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Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 20 43.5%

  • No.

    Votes: 26 56.5%
  • Total voters
    46
It seems to be common knowledge, given that thabigred and EgoffTib are quite consumed with justifying it.
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That isn't anywhere close to enough proof to kill someone. Post some solid evidence.
 
celticlord said:
Sounds like these "innocent" villagers are happy to live off pirate booty. So much for innocence.
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People should be dealt with on a case by case bases, not a "kill them all" mentality.

You do understand open aggression like what you are speaking of is not how we do business or will do business, we do not openly bomb civilians even how much you feel they are conspirators.

It's called code of ethics, you don't break your own ethics to enforce people who do not have ethics.

If that were the case, there would be no reason to follow any laws, the US might as well wage war with our economic competitors to stay on top. If bombing civilians is fine to you, than I see no problem with you endorsing the idea of waging war with Europe.

Laws are thoughts, Laws are ideas, Laws are myths, but there references are something that transcends all thinking. When America forgets to follow the own laws it has put into place, we stop being a nation of laws but a nation of men. Liberty will always fall in a nation of men, who will always value safety and security over freedom.

Peace and security at a cost to many lives, is that really what you wish?
 
I've been reading the posts and thinking on this. The conclusions I've come to may seem atypical for me; I have some points that might seem contradictory at first glance:

1. Piracy is wrong, period, and it needs to be stopped.. It is theft by threat of deadly force. Attempts to justify it are excuses for immoral behavior. It is not merely retaliation for unlawful fishing, since there is no indication that Somali pirates confine their piracy to ships of nations that are guilty of illegal fishing/dumping/etc. Greed appears to be the chief motivating factor.
--1a: those attempting to commit theft by threat of deadly force are morally subject to being killed in the act, imprisoned if caught after the fact, or killed after-the-fact if catching them is unworkable. The reasoning is that theft by threat of deadly force not infrequently ends in death for innocent victims. If I am not mistaken the Somali pirates do occasionally kill someone.


2. Desperation, starvation and extreme poverty DO tend to lower almost anyone's moral standards a bit. There was a time in my younger days when I felt the bite of desperation and didn't have the money to buy food. I hunted anything edible, rabbits, squirrels, whatever. I swallowed my pride and went door to door asking if people had any work that needed doing they'd pay a little something for, so I could buy my wife her meds and maybe get a loaf of bread and some vegetables to go with whatever I shot that day (if anything). I didn't resort to immoral behavior like theft but I felt the temptation... and most Somali's live in poverty and desperation far and away worse than what I experienced. Furthermore I assumed I would find work eventually and my desperation would end (it did, of course)...for the average Somali there is no end to their desperate poverty but death.
--- Similarly, I know honest people who live in the 'hood, next door to a known drug dealer. They don't like it, they don't like the types that come and go next door...but they have no means to move and they're too scared of retaliation against their self/family/children to turn informant in hopes the cops will intervene.
This gives me a certain sympathy with the plight of the coastal villagers. Poorly armed (if at all) compared to the pirates, they surely fear to cross them, and if trading with the pirates means the difference between their kids starving or not, I can see that. A parent whose child is starving has a hard time seeing any higher moral good than feeding their child whatever it takes.

Now there's the question of whether shelling coastal villages known to harbor pirates would actually result in a decrease in piracy. The answer to that is "I am not sure." It might.... or the pirates might take to hiding their boats in more secluded places away from villages, who knows.

If we bomb those villages, there is no question we will inflict "collateral damage" on people who are effectively innocent of any real crime... other than being too powerless to do anything about the pirates among them, and possibly too desperate to feed their kids to refuse to trade with them. If I had more confidence that bombing those villages would actually end Somali piracy, I might think it was worth considering... but as it is, I don't think that large-scale death of fishermen, women and children can be justified when the outcome is uncertain, and the "complicity" of the villagers debateable. Notice I didn't say the villagers were innocent, just that their degree of willing complicity was questionable. The very very poor often find their options and ability to affect their community to be highly limited.

