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Could you justify secession?

Can you justify Secession?

  • Yes -- there are issues that can justify secession

    Votes: 20 83.3%
  • No -- secession is always wrong

    Votes: 4 16.7%

  • Total voters
    24
Considering this "Red State, Blue State" nonsense and where they're all located... well, I think if the Union were to split again there would be far more than a single fault line. But there's no doubt in my mind that such a dissolution could never occur without civil war.

Wouldn't mind seeing it myself, though I'd probably have to relocate.
I am not so sure that dissolution would necessarily lead to another civil war -- but suffice it to say that the dissolution of the US and/or another US civil war would have huge ramifications for the world, and would likely be the most significant event of whatever century that sees it.
 
Yes, I can justify secession today.
 
Secession certainly could be justified, if the federal government got bad enough. However, I don't think that secession would be justified now or at any time in American history. Furthermore, secession would be a foolish plan for any state. Even California relies too much on other states to truly function independently.

The legality of secession is entirely irrelevant. Even if it is legal, there is nothing that prevents the U.S. from invading, conquering and annexing the now foreign government. If the feds decide to use the military to prevent a state from breaking off, the constitution won't stop it.
 
Secession certainly could be justified, if the federal government got bad enough. However, I don't think that secession would be justified now or at any time in American history.

I'd kind of like to know what people think "bad enough" entails, exactly.
 
I'd kind of like to know what people think "bad enough" entails, exactly.
That is obviously subjective and a matter of opinion. My personal take on it is bad enough starts at the federal government willfully mis-interpreting the ninth and tenth amendments to the U.S. constitution, that has already happened, also bad enough in my opinion is willfully ignoring the constitution, as has happened to a degree, or even side stepping the constitution for ideological or political gain. Is it bad enough to warrant secession.....at this point no. Can it get there? absolutely.
 
In my opinion, secession should be illegal, unless the seceding state/area once had it's own independent country that was forcefully incorporated into the conquering country.

Since most of the States in the Union haven't been independent before, if they were independent, they weren't independent for long, so in my view, none of the states can justify their secession.

By this standard divorce should be illegal.
 
Set aside the politics of the moment. This is a purely hypothetical question.

Can you articulate a justification for a state seceding from the United States? What types of issues/grievances might justify a state withdrawing from the United States?

If you say there is no justification ever, what absolute guarantee can you articulate that state issues/grievances will achieve satisfactory resolution?

This is going to come as a shock to most people: but legally, every state was always a sovereign nation under the law-- just like England, France, Italy or China. The United States is NOT-- nor was it ever-- "one nation, indivisible." That's just a mantra created after the Civil War, in order to make people believe what isn't so.

Sovereign nations, by definition, don't need any "justification" to withdraw from federal republics, since they are answerable only to themselves and the sovereign that rules them.

In the US, that sovereign is the popular majority of the state in question: that's what they were before the Constitution, and that's how the Constitution was supposed to be enforced.

However in 1861, the Republican Party mounted a coup under Lincoln to conquer the states by force, under the false claim that they were one sovereign nation-- and had always been such-- rather than a federal republic of many sovereign nations; and in doing so, they murdered 300,000 who refused to submit to their demands, until they accomplished by force and lies, what they could not by law.
However legally the states are still sovereign nations, since that sovereignty was never offically reversed or altered in any way; again, just saying something, doesn't make it so-- no matter how many people you murder to make others say it as well-- and so the US is not "one nation, indivisible." It's still 50 sovereign nations, and each one has the same right to secede, as the nations of the UN have the right to secede from the UN.
 
This is going to come as a shock to most people: but legally, every state was always a sovereign nation under the law-- just like England, France, Italy or China. The United States is NOT-- nor was it ever-- "one nation, indivisible." That's just a mantra created after the Civil War, in order to make people believe what isn't so.

No. There's no shock involved in seeing the first post of a new poster be completely wrong.

First the Articles of Confederation limited state sovereignity and then the Constitution defined clear boundaries for both national and state spheres of authority.
 
No. There's no shock involved in seeing the first post of a new poster be completely wrong.

First the Articles of Confederation limited state sovereignity and then the Constitution defined clear boundaries for both national and state spheres of authority.

Thanks for your reply. The Articles of Confederation specifically retained the sovereignty of every state, while Constitutional boundaries were thus strictly voluntary agreements between sovereign nations.
 
Thanks for your reply. The Articles of Confederation specifically retained the sovereignty of every state, while Constitutional boundaries were thus strictly voluntary agreements between sovereign nations.

