all. Such an appeal might well be proper in voting on a revised constitution, proposed under the safeguards provided for such a procedure, but it goes beyond the legitimate scope of a single amendatory article. There is in the measure itself no attempt to enumerate the various and many articles and sections of our present Constitution which would be affected, altered, replaced, or repealed. It purports only to add one new article but its framers found it necessary to include the omnibus provision (§ XII, subdiv. (7)) that "If any section, subsection, sentence, clause or phrase of the constitution is in conflict with any of the provisions of this article, such section, subsection, sentence, clause or phrase is to the extent of such conflict hereby repealed."
Proposition 8 appeared on the ballot as follows:
This initiative measure is submitted to the people in accordance with the
provisions of Article II, Section 8, of the California Constitution.
This initiative measure expressly amends the California Constitution by
adding a section thereto; therefore, new provisions proposed to be added are
printed in italic type to indicate that they are new.
SECTION 1. Title
This measure shall be known and may be cited as the “California Marriage
Protection Act.”
SECTION 2. Section 7.5 is added to Article I of the California Constitution,
to read:
SEC. 7.5. Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.
The addition of a new section in and of itself would not rise to the level of revision under the Amador and McFadden standards. Proposition 8 does not explicitly alter any other section of the California Constitution.

The proposition is extremely brief--a mere 14 words of statutory language. Per the Amador and McFadden standards, the brevity of the initiative suggests the initiative is indeed the amendment it purports to be, rather than the revision some claim it to be.

The only avenue I can see to arguing the Proposition to be a revision as opposed to an amendment is that the impact of the amendment is sweeping and overbroad, and thus constitutes a revision rather than an amendment. However, the only article of the California Constitution either directly or indirectly affected by the statutory language is Article I. The remainder of the Constitution is not altered by so much as a comma by the inclusion of the language of Proposition 8--indeed, the word "marriage" appears four times in the Constitution (twice in Article I §25 and twice in Article 13A §2). Proposition 8 does not alter the property rights elucidated in Article I §25 nor the interpretations of the terms "purchased" and "change of ownership" elucidated in Article 13A §2. I do not see the contention of conflict with Article I §7(b) as being persuasive, because the statutory language of Proposition 8 does not apply unequally on the basis of race, ethnicity, nor even sexual orientation.

From a constitutional perspective, the statutory language of Proposition 8 appears to be concise in form and narrow in scope and impact, and thus fits the applicable standards for standing as an amendment rather than a revision to the California Constitution.
 
Proposition 8 amended the California State Constitution. It cannot be overturned as being unconstitutional. If the courts overturn, they are rewriting the constitution; that is beyond the competence of every court.

That's a stretch in logic. If the amendment is counter to previous parts of the constitution, it can be ruled unconstitutional and thrown out. I hope they do toss the abomination out.
 
You're right - as it turns out, the court said they did have standing, but rejected the claim anyways.

FindLaw's Common Law: Calif. Vote on Same-Sex Marriage Ban Will Proceed

Actually, we are both right--some further reading of California Supreme Court rulings indicates a general reluctance to rule on constitutional validity until after an election. The governing court language appears to be Brosnahan v Eu:

As we have frequently observed, it is usually more appropriate to review constitutional and other challenges to ballot propositions or initiative measures after an election rather than to disrupt the electoral process by preventing the exercise of the people's franchise, in the absence of some clear showing of invalidity.
 
California Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Read the article at the bottom.

Essentially, any ballot initiative that fundamentally revises the constitution requires that 2/3 of the legislature vote in favor. A fundamental revision is when a proposition changes already existing parts of the constitution.

The question that the courts are going to decide is if Prop 8 shall be defined as a "fundamental revision" of the California Constitution.

In my opinion, the court will have to determine that Prop 8 be considered a fundamental revision, as it conflicts with Article 1 Section 7 B.



Prop 8 would create the situation of certain classes of citizens have privileges that other groups are not, thereby violating that section.


Thank you for finally bringing up why prop 8 may not have been properly enacted. The rule of law will be upheld when prop 8 is overturned.
 
That's a stretch in logic. If the amendment is counter to previous parts of the constitution, it can be ruled unconstitutional and thrown out. I hope they do toss the abomination out.
By your logic, both the 13th and the 21st Amendments to the U.S Constitution should have been rejected as unconstitutional.
 
By your logic, both the 13th and the 21st Amendments to the U.S Constitution should have been rejected as unconstitutional.

We aren't talking about the US constitution. We're talking about california's.
 
It is getting to the final days. The decision on CA's Prop 8 is coming up this week. Will the courts stand up for civil rights as they always have. Will they fight for the 4% of Americans that have no voice? Will they allow the mob rule that can be an ugly thing?

I do believe that the courts will do the right thing and overturn Prop 8! :2wave:

The thread ask the question of California as a whole while the poll question ask whether or not judges will violate their positions by trying to rewrite laws.
 
Thank you for finally bringing up why prop 8 may not have been properly enacted. The rule of law will be upheld when prop 8 is overturned.

The rule of law can only be upheld by sustaining Proposition 8. The assertion that it creates special classes of citizens may be charitably described as unpersuasive.
 
We aren't talking about the US constitution. We're talking about california's.
Then my logic is hardly a stretch. The only way my logic can be invalidated is by sustaining an argument that Proposition 8 amounted to a revision rather than an amendment to the California Constitution--which I have commented on in previous posts.
 
The rule of law can only be upheld by sustaining Proposition 8. The assertion that it creates special classes of citizens may be charitably described as unpersuasive.

Persuasive enough for the courts to hear the case. :shrug:
 
Then my logic is hardly a stretch. The only way my logic can be invalidated is by sustaining an argument that Proposition 8 amounted to a revision rather than an amendment to the California Constitution--which I have commented on in previous posts.

And I find your comments lacking. If the amendment creates a situation counter to previous amendments or clauses without specifically repealing those amendments or clauses, it was enacted improperly. Now if it had contained language specifically making previous sections null and void, then I could see your argument holding water.
 
Actually, we are both right--some further reading of California Supreme Court rulings indicates a general reluctance to rule on constitutional validity until after an election. The governing court language appears to be Brosnahan v Eu:

Just saw this:

Costa v. Superior Court, 37 Cal. 4th 986 (2006)

Past California decisions have observed that, as a general rule, “it is usually more appropriate to review constitutional and other challenges to ballot propositions or initiative measures after an election rather than to disrupt the electoral process by preventing the exercise of the people's franchise, in the absence of some clear showing of invalidity.” (Brosnahan v. Eu (1982) 31 Cal.3d 1, 4 [181 Cal. Rptr. 100, 641 P.2d 200] (Brosnahan I).) More recently, however, in Senate of the State of Cal. v. Jones (1999) 21 Cal.4th 1142 [90 Cal. Rptr. 2d 810, 988 P.2d 1089] (Senate v. Jones), we noted that decisions after Brosnahan I “have explained that this general rule applies primarily when a challenge rests upon the alleged unconstitutionality of the substance of the proposed initiative, and that the rule does not preclude preelection review when the challenge is based upon a claim, for example, that the proposed measure may not properly be submitted to the voters because the measure is not legislative in character or because it amounts to a constitutional revision rather than an amendment. [Citations.]” (21 Cal.4th at p. 1153.)
 
Persuasive enough for the courts to hear the case. :shrug:
Much like certiorari before the US Supreme Court, the hearing only suggests the question merits exploration. The nature of judicial review precludes imputing a predisposition to one side or the other from granting such review.
 
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