Prison reform

This is a topic that never seems to get much attention, since the vast majority of people in this country have never even been inside of a prison and have little sympathy for criminals. But the conditions in most American prisons are absolutely barbaric.

Prisoners are beaten by one another every day. They are forced to live most of their lives in tiny little cages, with only a few hours each day for exercise and/or work. They are forced, coerced, or sold into sexual slavery for decades. Gang violence and racial violence is rife in prisons, and spills over into the community at large once the offenders are released (and still have grudges against one another).

Yet many people seem to think that they deserve whatever happens to them in prison, and that they forfeit the most basic human rights the minute they are convicted of any crime. Many people make light of the situation. Whenever some unlikeable famous person is sentenced to prison, the "Don't drop the soap" jokes are the first thing that come to many people's minds (and I'm not excluding myself). But should we really be making light of their situation? The conditions they face are horrid...probably not all that different from living in Josef Fritzl's basement.

When convicts are sentenced to prison, rape is not a part of their sentence. But for many of them, it might as well be. This is a clear violation of their 8th amendment rights. Furthermore, the prison rape jokes are not commonplace in any other developed country, so obviously it IS possible to prevent it.

The entire premise of our justice system is flawed IMO. The default punishment for any serious crime is X amount of time in prison. But that misses the point of prison. They are there A) to be rehabilitated so that they are able to reenter society later on, and B) to be excluded from society to prevent them from endangering others.

Goal A is such a miserable failure that it's hardly even worth commenting on. Goal B misses the point, because most of the people in prison never posed any danger to anyone to begin with. Does a guy who steals a car, or commits insider trading, or possesses child porn, or drives while intoxicated really need to be excluded from society and sodomized in the ass? Would it hurt society to instead punish them with house arrest, an ankle bracelet, a cash fine, and limited visitation rights?

IMO prison should be the option of last resort, only for the hardened criminals whose mere presence in the outside world represents a danger to society. And even then, they should be prevented from hurting one another. When the guards allow them to hurt each other, that's really no different than the government hurting them itself.

I think it should be clear that work can be done on protecting prisoners from one another, though the situation is not nearly as bad as you portray to my mind. What you describe was the case in the 70's and 80's and probably before, but alot of work has been made on the situation.

Kandahar said:

This is a topic that never seems to get much attention, since the vast majority of people in this country have never even been inside of a prison and have little sympathy for criminals..

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Why should anyone have any sympathy for these people?

But the conditions in most American prisons are absolutely barbaric.

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Thats because inmates run the prisons,guards are merely there to keep the inmates inside.

Prisoners are beaten by one another every day. They are forced to live most of their lives in tiny little cages, with only a few hours each day for exercise and/or work. They are forced, coerced, or sold into sexual slavery for decades. Gang violence and racial violence is rife in prisons, and spills over into the community at large once the offenders are released (and still have grudges against one another).

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When you stick a bunch of scum together and allow them many luxuries and freedoms in prison what do you think is going to happen? If you stuck normal people in a facility where there was one or two people per room, they basically have the same luxuries they do on the outside and they can have conjugal visits, most people would call that a dormitory and would not act like subhuman scum.

Yet many people seem to think that they deserve whatever happens to them in prison, and that they forfeit the most basic human rights the minute they are convicted of any crime. Many people make light of the situation. Whenever some unlikeable famous person is sentenced to prison, the "Don't drop the soap" jokes are the first thing that come to many people's minds (and I'm not excluding myself). But should we really be making light of their situation? The conditions they face are horrid...probably not all that different from living in Josef Fritzl's basement.

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Whats sad is the whole dropping the soap thing is what many people fear about prison. If your some ignorant little **** who thinks he is the baddest many person on the block he does not worry about this until its too late.

When convicts are sentenced to prison, rape is not a part of their sentence. But for many of them, it might as well be. This is a clear violation of their 8th amendment rights. Furthermore, the prison rape jokes are not commonplace in any other developed country, so obviously it IS possible to prevent it.

The entire premise of our justice system is flawed IMO. The default punishment for any serious crime is X amount of time in prison. But that misses the point of prison. They are there A) to be rehabilitated so that they are able to reenter society later on, and B) to be excluded from society to prevent them from endangering others.