Nope. The Constitution denied the total sovereignity of the states, as anyone would realize if the read the Constitution and saw that it prohibits states from coining money and entering into treaties with foreign governments, two essential acts of a sovereign state.

The states voluntarily surrendered aspects of their soveriegnity for the advantages of being part of a greater whole, and that's the end of that. Secession wasn't an option after ratification.
 
Nope. The Constitution denied the total sovereignity of the states, as anyone would realize if the read the Constitution and saw that it prohibits states from coining money and entering into treaties with foreign governments, two essential acts of a sovereign state.

The states voluntarily surrendered aspects of their soveriegnity for the advantages of being part of a greater whole, and that's the end of that. Secession wasn't an option after ratification.

this implies the foolish notion that once someone enters into contract, they can't remove themselves from said contract. It also means that we can bind future generations to contracts, which is also ridiculous.
 
I say we let Alaska secede, then when all the rw nuts move up there,
we bomb them and steal their oil.


:cool:
 
this implies the foolish notion that once someone enters into contract, they can't remove themselves from said contract. It also means that we can bind future generations to contracts, which is also ridiculous.

Even more than that. Contract-law can bind parties against their will, they are completely subject to their own discretion under international law.

Contract law enjoins two parties to an agreement under the law as adjudicated by the sovereign; meanwhile international law, in this instance, pertains to federal republics among sovereign nations, as defined under the Law of Nations and the Constitution: in such an arrangement, each nation retains its sovereignty, and therefore all agreements are strictly voluntary.

The main difference between a federal republic and a treaty, is that a treaty is nullified if either side breaches one of its terms. Meanwhile a federal republic remains unbroken by one side breaching one of the terms; rather, this simply abrogates the particular term for both sides.
You can read more about this here.

The particular section is as follows:

§ 10. Of states forming a federal republic.
Finally, several sovereign and independent states may unite themselves together by a perpetual confederacy, without ceasing to be, each individually, a perfect state. They will together constitute a federal republic: their joint deliberations will not impair the sovereignty of each member, though they may, in certain respects, put some restraint on the exercise of it, in virtue of voluntary engagements. A person does not cease to be free and independent, when he is obliged to fulfil engagements which he has voluntarily contracted.

This was the form of government created under the Articles of Confederation, as well as the Constitution. Each state retained its respective sovereignty, and hence is a separate nation unto itself: meanwhile their joint deliberations did not impair the sovereignty of each member, though it might, in certain respects, put some restraint on the exercise of it, in virtue of voluntary engagements only.
As such, no state had any right to use military force against any other state to coerce compliance with the law or deliberations.

The Republican Party abrogated this international arrangement in 1833 through misinformation, claiming that the relationship was not international, but strictly national in the sense that the states formed one single nation among themselves via the Declaration of Independence.

While official experts have corrected this notion, they continue to claim that the Constitution formed such a nation out of the states; however this is entirely false, as even a cursory examination of the founding history reveals.
The Philadelphia convention was delegated no authority whatsoever either to relinquish any state's sovereignty, or consolidate the states into a single sovereignty. Rather, the extent of their delegated authority was solely to revise the Articles of Confederation-- and therefore the Constitution necessarily retained state sovereignty by implication, if not expressedly.

For the Articles of Confederation retained state sovereignty expressedly due to the international dispute of such which existed by Great Britain at the time of their writing and inception (1778-1781), and therefore such express retention was required in order to avoid further dispute among the states themselves; however this dispute by Great Britain ended in 1783 by the Paris Peace Treaty of that same year, wherein Great Britain and France both recognized the sovereignty, freedom and independence of each state as an individual separate and sovereign nation unto itself-- each having the power to declare wars, make treaties, and do all the other things which sovereign nations may do by right. This international recognition by other globally-recognized sovereign nations, made each state a sovereign nation under international law.

After this, it was no longer necessary to expressly reserve each state's national sovereignty under the Constitution; the main purpose of the Constitution was to delegate the federal government additional powers -- never to surrender any state's national sovereignty.
Therefore, the people of any state could still vote to overrule federal laws, or withdraw from the union entirely, or anything else that a nation can do.

The claim that the states formed a single sovereign union, is utterly false-- in fact Federalist 39 expressly assures the people of the states, that the Constitution forms "so many independent states, not a single nation," as a specific condition of their ratifying the Constitution in the first place.
Therefore the act of betraying this trust, is nothing less than barbarous treachery and ruthless betrayal through bad faith by the Republican Party, breaching both ethics and morality.
 
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I'm afraid you're confusing contract-law with international law.

