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Should schools include gay sex as part of sex education curriculum?

Should gay sex be added to the sex education curriculum?


  • Total voters
    38
No, I do not.

I mean that characterizing any sex as either "gay sex" or "straight sex" is discriminatory. The sexual orientation aspect is simply not relevant.

Good point. Ill be honest ive really changed my view on the subject. Ive been seeing a lot of really good arguments, especially celticlords. Sexual orientation isnt relevant, and characterization of gay/straight sex really is not neccessary within the school. Simply put, its not like gay sex requires differerent health measures. Therefore, how to have safe "sex" (as a general term) being taught in schools is more than sufficient.

A very minor insignificant part of the population is sexually attracted to animals,prepubescent children,robots, their relatives and are into all kinds of other sexual fetishes. Should we teach about beastiaility/Zoophilia ,pedophilia,technosexuality, genetic sexuality/incest and a whole bunch of other sexual attractions and desires?

1/10 people are gay. Hardly minor or "insignificant", whatever thats supposed to mean.
 
1/10 people are gay. Hardly minor or "insignificant", whatever thats supposed to mean.

Somehow I doubt that 10% of people are "gay;" at least in America, anyway.
 
Somehow I doubt that 10% of people are "gay;" at least in America, anyway.

Statistically, 3%-7% of the world population is gay. This has been pretty consistent for a long time.
 
A very minor insignificant part of the population is sexually attracted to animals,prepubescent children,robots, their relatives and are into all kinds of other sexual fetishes. Should we teach about beastiaility/Zoophilia ,pedophilia,technosexuality, genetic sexuality/incest and a whole bunch of other sexual attractions and desires?

This is a very good question that I've often seen raised in these discussions. And in answering, let me turn the question around just a bit. What would we think if a 17 or 18-y/o student graduated from the public school and did not know the meaning of the word fetish, or the word bestiality, or pedophilia, or could not explain the difference between a transexual and a bisexual individual? Would we find that a good thing or would we think their education had suffered somewhere along the way? Should a student understand the meaning of sexual abuse and/or rape? Should a student entering college or university have an understanding about why we have online 'sex offender registries?' Or would it be better for young adults to have no knowledge about these things?

Human sexuality in all its forms plays an important and complex role in society. And ignorance of things sexual, whether we find them appealing or revolting, would reflect, in my mind, a serious lack of understanding of human sociology. These issues are sensitive, I understand. But to put them all in a box and mark them 'off-limits' for the public classroom seems unreasonable. It seems that the real question is at what age are these issues appropriate to teach, and what classroom context is most appropriate for their discussion.

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My opinion is shifting towards the blief that it should be adressed as a fact of life. There is no point in sweeping it under the rug. Some people in that class will probably end up having gay sex. I think compassion, or at least tolerance should be encouraged as general themes. I also think the dangers (statistical tendancy towards std's) of gay sex should be delt with bluntly. I dont see what there is to fear.
 
This is a very good question that I've often seen raised in these discussions. And in answering, let me turn the question around just a bit. What would we think if a 17 or 18-y/o student graduated from the public school and did not know the meaning of the word fetish, or the word bestiality, or pedophilia, or could not explain the difference between a transexual and a bisexual individual? Would we find that a good thing or would we think their education had suffered somewhere along the way? Should a student understand the meaning of sexual abuse and/or rape? Should a student entering college or university have an understanding about why we have online 'sex offender registries?' Or would it be better for young adults to have no knowledge about these things?
While as a general rule, more knowledge is better than less, your question sidesteps the central question of whether such knowledge is appropriate for a school--in particular a public, taxpayer-supported school--to teach (note: the one exception in the topics you listed is the meaning of sexual abuse and/or rape; as I have mentioned earlier in this thread that should be a part of sex education).

Human sexuality in all its forms plays an important and complex role in society. And ignorance of things sexual, whether we find them appealing or revolting, would reflect, in my mind, a serious lack of understanding of human sociology. These issues are sensitive, I understand. But to put them all in a box and mark them 'off-limits' for the public classroom seems unreasonable. It seems that the real question is at what age are these issues appropriate to teach, and what classroom context is most appropriate for their discussion.

Human sexuality is important and it is complex, but I submit it is insufficiently understood for teaching, especially to children. What makes a person "gay"? Are sex offender registries a proper societal response to sexual crime? Are fetishes and paraphilias "ok", or are they mental disorders (keep in mind that a variety of sexual urges and desires are still listed the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)? When is it "ok" for a person to begin engaging in sexual activity (keep in mind the age of consent varies widely from as low as 14 in some states up to the age of majority in others)?

Moreover, regardless of our personal beliefs and attitudes on sexuality, many of these topics have religious ramifications for a great many people. The Bible and the Koran are both quite clear on the topic of homosexuality--it's wrong, don't do it. If a parent, because of their particular moral code, finds certain sexual practices to be perverse and repugnant, and desires the lesson their child receives to reflect that moral perspective, a public school in particular has no right to teach contrary to the parent's perspective.

Regardless of how enlightening knowledge of human sexuality may be, I am unable to see how a school can present a curriculum of human sexuality that does not intrude into those moral and ethical domains which of right and necessity fall to parents to teach. The moment a topic acquires a moral dimension, it is no longer appropriate for a public school system to teach that topic.
 
Statistically, 3%-7% of the world population is gay. This has been pretty consistent for a long time.

3% is a little closer to my personal experience although intuitively I would think it's less than that. I've known hundreds of people and I can only think of three that I've personally known that are openly gay. Do you have a source for these statistics?
 
