Are some words inherently offensive or is context important?

Inferno said:

It gave people at the time to achieve a modicum of success in fields that at the time they could not grow in. It helped those that were put down by by discrimination to be made more.

Here is an interesting example. I was applying for University and took the entrance test. This goes back to 1970. My entrance test was in the top 3. The university was giving full pay scholarships to the top five. I was in. Full pay. The Dean called me for a meeting where he told me that I was just a woman and he was moving me down to position 6 because a man would better use the scholarship. I was just a woman he said and I would probably be home married to one of these guys having babies.

That was affirmative action of another kind. It was me getting screwed by the system because I lacked a penis. Don't tell me about the poor males that may have felt some pain. They were never told they were less because they didn't have a vagina.

This happened to blacks in favor of white males. It happened to women in favor of men. Affirmative Action promotes equality.

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That is a horrendous story, one I truly hope we have moved past in this country and that I think, at least in the majority of people I hope, we have moved past.

That said...

While Affirmative Action at one point may've been needed, how can you justify now the exact same situation potentially happening with someone going

"I'm sorry you're not black, hispanic, or asian and you're male and you're christian so therefore despite meeting all the requirements for this scholarship, we're going to push you back".

What I don't get with this thing is how someone can go through such a horrible and frankly completely unfair and WRONG of a situation.......and then 30 years later essentially be promoting something that now does the same thing but just changes the victem. Is that really "fixing" anything, or is it just changing it?

aaronssongs said:

go into the hood and use those words as freely as you do in this forum, in effect, putting your money where your mouth is...do that, and I'll concede.

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I've done that before.

It was in response one guy looking at me and another white friend I was with and saying "Anyone bring any cheese for these crackers?" (good line, by the way)

I said "That spook over there did" pointing at my other friend, who is black.

We laughed at it.

Inferno said:

I was 12 in 1964 and i was called a queen and a dyke. It took me years to get over that. In 1964 they could have put me in a mental hospital if people thought I was a lesbian. I was so those words did have a certain power the sting as i took the words for my own identity fell away.

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Completely understandable, and I would never begrudge or scold a child or even truly an adult, but definitely a child, for being hurt by that.

Earlier I said that generally someone is weak to allow someones words to hurt them. People, in our typical PC society, took that as to be meant as an insult, but it wasn't.

Children are generally weaker than adults, both physically AND mentally. They are developing and forming their grasp upon the word. Their innocence is more firmly intacted and they tend to wear their emotions on their sleeves more. In many ways, emotionally, child are weaker than their adult counter parts. Far more open to crying, far more open to fall into fits of emotion, far more prone to be controlled by compulsions on average. That is not said to insult children, or even say children are bad, but is simply pointing out a biological situation with children. And because of this lack of control for emotions and this development words are more easily able to hurt.

Its why a 5 year old may cry and be extremely upset if they're called a "mean doodoo head" where as I think most 25 year olds would just be confused if someone called them that and most 55 year old would probably almost laugh at the absurdity of it.

You grew and your control and grasp of your emotional state became stronger, and as it became stronger people had less control over you through manipulating your emotions with their words.

Tucker Case said:

I've done that before.

It was in response one guy looking at me and another white friend I was with and saying "Anyone bring any cheese for these crackers?" (good line, by the way)

I said "That spook over there did" pointing at my other friend, who is black.

We laughed at it.

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Not the choice of words I was referring to....and you know it. Thanks for the anecdote, though.

Inferno said:

It gave people at the time to achieve a modicum of success in fields that at the time they could not grow in. It helped those that were put down by by discrimination to be made more.

Here is an interesting example. I was applying for University and took the entrance test. This goes back to 1970. My entrance test was in the top 3. The university was giving full pay scholarships to the top five. I was in. Full pay. The Dean called me for a meeting where he told me that I was just a woman and he was moving me down to position 6 because a man would better use the scholarship. I was just a woman he said and I would probably be home married to one of these guys having babies.

That was affirmative action of another kind. It was me getting screwed by the system because I lacked a penis. Don't tell me about the poor males that may have felt some pain. They were never told they were less because they didn't have a vagina.

This happened to blacks in favor of white males. It happened to women in favor of men. Affirmative Action promotes equality.

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And I disagree wholeheartedly. It promotes underachievement because it advances race/gender/etc over achievement and ability. You got screwed and your achievement meant nothing next to filling a quota and that is just wrong. Now, instead of a person of ability and competence, the university gets a lackluster male candidate. Underachievement advanced for the sake of a quota.

I think that race should be completely left off the table in terms of making decisions of that nature. Affirmative action hurt way more than it helped.