In conclusion, I think we should take every reasonable measure to stop piracy at sea, including a multi-pronged approach of arming merchants, hiding SEAL/etc teams on some ships, using warships to patrol and convoy methods, Q-ships, and blowing pirates out of the water when we identify them.

However, under the current circumstances and given what info I have available at this time, I just can't justify shelling those coastal villages.


G.
 
EgoffTib said:
Common knowledge that all of the Somalis are feeding off of the pirates? Since when?
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Should re-read your own posts. That has been the thrust of your entire "but they're poor" argument.

If they aren't, why are you justifying that they do?
 
celticlord said:
Should re-read your own posts. That has been the thrust of your entire "but they're poor" argument.

If they aren't, why are you justifying that they do?
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Really? I just re-read my posts. I cannot find any post where I have claimed that all Somalis are poor. Care to enlighten me?
 
Laila said:
So punish civilians for what pirates are doing?

The locals have little power and between the Islamists and the pirates. I know which side i'd choose and it wouldn't be the Islamists ...

Anarchy in the land, piracy in the sea. The only thing that can prevent Pirates is a strong Government, not bombs.

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Seeing alot of hijackings are occuring near Somaliland/Puntland but the bases are in Somalia; not many could distinguish the key differences and knowing them. It would probably just carpet bomb us so thanks but no thanks.
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Shall we call a WAAAAAAAAAMMMBULLLANCE for the pirates and those who provide them safe harbor?

If the pirates cannot launch boats from those ports, THEY CANNOT COMMIT ACTS OF PIRACY.

Stop making excuses for your criminal friends. They took an are godless thieves who can surrender and be punished in a civilized manner OR THEY CAN ALL BE DESTROYED.

Accept it.
 
Ah, lovely Somalia. Monument to the full potential of small government. It's such an ugly thing because we can't have our ships being hijacked and our sailors held hostage, and we have the right (and yes an obligation) to defend ourselves.
At the same time, one should not underestimate the importance in situational factors in fueling piracy. These pirates are basically children with no other prospects for survival let alone gainful employment, and no one here can say for certain that finding themselves raised in conditions of perpetual poverty, starvation and violence they would not do the same. This whole ugliness is a monument to the consequences of allowing inhuman poverty to exist in our time.
 
I say once the pirates start shelling boats then its OK to shell them. Until then, use spies and shadow ops.



"Sooo Robin Hood... did you take any money from those snooty nobles today?"

*whistling sound from above

KABOOOOM.
 
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Laila said:
Or the fact Egyptians along with other countries have been enterting our waters and stealing out fishes.
The correct response for me is to steal Egyptian and European ships in retaliation no?

Just yesterday a Egyptian boat was found fishing illegally in Somali waters. What do you think the correct punishment is?
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mmm, stealing your fish > stealing our boats ?
I think fish can reproduct, unlike boats ;)
 
Ahmed Shaheen said:
mmm, stealing your fish > stealing our boats ?
I think fish can reproduct, unlike boats ;)
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I understand Egypt has problems over the concept of soverignty but keep it down when individual Somalis take it into their own hands or control your citizens.

Just yesterday a Egyptian boat was found fishing illegally in Somali waters. What do you think the correct punishment is?
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faminedynasty said:
Ah, lovely Somalia. Monument to the full potential of small government. It's such an ugly thing because we can't have our ships being hijacked and our sailors held hostage, and we have the right (and yes an obligation) to defend ourselves.
At the same time, one should not underestimate the importance in situational factors in fueling piracy. These pirates are basically children with no other prospects for survival let alone gainful employment, and no one here can say for certain that finding themselves raised in conditions of perpetual poverty, starvation and violence they would not do the same. This whole ugliness is a monument to the consequences of allowing inhuman poverty to exist in our time.
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Didn't the US try to help with the Somali poverty problem back in the 90s? I think, for their trouble, they had soldiers drug through the street while those poor folks cheered.

People usually get the governent and conditions they deserve. If they are willing to consort with pirates and profit from the deeds of pirates, they should be treated as pirates.