Goal A is such a miserable failure that it's hardly even worth commenting on. Goal B misses the point, because most of the people in prison never posed any danger to anyone to begin with. Does a guy who steals a car, or commits insider trading, or possesses child porn, or drives while intoxicated really need to be excluded from society and sodomized in the ass?

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Many people consider crime prevention outside of prisons to be of a higher priority.

Would it hurt society to instead punish them with house arrest, an ankle bracelet, a cash fine, and limited visitation rights?

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Even non-violent criminals deserve to be put in prison.Bernard Madoff for example deserve prison.

IMO prison should be the option of last resort, only for the hardened criminals whose mere presence in the outside world represents a danger to society.

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Prisons are places of punishments. We as society have deemed certain crimes worthy or incarceration. Your pro-junkie/weed should be legal bias clouds your mind.

And even then, they should be prevented from hurting one another. When the guards allow them to hurt each other, that's really no different than the government hurting them itself

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I knew you were a scumbag sympathizer.


As long as inmates are allowed to socialize with each other, have the same luxuries they do on the outside and many other things individuals are not really going to fear going to prison. Its like sending a child to his room as punishment when he has a phone,tv,computer,video games and all kinds of toys,how is sending him to his room a punishment when he has the same thing on the inside? It isn't a punishment its a joke.

Kandahar said:

This is a topic that never seems to get much attention, since the vast majority of people in this country have never even been inside of a prison and have little sympathy for criminals. But the conditions in most American prisons are absolutely barbaric.

Prisoners are beaten by one another every day. They are forced to live most of their lives in tiny little cages, with only a few hours each day for exercise and/or work. They are forced, coerced, or sold into sexual slavery for decades. Gang violence and racial violence is rife in prisons, and spills over into the community at large once the offenders are released (and still have grudges against one another).

Yet many people seem to think that they deserve whatever happens to them in prison, and that they forfeit the most basic human rights the minute they are convicted of any crime. Many people make light of the situation. Whenever some unlikeable famous person is sentenced to prison, the "Don't drop the soap" jokes are the first thing that come to many people's minds (and I'm not excluding myself). But should we really be making light of their situation? The conditions they face are horrid...probably not all that different from living in Josef Fritzl's basement.

When convicts are sentenced to prison, rape is not a part of their sentence. But for many of them, it might as well be. This is a clear violation of their 8th amendment rights. Furthermore, the prison rape jokes are not commonplace in any other developed country, so obviously it IS possible to prevent it.

The entire premise of our justice system is flawed IMO. The default punishment for any serious crime is X amount of time in prison. But that misses the point of prison. They are there A) to be rehabilitated so that they are able to reenter society later on, and B) to be excluded from society to prevent them from endangering others.

Goal A is such a miserable failure that it's hardly even worth commenting on. Goal B misses the point, because most of the people in prison never posed any danger to anyone to begin with. Does a guy who steals a car, or commits insider trading, or possesses child porn, or drives while intoxicated really need to be excluded from society and sodomized in the ass? Would it hurt society to instead punish them with house arrest, an ankle bracelet, a cash fine, and limited visitation rights?

IMO prison should be the option of last resort, only for the hardened criminals whose mere presence in the outside world represents a danger to society. And even then, they should be prevented from hurting one another. When the guards allow them to hurt each other, that's really no different than the government hurting them itself.

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As far as I'm concerned we might as well pay them welfare if we keep the system the same.

Once you commit a crime in this country, your pretty much forever labeled with the scarlet letter of it and have limited ability to improve upon your past
failures.

There should be an option for educational rehab while in prison as well as a clear record for first time non violent offenders after they complete their sentence with good behavior.

As much as I think some deserve it, rape shouldn't be a part of serving time in prison but thats what you get when you don't pay guards anything worth a ****.

We've made some good steps by making the sentencing guidelines advisory, but there's still a lot to do. I think that the problems of prison assault are too attenuated from a direct government action to constitute an 8th Amendment violation, but I do agree that it's a serious problem. As we continue down the road of decriminalization, things should get better.

jamesrage said:

Why should anyone have any sympathy for these people?