Tucker Case said:

I've done that before.

It was in response one guy looking at me and another white friend I was with and saying "Anyone bring any cheese for these crackers?" (good line, by the way)

I said "That spook over there did" pointing at my other friend, who is black.

We laughed at it.

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If you were really a master of double entendres your friend would've also worked for the CIA

aaronssongs said:

Not the choice of words I was referring to....and you know it. Thanks for the anecdote, though.

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I thought it was just racial slurs in general being discussed. My bad. :3oops:

I wasn't offended by being called a cracker, though. Friggin' line was funny, too.

Zyphlin said:

That is a horrendous story, one I truly hope we have moved past in this country and that I think, at least in the majority of people I hope, we have moved past.

That said...

While Affirmative Action at one point may've been needed, how can you justify now the exact same situation potentially happening with someone going

"I'm sorry you're not black, hispanic, or asian and you're male and you're christian so therefore despite meeting all the requirements for this scholarship, we're going to push you back".

What I don't get with this thing is how someone can go through such a horrible and frankly completely unfair and WRONG of a situation.......and then 30 years later essentially be promoting something that now does the same thing but just changes the victem. Is that really "fixing" anything, or is it just changing it?

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I see your point and accept it as true to a certain extent. As soon as we lose the idea of the first black coach of the first woman then we can lose affirmative action. When we all just become people instead of a gender color or race then we will have achieved true equality.

Zyphlin said:

Completely understandable, and I would never begrudge or scold a child or even truly an adult, but definitely a child, for being hurt by that.

Earlier I said that generally someone is weak to allow someones words to hurt them. People, in our typical PC society, took that as to be meant as an insult, but it wasn't.

Children are generally weaker than adults, both physically AND mentally. They are developing and forming their grasp upon the word. Their innocence is more firmly intacted and they tend to wear their emotions on their sleeves more. In many ways, emotionally, child are weaker than their adult counter parts. Far more open to crying, far more open to fall into fits of emotion, far more prone to be controlled by compulsions on average. That is not said to insult children, or even say children are bad, but is simply pointing out a biological situation with children. And because of this lack of control for emotions and this development words are more easily able to hurt.

Its why a 5 year old may cry and be extremely upset if they're called a "mean doodoo head" where as I think most 25 year olds would just be confused if someone called them that and most 55 year old would probably almost laugh at the absurdity of it.

You grew and your control and grasp of your emotional state became stronger, and as it became stronger people had less control over you through manipulating your emotions with their words.

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It also helped when i had the words I'M Queer tattooed on my arm.

Inferno said:

It gave people at the time to achieve a modicum of success in fields that at the time they could not grow in. It helped those that were put down by by discrimination to be made more.

Here is an interesting example. I was applying for University and took the entrance test. This goes back to 1970. My entrance test was in the top 3. The university was giving full pay scholarships to the top five. I was in. Full pay. The Dean called me for a meeting where he told me that I was just a woman and he was moving me down to position 6 because a man would better use the scholarship. I was just a woman he said and I would probably be home married to one of these guys having babies.

That was affirmative action of another kind. It was me getting screwed by the system because I lacked a penis. Don't tell me about the poor males that may have felt some pain. They were never told they were less because they didn't have a vagina.

This happened to blacks in favor of white males. It happened to women in favor of men. Affirmative Action promotes equality.

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Notice its always underachieving "white males" that always go off on AA.
Then some of them have the nerve to cite "reverse discrimination". It ain't discrimination when all roads lead to you. Heck, they are just being asked to share a piece of the pie, and get panties in a wad for the asking. They, collectively, have no intention in sharing any parts of the pie...so, we have AA to balance things out. And contrary to popular belief, AA insures that "qualified" applicants get consideration, and not the lie that "substandard" or unqualified applicants "get the nod". That's always the mantra they throw out...I never heard such whining, and pity parties. "Woe is us..the negroes are taking jobs( and college positions) which rightfully belong to us....even though we're ordinary, and barely graduated from high school, scored less than 700 on the SAT, but because we built this country, with our sweat and bare hands, we deserve our front place in line....cuz we're white and right".
Bull hockey. That is the myth folks like myself and others are trying to destroy. Try competing on a level playing field, and see how many get through. There are a whole lot of blacks smarter than a whole lot of whites. It's genetics, and biology. Breathe.

aaronssongs said:

Notice its always underachieving "white males" that always go off on AA.
Then some of them have the nerve to cite "reverse discrimination". It ain't discrimination when all roads lead to you. Heck, they are just being asked to share a piece of the pie, and get panties in a wad for the asking. They, collectively, have no intention in sharing any parts of the pie...so, we have AA to balance things out. And contrary to popular belief, AA insures that "qualified" applicants get consideration, and not the lie that "substandard" or unqualified applicants "get the nod". That's always the mantra they throw out...I never heard such whining, and pity parties. "Woe is us..the negroes are taking jobs( and college positions) which rightfully belong to us....even though we're ordinary, and barely graduated from high school, scored less than 700 on the SAT, but because we built this country, with our sweat and bare hands, we deserve our front place in line....cuz we're white and right".
Bull hockey. That is the myth folks like myself and others are trying to destroy. Try competing on a level playing field, and see how many get through. There are a whole lot of blacks smarter than a whole lot of whites. It's genetics, and biology. Breathe.

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That's all well and good save that statistics and policy wording prove this to be completely false...in terms of AA actually helping. I would like for you to put up or shut up...I need to see examples of the 700 SAT scorer getting the nod over a better achiever and that low scorer being white.

If you can't do that, I'm just going to go ahead and relegate this post to the pile of other nonsense you have a tendency to spew.

aaronssongs said:

Notice its always underachieving "white males" that always go off on AA.
Then some of them have the nerve to cite "reverse discrimination". It ain't discrimination when all roads lead to you. Heck, they are just being asked to share a piece of the pie, and get panties in a wad for the asking. They, collectively, have no intention in sharing any parts of the pie...so, we have AA to balance things out. And contrary to popular belief, AA insures that "qualified" applicants get consideration, and not the lie that "substandard" or unqualified applicants "get the nod". That's always the mantra they throw out...I never heard such whining, and pity parties. "Woe is us..the negroes are taking jobs( and college positions) which rightfully belong to us....even though we're ordinary, and barely graduated from high school, scored less than 700 on the SAT, but because we built this country, with our sweat and bare hands, we deserve our front place in line....cuz we're white and right".
Bull hockey. That is the myth folks like myself and others are trying to destroy. Try competing on a level playing field, and see how many get through. There are a whole lot of blacks smarter than a whole lot of whites. It's genetics, and biology. Breathe.

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Just out of curiosity, but why is it okay for you to use racial stereotypes? I realize that there are a lot of white people who feel that way, but a lot of people of different races have their own racial prejudices. It isn't just white people. I think the fact that you just made a rather blanketed statement using a poorly constructed stereotype only proves my point.

dclxvinoise said:

Just out of curiosity, but why is it okay for you to use racial stereotypes? I realize that there are a lot of white people who feel that way, but a lot of people of different races have their own racial prejudices. It isn't just white people. I think the fact that you just made a rather blanketed statement using a poorly constructed stereotype only proves my point.

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D, did you just use logic to try to undermine the illogical? :shock:

Oh no he di'in't. :lol:

Inferno said:

It also helped when i had the words I'M Queer tattooed on my arm.

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Yes, but it takes a good bit of emotional stability and strength to be able to take something that previously so offended you and embrace it at least some quasi sort of way to tatoo it upon your own body.

If the word was so inherently, unquestionable, unfathomably offensive in every use and every stretch of the imagination, which aaron seems to suggest some words are, than you would not have been able to muster the strength to take such an action of essentially rebelling against those that would hurt you and physical acknowledgedment of your strength over your own emotional state.

dclxvinoise said:

Just out of curiosity, but why is it okay for you to use racial stereotypes? I realize that there are a lot of white people who feel that way, but a lot of people of different races have their own racial prejudices. It isn't just white people. I think the fact that you just made a rather blanketed statement using a poorly constructed stereotype only proves my point.

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I'm just playing the game like it's being played here. You all made the rules...now you have a problem, that the tables have been turned. Isn't that always the case.

aaronssongs said:

Notice its always underachieving "white males" that always go off on AA.

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I am extremely offended that you stereotype, smear, and belittle me, my life experiences, and my place in this world with your broad over generalization. I demand that you not make such a generalization again or your are actively and intentionally attempting to offend me and I have no recourse but to consider you in some regard bigotted against white males on this issue. *

aaronssongs said:

I'm just playing the game like it's being played here. You all made the rules...now you have a problem, that the tables have been turned. Isn't that always the case.

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I think its more an issue with holier than thou hypocrites. But that's just my take on it.