You are confusing me with someone that is an expert in law.
My defense is a far more crude in form as I merely argue that
1) individuals have rights, not governments
2) we can’t contractually bind future generations
3) Self determination is the cornerstone of our foundation.
 
I say we let Alaska secede, then when all the rw nuts move up there,
we bomb them and steal their oil. :cool:

what is rw?

Right-wing; however I can't think of anything more of a "right-wing nut" sentiment, than to propose bombing nations to steal their oil-- like we are right now, with OPEC nations.
While the US obviously isn't doing this directly, we're doing it indirectly by intervening in their politics, supporting dictators who promise friendly terms for oil-purchases in order to maintain the supply of oil, and hence keep the price low. Such dictators included the Shah of Iran, the King of Saudi Arabia, and Saddam Hussein; this resulted in the taking of American hostages and other acts of global terrorism against the US by Khomeni, Bin Laden, Hussein, Al Queda and others in retaliation for such intervention.
If the US was truly neutral, it would simply take a "hands off" policy to domestic policy of other nations, and allow world prices and petrol to regulate themselves. However the US oil-lobby, as well as the US demand for cheap gasoline, has an inordinate inlfluence over US foreign policy in OPEC-regions, which has deleterious effects on international relations with the people of these nations, both politically and miltarily.
 
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You are confusing me with someone that is an expert in law.
My defense is a far more crude in form as I merely argue that

1) individuals have rights, not governments

However national sovereignty transcends individual liberty, otherwise nations and national boundaries cannot exist. Governments simply represent the will of the nation's ruling sovereign-- which in the United States was originally the majority of the people of each state respectively; however now, the sovereign is technically the officials of the federal government.

The "American People," which these officials claim to be the ruling sovereign(s), in reality have no legal power other than simply choosing these officials for their respective state(s); but the actual People have no sovereign authority whatosever (i.e. they cannot vote to overrule the federal government). Therefore it's a misnomer to state that "The American People" somehow "own" the country-- they have no such power. Even voting itself is a privilege, not a right.
Originally, the popular majority of any state could vote to overrule the federal government; that is how the Constitution was to be upheld against the federal government against breaches. However since the Republican Party usurped the sovereignty of each state in 1861, ordering deadly force against anyone who resisted it, then the federal government has been the sole and final judge of its own powers, construing and interpreting the Constitution as it pleases.

2) we can’t contractually bind future generations
Future generations are subject to the same laws and policies as any other newcomers; at most they are free to emigrate, or work to change the laws. There is no national right of heredity other than possible citizenship-- which is a soveriegn privilege, since again there is no such thing as a sovereign individual right.
However liberation of the national sovereignty of the individual states, would likewise restore sovereignty to the popular majority of each state, away from the federal officials who forcibly and illegally usurped it in 1861-5.

3) Self determination is the cornerstone of our foundation.
And thus there were originally 13-- and now 50-- sovereign states, each free to determine their own laws and polices according to the will of their respective people, rather than any reigning elite sovereigns.

However the Republican party changed that-- by killing over 300,000 people who resisted it, and censorship including closing down over 300 presses, and imprisonment and torture of over 20,000 journalists and others who protested or otherwise failed to support this.

Strangely, this receives nothing but praise and support under current perverse dogma by those who claim to support "freedom," but who scoff at proper channels for influencing a nation's unpopular domestic policy, instead instead claiming the right to wage Total War against any nation by any means necessary-- and thus revealing their philosophy of ruthless utter pragmatism, principally identical to other ruthless regimes of Fascism, Communism and Jihad where by the ends are said to justify any means necessary.
 
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However the Republican party changed that-- by killing over 300,000 people who resisted it, and censorship including closing down over 300 presses, and imprisonment and torture of over 20,000 journalists and others who protested or otherwise failed to support this.

What you really meant to say was that the South caused the deaths and injury of 300,000 Americans in their failed attempt at illegal secession and the GOP successfully preserved the nation in the face of Southern treason and rebellion.

You should read the Constitution sometime. It expects the president to quell rebellion and habeas corpus may be suspended in times of emergency and rebellion.

"Torture"?

Gimme a break, your modern era brainwashing is overflowing, okay?
 
Future generations are subject to the same laws and policies as any other newcomers; at most they are free to emigrate, or work to change the laws.

That is my point. If someone argues that succession is against the law, you are taking away future generations ability to change that law. Government simply can't bind future generations in such a manner. All laws can change.
 
What you really meant to say was that the South caused the deaths and injury of 300,000 Americans in their failed attempt at illegal secession and the GOP successfully preserved the nation in the face of Southern treason and rebellion.
You should read the Constitution sometime. It expects the president to quell rebellion and habeas corpus may be suspended in times of emergency and rebellion.