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Because not everyone who commits a crime is a monster. And even if they were, there is no reason to treat them as badly as they treated others.

jamesrage said:

Thats because inmates run the prisons,guards are merely there to keep the inmates inside.

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That is NOT how the system should work, which is exactly what I'm talking about. Guards should be responsible for protecting inmates from one another. If they allow inmates to "run the prisons," then they aren't doing their jobs.

jamesrage said:

When you stick a bunch of scum together and allow them many luxuries and freedoms in prison what do you think is going to happen? If you stuck normal people in a facility where there was one or two people per room, they basically have the same luxuries they do on the outside and they can have conjugal visits, most people would call that a dormitory and would not act like subhuman scum.

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Have you ever heard of the Stanford Prison Experiment?

jamesrage said:

Whats sad is the whole dropping the soap thing is what many people fear about prison. If your some ignorant little **** who thinks he is the baddest many person on the block he does not worry about this until its too late.

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So you think that becoming a sexual slave for years is an acceptable punishment for grand theft auto?

jamesrage said:

Many people consider crime prevention outside of prisons to be of a higher priority.

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And you don't think that a guy who has been beaten every day in prison might be a little embittered when he gets out, and therefore more likely to commit violent crimes (even if he never committed a violent crime in his life before going to prison)?

jamesrage said:

Even non-violent criminals deserve to be put in prison.Bernard Madoff for example deserve prison.

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Why is locking people up in a tiny little cage with rapists the default punishment for any misdeed? Bernie Madoff is not a threat to anyone if he's under house arrest instead of in prison.

jamesrage said:

Prisons are places of punishments. We as society have deemed certain crimes worthy or incarceration. Your pro-junkie/weed should be legal bias clouds your mind.

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Drug crimes are the best example of the injustice of our "justice system." But they aren't the only example. If people aren't posing a physical threat to other people, there is no reason to put them in a cage. Prisons should be reserved for rapists, child molesters, robbers, murderers, and some assailants. Beyond that, there aren't very many common crimes where putting them in a cage is necessary.

jamesrage said:

I knew you were a scumbag sympathizer.

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:yawn:

jamesrage said:

As long as inmates are allowed to socialize with each other, have the same luxuries they do on the outside and many other things individuals are not really going to fear going to prison. Its like sending a child to his room as punishment when he has a phone,tv,computer,video games and all kinds of toys,how is sending him to his room a punishment when he has the same thing on the inside? It isn't a punishment its a joke.

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We don't have to give them a phone, tv, computer, video games, and all kinds of toys. But I don't think it's too much to ask that we not let them rape each other and beat each other senseless, and that we don't lock them in cages unless they truly need to be isolated from society for society's protection.

He's already stated that he has no problem with someone who spends a night in jail because of a minor charge getting raped. He says that if they're in jail, they're criminals and they deserve what they get.

I don't think you're going to win him over.

Kandahar,

You bring up some excellent points. I too believe our criminal justice system is outdated and inefficient. I believe many of the injustices you speak of could be effectively mitigated by removing many of the liberties prisoners enjoy. For example, why in the world would anyone allow dozens of violent criminals to commingle with one another in an open field!? I don't know how many times I've seen prison riots or violent assaults occur in "the yard" and the solution to this seems painfully obvious (don't allow them to freely and openly associate with one another) yet it remains a problem.

I think the solution is two fold: stop giving prisoners liberties they don't deserve and restructure the justice system in a way that accurately reflects the severity of certain crimes (as you have suggested).

Is prison meant to reform or punish?

Ethereal said:

Kandahar,

You bring up some excellent points. I too believe our criminal justice system is outdated and inefficient. I believe many of the injustices you speak of could be effectively mitigated by removing many of the liberties prisoners enjoy. For example, why in the world would anyone allow dozens of violent criminals to commingle with one another in an open field!? I don't know how many times I've seen prison riots or violent assaults occur in "the yard" and the solution to this seems painfully obvious (don't allow them to freely and openly associate with one another) yet it remains a problem.