Zyphlin said:

I am extremely offended that you stereotype, smear, and belittle me, my life experiences, and my place in this world with your broad over generalization. I demand that you not make such a generalization again or your are actively and intentionally attempting to offend me and I have no recourse but to consider you in some regard bigotted against white males on this issue. *

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I didn't single any one person out, personally.
I prefaced my comments with "if the shoe one is trying on fits, then wear it. If not, it doesn't apply.
I'm not supposed to be offended by someone using the n-word, in casual conversation, but you can take me out of context to include yourself?????
Talk about victimhood, and double standards.
I believe that "white privilege" is real and practiced by many. Am I bigot for believing as I do? Not anymore than you for allowing so vile a word to be spell out, and used, ad nauseum, in this forum, with excuses for such.
Only racists should be offended. If you're not one, ignore it.

Originally Posted by aaronssongs View Post
Notice its always underachieving "white males" that always go off on AA.
I

am extremely offended that you stereotype, smear, and belittle me, my life experiences, and my place in this world with your broad over generalization. I demand that you not make such a generalization again or your are actively and intentionally attempting to offend me and I have no recourse but to consider you in some regard bigotted against white males on this issue. *

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Oh, pardon me. Did you not understand the statement? I said that it's always "underachieving white males" that have a problem with Affirmative Action.
Are you an underachieving white male? Or do you have a problem with AA? Which is it?
Which victim are you portraying?
Where is the offense? Where is the stereotype? I guess if you're looking for offense you can find it, anywhere, any time, and any how.
Don't make an issue where there is none.

Some people deliberately use certain words that they know full well will offend a lot of people. The word "nigger" is one example.

When confronted about what they've said, the disingenious defense is often some lame blathering about "context." I once had a boss who said something to me that I found offensive, and I told him so. His response? "You mustn't take offense because no offense was intended." Somehow I was supposed to dredge up some nonexistent psychic powers and figure out that his offensive remark reallly wasn't offensive after all.

Birdzeye said:

Some people deliberately use certain words that they know full well will offend a lot of people. The word "nigger" is one example.

When confronted about what they've said, the disingenious defense is often some lame blathering about "context." I once had a boss who said something to me that I found offensive, and I told him so. His response? "You mustn't take offense because no offense was intended." Somehow I was supposed to dredge up some nonexistent psychic powers and figure out that his offensive remark reallly wasn't offensive after all.

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But then you go back to some people looking for offense in everything. I've taken the attitude that unless I know you and you know me, I've absolutely no regard for what you find offensive or not unless you tell me, politely, that you find something I have said offensive. And even then, I am not going to guarantee that I will alter my speech for the sake of your tender sensibilities.

Zyphlin said:

Yes, but it takes a good bit of emotional stability and strength to be able to take something that previously so offended you and embrace it at least some quasi sort of way to tatoo it upon your own body.

If the word was so inherently, unquestionable, unfathomably offensive in every use and every stretch of the imagination, which aaron seems to suggest some words are, than you would not have been able to muster the strength to take such an action of essentially rebelling against those that would hurt you and physical acknowledgedment of your strength over your own emotional state.

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I was not going to let another persons ignorance defeat me and beat me up. I remember going to this guy to tattoo my arm. I will post a pic of the tattoo one of these days. It is maybe 3/4 inch letters and it makes my statement. If we allow words and PC lets many people never remove the sting from the words. It made me stronger and a better person to take that word to myself. Yes I could say I am queer. I am a dyke what is the problem. In this way I disarmed those that would hurt me with their own word.

* Ahh, the wonders of Irony.

aaronssongs said:

I didn't single any one person out, personally.
I prefaced my comments with "if the shoe one is trying on fits, then wear it. If not, it doesn't apply.

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No, you singled EVERYONE out. Your words, once more:

"Notice its always underachieving "white males" that always go off on AA."

Now, perhaps I'm confused, but I always thought always meant every time. It seems pretty clear you're stating that the people "always" complain about AA are "underachieving white males". Did you not?

Also, a note about preface. The definition of preface:

1. a preliminary statement in a book by the book's author or editor, setting forth its purpose and scope, expressing acknowledgment of assistance from others, etc.
2. an introductory part, as of a speech.
3. something preliminary or introductory

Hmm, that would seem to imply for you to have "prefaced" it by stating "if the shoe fits" it would've had to come BEFORE your original statement, yet that comment I quoted was the FIRST Thing you said.

Furthermore, I looked through your entire post. Not a single time during the entire thing of it did you at all say "if the shoe fits". You can't just make **** up and expect people to believe it when we can go back and read for ourselves.

Considering your comment, which frankly is a stereotyping generalization that you back up with zero information and I have no doubt in my mind if someone made it the opposite way you'd be waving the bigot flag around, about intelligence in your post I'd assume you'd show some yourself by not stating you prefaced something when you didn't and that you prefaced it with something you didn't even say.