"Torture"?

Gimme a break, your modern era brainwashing is overflowing, okay?

Thanks again for your reply.

1. The Confederate death-rate was c. 300,000, while other casualties were much higher.
2. secession cannot be illegal, because the states were sovereign nations. Each of the original 13 states had already exercised its sovereign power, by unilaterally seceding from the Confederation of 1781, in order to originally ratify the Constitution in 1787-1789.
3. The Union is not, and never was, a sovereign nation.
4. The Constitution authorizes Congress, not the President, to call forth only the militia to repel invasions and suppress insurrections-- not the military. However the secessions were neither invasion nor insurrection-- nor revolution or rebellion; they were simply changed in foreign policy by sovereign nations, just as if a European nation wished to dissolve a treaty with the American states.
5. The Constitution permits only Congress to suspend habeas corpus-- not the president.
6. The matter of habeas corpus pertains only within the nation in question, not a foreign sovereign.
7. The 1866 Supreme Court ruled the Republican suspensions of habeas corpus unconstitutional-- along with any suspensions when civil courts were functional-- which they always were in the regions in question.
8. The Paris Peace Treaty of 1783 globally recognized the independent sovereignty of each individual state.
9. The states never directly or indirectly surrendered their respective national sovereignty, but simply delegated certain powers to the federal government; each implicitly retained its independent sovereignty, by its respective sovereign(s) failing to expressly relinquish it.
10. The Lincoln Administration indeed administered torture to dissenters imprisoned without trial, in order to force them to recant their dissent-- or voice the required endorsement of the Republican party. These included a water-toture involving placing a hose down the dissenter's throat and turning on the water until they either confessed, or their lungs and/or intestines exploded. Historical fact.
11. The Republicans abridged freedom of the press and free speech, in order to effect their illegal invasion and conquests of sovereign nations via totalitarian suppression of the truth and other forms of censoring the public from being informed of the truth regarding the national sovereignty of the individual states.
12. Lincoln premeditatedly abstained from his Constitutional duty to call Congress into emergency-session following South Carolina's secession on Dec. 20, 1860, so as to time his assumption of office to coincide with the Congressional recess on March 4, 1861 so that he could claim congressional absence to justify his usurpation of their power to suspend habeas corpus, declaring rebellion and calling forth of the militia, as well as his ignoring posse comitatus to call forth the military against the states.
This indicates that Lincoln wanted a war as a "final solution" to the "Southern Problem," just like Hitler wanted against the "Jewish Problem--" i.e. both sought to exterminate the respective faction in question.
 
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I see Godwin's Law has been enacted. :roll:
 
Yes succession is completely constitutional, the states decided to join the union they are free to leave at anytime. (or at least should be...)

I am looking forward to the future, the federal government is FAR to overreaching and the USSC is a worthless P.O.S. that stopped holding up the constitution years ago. Just about every decision they make if it is a federal law vs. the constitution they will side with federal law and come up with some extremely liberal interpretation of an irrelevant amendment of why their decision does side with the constitution. And no, it is not just the liberal judges, they are all guilty of this.
 
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I see Godwin's Law has been enacted. :roll:

That only applies to gratitous comparisons.

How was my remark gratuitous? In 1933-1945, the German government under Adolph Hitler and the Nazi Party, claimed that the law ganted them sovereign national authority over various European states-- and ordered the deaths of those who resisted him, operating through military force and totalitarian censorship; the deaths-totals numbered in the millions.
Similarly, in 1861-1865, the United States government under Abraham Lincoln of the Republican Party, likewise claimed that the law granted them national authority over various states of North America—and accordingly, they likewise ordered the deaths of those who resisted him, operating through military force and totalitarian censorship. The death-totals numbered in the hundreds of thousands.
 
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That only applies to gratitous comparisons.

How was my remark gratuitous? In 1933-1945, the German government under Adolph Hitler and the Nazi Party, claimed that the law ganted them sovereign national authority over various European states-- and ordered the deaths of those who resisted him, operating through military force and totalitarian censorship; the deaths-totals numbered in the millions.
Similarly, in 1861-1865, the United States government under Abraham Lincoln of the Republican Party, likewise claimed that the law granted them national authority over various states of North America—and accordingly, they likewise ordered the deaths of those who resisted him, operating through military force and totalitarian censorship. The death-totals numbered in the hundreds of thousands.

I agree. The issue is that some people don't like to see obvious dots connected in their beliefs of a strong central state with that of Nazi Germany.
 
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