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Because the vast majority of prisoners aren't serving life sentences, and it is in society's best interest to not have 500,000 people going insane from lack of interaction before being released back into the public.

B L Zeebub said:

Is prison meant to reform or punish?

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Both, and more.

Man, you left out a galaxy of possible choices.

I voted for "The government should take more action to curtail gang activity and racialist activity in prisons", which seems to be pretty universal and half of "Drugs should be legalized and all nonviolent drug offenders should be freed from prison". I don't necessarily agree that drugs should be legalized, but that nonviolent drug offenders really don't belong behind bars, they deserve to receive treatment to beat their addiction, not hard time that will simply exacerbate the problem.

As far as I'm concerned, prison needs to do three things to be effective:

1) It needs to protect society.
2) It needs to punish the guilty.
3) It needs to prepare the criminal for eventual return to society.

If it doesn't do all three of the above, said criminal should not be in prison, there are alternative means to achieve a satisfactory end.

Serious question - what's up with the word "racialist"? I'd never heard it until a few months ago, and now it's popping up everywhere. Is it the hot new term for racist, or is there a slightly different connotation?

RightinNYC said:

Serious question - what's up with the word "racialist"? I'd never heard it until a few months ago, and now it's popping up everywhere. Is it the hot new term for racist, or is there a slightly different connotation?

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I think its pc term so racist can feel better about themselves.

I am astounded, and a bit dismayed, to find myself at least partially in agreement with Kandahar. :rofl

Yes, we'd do better to put most non-violent offenders into some other sort of punishment... some kind of repayment program where they have to recompense their victim's losses for example.

Drug users who haven't committed any other crime... they'd be better off in a detox program really.

Now, prisons are not, on the whole, as bad as he's making them out to be. Well, some are, but most aren't. That's been my experience anyway.

I think reform in sentencing needs to go hand-in-hand with this. If someone is probably able to be rehabilitated, they shouldn't spend 20 years in prison locked up with hardened criminals and learning more bad habits. OTOH, if someone is a danger to society and unlikely to reform, they need to be locked up for life and never get out.

To sum up, we could do better than we're doing.

G.

Kandahar said:

Why is locking people up in a tiny little cage with rapists the default punishment for any misdeed? Bernie Madoff is not a threat to anyone if he's under house arrest instead of in prison.

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I don't know. House arrest seems pretty damned cushy. Is house arrest the usual sentence for those convicted of massive investor fraud?

Kandahar said:

Drug crimes are the best example of the injustice of our "justice system." But they aren't the only example. If people aren't posing a physical threat to other people, there is no reason to put them in a cage.

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In general, I agree, but there are drug crimes and there are drug crimes. The guy caught with an eighth in his pocket is entirely different than the guy caught with a cigarette boat full of bud off the Florida Keys. Still, there has to be some sort of punishment for breaking a possession law... (or, we could decriminalize bud for personal use, but I suppose that's asking too much). :wink:

Kandahar said:

Prisons should be reserved for rapists, child molesters, robbers, murderers, and some assailants. Beyond that, there aren't very many common crimes where putting them in a cage is necessary.

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In my world that bolded part up there would read: "Execution should be reserved for rapists, child molesters, murderers, and some robbers/assailants, and we don't use it often enough."

Provocative? Yes! (I'm complicated that way.) I have compassion for most folks, but not for that list up there. And that sort of plays into your argument that we shouldn't be housing the deadly violent types with those who don't pose a physical threat to others - neither of us thinks they belong together, but I'd remove them from all equations entirely and forever. This also frees up prison space and resources that would be better used on those that have at least a chance of rehabilitation, and lessens the chance of inmate-on-inmate violence.

Kandahar said:

We don't have to give them a phone, tv, computer, video games, and all kinds of toys. But I don't think it's too much to ask that we not let them rape each other and beat each other senseless, and that we don't lock them in cages unless they truly need to be isolated from society for society's protection.