That said, there is no need to indiscriminately shell the place. They should simply use some smart weapons to flatten anything bigger than a hut. The poor people do not own the large houses that are protected by fences and guards.

.
 
rathi said:
That isn't anywhere close to enough proof to kill someone. Post some solid evidence.
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Says you.

You know nothing about warfare or national defense.

Kindly save your hippyish suggestions for Berkley town hall meetings.

Thanks.
 
Laila said:
I understand Egypt has problems over the concept of soverignty but keep it down when individual Somalis take it into their own hands or control your citizens.
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You OF ALL PEOPLE are NEVER ENTITLED to tell somebody else to control THEIR citizens.

Your homeland is a sewer of terrorists, pirates, criminals, warlords, and islamic corruption.

You have ZERO business telling Ahmed to control HIS citizens.
 
rathi said:
You have yet to establish that all of the villagers are "feeding of the pirates". Certainly some do, but provide some proof that all of them support the pirates.
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Cease your latent support for the pirates and those who live off money stolen or extorted from others.
 
rathi said:
Its not a straw man. The tactic of killing civilians as a reprisal is what I am arguing against, and that is exactly what you are proposing. Stopping pirates may be a just cause, but using unnecessary and evil methods is not acceptable. Furthermore, I would challenge the effectiveness of such methods. Most likely, you would turn Somali into a hotbed for terrorist recruitment. You might stop piracy only to create a far worse problem.
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Nobody wants to kill civilians; however, if those civilians are harboring pirates, they are guilty of aiding and abedding the pirates.

Accept it and move on.

rathi said:
You still fail to understand. Poverty CAUSES piracy, it does not justify it. A desire for revenge CAUSES terrorism, it does not justify it. Pirates taking Americans hostage CAUSES you to call for mass murder, it does not justify it.
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And you are still MAKING EXCUSES for pirates and those who harbor them.

rathi said:
Living in the same town as a criminal makes you an accomplice? That an false definition of accomplice. Should the British have obliterated Dublin because of the IRA attacks?
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The life of civilian life is tragic; however, when those "civilians" are living off of the spolis of theft and murder THEY MUST BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

They want a free pass -- they can exhile the pirates. Otherwise they can accept the consequences of living off of the proceeds of theft and murder.
 
If you shell a town you instantly give them an army the next day. Oh ya. We want more armies to fight against of people that hate us with every bit of their core. Can't get that going till you kill some relatives though can ya.

Has anyone seen any footage of the pirate attack where the 3 snipers took out the 3 gunmen? And if so has anyone seen any footage where the boat is not being towed? If so please share.
 
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Vader said:
Shall we call a WAAAAAAAAAMMMBULLLANCE for the pirates and those who provide them safe harbor?

If the pirates cannot launch boats from those ports, THEY CANNOT COMMIT ACTS OF PIRACY.
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Then maybe we should kill all Somalians. If some Somalians become pirates, we could kill them all, thus ridding ourselves of the pirate threat! Brilliant logic! :roll:
 
Vader said:
Nobody wants to kill civilians; however, if those civilians are harboring pirates, they are guilty of aiding and abedding the pirates.

Accept it and move on.



And you are still MAKING EXCUSES for pirates and those who harbor them.



The life of civilian life is tragic; however, when those "civilians" are living off of the spolis of theft and murder THEY MUST BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

They want a free pass -- they can exhile the pirates. Otherwise they can accept the consequences of living off of the proceeds of theft and murder.
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I've never heard such an asinine appeal from ethnocentrism in my life. You seem to think that Somali citizens are living a life similar to people from downtown Harlem or something, like they have a 'choice'.

These civilians are either going to 'harbor' these pirates or die. These communities have no options.
 
talloulou said:
I couldn't support just random shelling of the coastal villages.
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1. It's not "random" shelling if we are attacking legitimate military targets.

2. Civilian casualties are an acceptable consequence of attacking legitimate military targets.
 
Ethereal said:
1. It's not "random" shelling if we are attacking legitimate military targets.

2. Civilian casualties are an acceptable consequence of attacking legitimate military targets.
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Straight from the American and Israeli warhawk strategy book.
 
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