I'm not supposed to be offended by someone using the n-word, in casual conversation, but you can take me out of context to include yourself?????
Talk about victimhood, and double standards.

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No, talk about Irony and using sarcasm to show your own BLATANT hypocracy. Someone said the n-word while talking about a news event and you suggested he was insensitive and borderline implied he was a racist.

Meanwhile, you CLEARLY and fully classify ANYONE that speaks ill about Afrimative Action as an "underachieving white male".

The blindness you have to your own hatred and bigotry while parading yourself around as some kind of king of tolerance that people should be ashamed to not live up to while you condemn people for stating FACTUAL things in casual conversation is what I was pointing out there.

Only racists should be offended. If you're not one, ignore it.

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So once again we have an example of Aaron stating something and therefore it must be so. Fine then, only race baiters would be offended by the n-word. If you're not one, ignore it. I stated it, just like Aaron stated it, so it MUST be true.

aaronssongs said:

Oh, pardon me. Did you not understand the statement? I said that it's always "underachieving white males" that have a problem with Affirmative Action.

Are you an underachieving white male? Or do you have a problem with AA? Which is it?

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I have an issue with Afirmative Action, not because it has ever victomzied me, I don't believe it has, but because I believe at this point in time it is a detriminet to society both to minorities and to whites and because I do not believe that the government should be imposing such measures.

Also, please find me any post where I'm talking about the "victem mentality".

I'm sorry you dislike a mirror being held up to your face, but I'm not surprised you dislike it and choose it ignore it and instead shatter it so you can go on denying.

Inferno said:

I was not going to let another persons ignorance defeat me and beat me up. I remember going to this guy to tattoo my arm. I will post a pic of the tattoo one of these days. It is maybe 3/4 inch letters and it makes my statement. If we allow words and PC lets many people never remove the sting from the words. It made me stronger and a better person to take that word to myself. Yes I could say I am queer. I am a dyke what is the problem. In this way I disarmed those that would hurt me with their own word.

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Because of the way you present that, I would never dream of using the "d" word in front of you.

Inferno said:

I was not going to let another persons ignorance defeat me and beat me up. I remember going to this guy to tattoo my arm. I will post a pic of the tattoo one of these days. It is maybe 3/4 inch letters and it makes my statement. If we allow words and PC lets many people never remove the sting from the words. It made me stronger and a better person to take that word to myself. Yes I could say I am queer. I am a dyke what is the problem. In this way I disarmed those that would hurt me with their own word.

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Thank you, and I agree.

Now, I'm going to start this by saying that in no way shape or form am I painting this in anyway near the kind of thing that homosexuals or minorities or even people with disabilities have to put up with (as the godfather of a down syndrome baby you'd be amazed how many homosexual and minority people I hear going "that's retarded" often. Hell, there's a song where that's the main chorus line, but I digress). Its not, no where near it. However, the action was similar and I have the utmost respect for Inferno for doing what she did. I was a bit of a mid drifter when I was younger, never wanting to fully go off with the outcasts and friends with some of the more popular kids but neither fitting in fully with either. I liked video games, I played role playing games and things like magic the gathering, and was on occasion known to read comic books. I generally liked school and did well. In 4th grade I got told I had to wear glasses, so on the big specs came. I was shy, played in the band, and had a slight issue pronouncing R's correctly which I still have issues at times (always run when your last name begins with an R). I was routinely picked on by the more popular kids that weren't exactly happy with me hanging around as a geek, a nerd, etc. As I stated earlier, I'm not in any way shape or form trying to say this was even a 1/10th of the kind of ridicule that homosexuals or minorities face. However, as a kid, these things did hurt me and actually changed my attitude and caused me to change how I was, even causing me to be rather mean to some of my friends at one point which I later came to regret.

As I got older and started realizing more things about emotions and the power people had over me I started calling myself a geek, actually liking the word and happily being labeled as such. I do so now because I realize that yeah, I have the tendancy to enjoy things that are "geeky" and to hell with people that dislike it, and I also know I have a tendancy to do things completely contrary to the typical "geeky" stereotype. Essentially, I no longer allowed it to be a word that I thought was bad but took it as a badge of simply what I enjoy and who I am.

This is a miniscule example, and Inferno's is far greater, but they're cut from the same cloth (albiet mine's the size of a postage stamp and hers is the size of a blanket). In both cases, we were allowing other people control over us through words and in both cases we said "no" and stopped allowing those words to control us but instead just made them the same as anything else.....a word.