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We agree again. Our prisons are entirely too crowded and inmates spend vast amounts of time doing nothing. I say (after we free all the guys busted for personal possession!) we should put them to work. Hard work. Earning at least some of their keep by growing their own food, paving roads on chain gangs, cleaning up after natural disasters, building levees, and so on. The benefits are huge - a lot of work gets done for cheap, the prisoners earn a little money and self worth. Finally, they get so much exercise that at the end of the day all they have the energy to do is sleep. No rapes in the shower room. No staying up all night to dig your way out with a spoon. No murdering your cellie in his bunk.

Think Cool Hand Luke.

:happy:

Decriminalization/legalization of many drugs is the first start. Commuting the sentences of all non-violent drug offenders would be the next step.

Drug and educational rehabilitation must be taken more seriously. I think an option of for punishment of offenders who commit crimes where the use of drugs are a factor should be placed in a rehabilitation program. Recidivism is a huge factor with regards to convicts, we will more than likely deal with them again.

When you examine the cost of punishing an offender and weigh not only the monetary costs but the human costs involved you will quickly see that rehabilitation programs offer the greatest hope of turning criminal around and are the most cost effective means of addressing the problem. Turning them into productive members of society as opposed to repeatedly dealing with later on down the line is the preferable option, yet we fail to invest nearly enough resources in this area. I've dealt with literally dozens of offenders that have been arrested more than ten times, in the county jail just as many times, and sent to prison at least two or more times. The vast majority are drug offenders. The associated cost is just outrageous. If we could have short circuited that cycle in just a third of them society would have seen a major lessening of the burden.

I don't know how we address gang related issues in prison any more than we are. I have ideas on this that involved segregating younger first time prisoners in a rehab intensive anti-gang program, but the facilities for this kind of thing would need to be built. Prisoners run the society within the prison, this is unarguable. The best you can do is keep know gang and racial enemies segregated, but in reality all this does is help quell the gang rivalry. It proliferates the reliance on gang affiliation for survival, however. And how do you measure the true crimineogenic effect of prison life upon inmates? Prison society, as it exists today, builds smarter, tougher criminals for the most part. Certainly some inmates leave prison and don't offend again, but more often that not inmates will go on to reoffend, for a number of reasons.

I think that it's important that we invest money in keeping non-violent offenders separated from violent offenders. Rehabilitation efforts hold the most hope for many of these people.

Prison is primarily about segregating offenders from society as a means of protecting society "right now." But in my mind it's an exercise in futility under the current design. The mission needs to be two fold, protect society now and in the future by rehabilitating these people as best we can. Knowingly taking a bull**** bravado attitude and saying "**** them, they are criminal scum" is completely ignorant and only exacerbates the problem. If we don't take steps to solve these problems one inmate at a time we will deal with these problems over and over again, one offender at a time.

Most prison sentences are stupid.

For smaller offenses, such as dui, drunk and disorderly, et cetera....bring back public floggings and the stocks.

Embezzlers and fraudsters should spend a period in involuntary servitude to the people they wronged.

The violent ones that constitute a physical danger should be dumped in a penal colony somewhere...find a nice remote island where they can be dropped off, food drops every month, then let them do whatever the hell they want to each other.

celticlord said:

Most prison sentences are stupid.

For smaller offenses, such as dui, drunk and disorderly, et cetera....bring back public floggings and the stocks.

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Floggings? For drunk and disorderly? DUI is deadly and deserves harsh sentences, but there's nothing wrong with simple fines (definitely more cost-efficient than the stocks).

celticlord said:

Embezzlers and fraudsters should spend a period in involuntary servitude to the people they wronged.

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That sounds like it wouldn't lead to abuse at all. Not.

celticlord said:

The violent ones that constitute a physical danger should be dumped in a penal colony somewhere...find a nice remote island where they can be dropped off, food drops every month, then let them do whatever the hell they want to each other.

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So instead of giving some nineteen-year-old robber the chance to redeem himself and lead a new life, you'd rather just throw him to the lions?

Edify_Always_In_All_Ways said:

So instead of giving some nineteen-year-old robber the chance to redeem himself and lead a new life, you'd rather just throw him to the lions?

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Depends...how violent is he?

A guy who goes waving a gun around in a stop-and-rob so he can clean out the cash register to pay for his next fix....no, I'm not terribly interested in redeeming him. I am much more interested in keeping the cashier on the graveyard shift safe.

Edify_Always_In_All_Ways said:

Floggings? For drunk and disorderly? DUI is deadly and deserves harsh sentences, but there's nothing wrong with simple fines (definitely more cost-efficient than the stocks).

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How is a fine more cost efficient than the stocks? A set of stocks requires little in the way of maintenance, no administrative overhead, no bureaucracy....they are simplicity itself.

You spank children when they start acting ugly.....who's to say the practice should be stopped merely because they attain legal majority?

RightinNYC said:

Serious question - what's up with the word "racialist"? I'd never heard it until a few months ago, and now it's popping up everywhere. Is it the hot new term for racist, or is there a slightly different connotation?

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It's slightly different. Racialist generally applies to separatist groups like the Aryan Nation, the Ku Klux Klan, the Nation of Islam, the New Black Panthers, and various race-based gangs. Someone can be a racist without being a racialist, but they can't be a racialist without being a racist.

Here in California prisons are out of control. It is a business ran for profit and the prisoners are their capital. The prison guard union is the most powerful union in the state and any candidate, or proposition that challenges or undermines their power is crushed by them. For example, the prison guard union put more than 2 million in smokescreen advertising against proposition 5, a proposition that would expand the already proven successful prop. 36. Both measures handled non-violent drug offenders and how they are sentenced. Looks like the union was afraid they might lose some overtime hours.

Here is an example of their overreaching power in the state. One of my father's friends got in trouble with his insurance for a business he owned. His defense was that he left someone else in charge of it and they ripped off the agency. Regardless if this is true or not, he is still responsible, this is not what my family and I had an issue with. The Feds got involved but dropped all charges since the money he "ripped" off was less then it would cost to prosecute him, I think he said that Feds do not prosecute people for his crime unless it is more than $10,000, he was guilty of $3,000 worth. It did not stop the state of California from not picking up the charges and continuing the prosecution and giving him 4 years in prison. I think it would have been a more worthwhile "punishment"; to fine him twice what he "took" and give him a hundred hours of community service. But no, the prison industrial complex sucked him into the system along with any contributions he could give to society for his crime. Now only the prison shareholders get to see any benefit. He worked in prison everyday and got out after 2 years. He lost his wife, lost his kid and now works in some factory, when he used to own his own business. Now he was at a white-collar prison and he said his story is the rule and not the exception among the inmates that are there for bounced checks, bad tax returns etc.

The system is even worse for drug offenders as it is a revolving door for them and a constant revenue stream for the prison industrial complex but both nonviolent drug offenders and petty white collar offenders can be dealt with in both more affordable and more effective means.

RightinNYC said:

Because the vast majority of prisoners aren't serving life sentences, and it is in society's best interest to not have 500,000 people going insane from lack of interaction before being released back into the public.

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I was specific to violent criminals. Prisoners with a history of violence or gang affiliations should never be allowed to commingle openly with one another. Your misplaced compassion for their mental health puts others in grave danger. The "yard" is rife with gang fights, attempted assassinations, violent assaults, drug dealing, and is usually the flash point for most prison riots. The idea that dozens of people with a predilection for violence should be allowed to openly and freely associate with one another is ludicrous in the extreme. There are other ways for prisoners to interact and socialize.

Prison reform
Several things must happen...intelligent people must become involved.
Today's prison population, IMO, is hopeless...this rehabilitation simply does not work.. This must be accepted..
But rehabilitation may work in the reform schools and it will work in our schools...we need a lot more parental involvement....
My idea is states rights.
Keep the feds out of this...
After a time, have the states compare notes..
Some things work, some do not.
For 50,000 years lawbreakers have been treated like scum, this continues(but softened) today...
This does not work, IMO..
Prevention can work, its starts even before the cold is born and continues every day of his life...
Children's services should receive much more, the prisons, much less..
Reduce the prison population by legalizing and taxing drugs that should never have been illegal....still less money for the prisons..
Maybe now the taxes can be reduced... the conservatives will like this....but, they will not be, for universal health care costs money..
Farrah Fawcett is apparently wealthy enough for her cancer care; but Walter White was not....