3% is a little closer to my personal experience although intuitively I would think it's less than that. I've known hundreds of people and I can only think of three that I've personally known that are openly gay. Do you have a source for these statistics?

Dont forget the ones we dont know about. Its very likely you have met many homosexual people that you couldnt pick up on or are just "in the closet", if you understand what i mean.
 
While as a general rule, more knowledge is better than less, your question sidesteps the central question of whether such knowledge is appropriate for a school--in particular a public, taxpayer-supported school--to teach (note: the one exception in the topics you listed is the meaning of sexual abuse and/or rape; as I have mentioned earlier in this thread that should be a part of sex education).

Well you've sidestepped the answer it seems. Does it seem reasonable to you that a public school graduate should be ignorant of the meanings of the words fetish, bestiality or pedophilia?

Human sexuality is important and it is complex, but I submit it is insufficiently understood for teaching, especially to children. What makes a person "gay"? Are sex offender registries a proper societal response to sexual crime? Are fetishes and paraphilias "ok", or are they mental disorders (keep in mind that a variety of sexual urges and desires are still listed the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)? When is it "ok" for a person to begin engaging in sexual activity (keep in mind the age of consent varies widely from as low as 14 in some states up to the age of majority in others)?

Moreover, regardless of our personal beliefs and attitudes on sexuality, many of these topics have religious ramifications for a great many people. The Bible and the Koran are both quite clear on the topic of homosexuality--it's wrong, don't do it. If a parent, because of their particular moral code, finds certain sexual practices to be perverse and repugnant, and desires the lesson their child receives to reflect that moral perspective, a public school in particular has no right to teach contrary to the parent's perspective.

Regardless of how enlightening knowledge of human sexuality may be, I am unable to see how a school can present a curriculum of human sexuality that does not intrude into those moral and ethical domains which of right and necessity fall to parents to teach. The moment a topic acquires a moral dimension, it is no longer appropriate for a public school system to teach that topic.

Those are all fine questions. But I'll await first your response to my question above.

Edit to add: So as not to waste time, I'll pose my next question now. Would it seem reasonable to you for a public school graduate to be ignorant of the following words?

Adultery
Idolatry
Sloth
Perversion
Heresy
Damnation
Sin
Venial
Torture
Sabbath
Pride
Inquisition
Gluttony
Fornication

???

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Dont forget the ones we dont know about. Its very likely you have met many homosexual people that you couldnt pick up on or are just "in the closet", if you understand what i mean.

I wont deny the possibility but how could the number of these people ever be measured for statistical analysis in any meaningful way?

I just remembered another person, a lesbian. She was married for something like 40 years and had kids before announcing that she was a lesbian. So that makes 4.

I've known a couple "bi-sexuals" (equal opportunity sluts :)) but these people were flaky, with a history of abuse, so I don't really know what's up with them.
 
Dont forget the ones we dont know about. Its very likely you have met many homosexual people that you couldnt pick up on or are just "in the closet", if you understand what i mean.

I wont deny the possibility but how could the number of these people ever be measured for statistical analysis in any meaningful way?

I just remembered another person, a lesbian. She was married for something like 40 years and had kids before announcing that she was a lesbian. So that makes 4.

I've known a couple "bi-sexuals" (equal opportunity sluts :)) but these people were flaky, with a history of abuse, so I don't really know what's up with them. One day they'd be gay, the next they'd be straight then bi then straight again... whatever.
 
I've known a couple "bi-sexuals" (equal opportunity sluts :)) but these people were flaky, with a history of abuse, so I don't really know what's up with them. One day they'd be gay, the next they'd be straight then bi then straight again... whatever.

What do you mean "one day they will be straight and then bi"? Thats the whole point of being bisexual, your a bit of gay and straight.
 
What do you mean "one day they will be straight and then bi"? Thats the whole point of being bisexual, your a bit of gay and straight.

They go back and forth. It might not make sense to you and it doesn't make sense to me but it makes sense to them so whatever.
 
Being bi means you have the capacity for both or either on any given day. You are not "gay" one day and "straight" the next, you are always bi.

I personally find the labelling system to be wholy inadequate for describing these kinds of things.
 
The slippery slope falacy is not a good one here. Just because an extreme example COULD happen or is something people WANT to happen doesn't mean it automatically WILL happen nor does it mean that something else shouldn't happen just because it has a slight chance of leading to it.
I disagree, they are not teaching heterosexual behavior, but reproduction. Getting into heterosexual vs homosexual is political.
 
I find it odd you need to ask. My opposition has been clear and categorical throughout.

I am against it being taught, because, from a health and safety standpoint, it is not relevant. It matters not whether the actors are heterosexual nor homosexual, and injecting the sexuality dimension puts the teacher in the position of saying that something is "ok" or "not ok" from a moral rather than a health/safety perspective. Calling sex "gay sex" or "straight sex" injects a level of moralization that is incompatible with the proper role of the public school system. Schools should not be teaching morals either one way or the other. Teaching "gay" anything is necessarily incorporating a moral content into the curriculum and is wrong; teaching "straight" anything is necessarily incorporating a moral content into the curriculum and is wrong. Schools should refrain from moral content of any kind in any subject.

I think they can teach the subject without saying its "ok" or "not ok." You're assuming what might be true for some teachers will be true for every teacher.

For analogy's sake: Let's say a teacher is pro-stem cell research. That teacher can teach about stem cell research, in fact it IS taught about, without saying that it is morally right or wrong. Education about homosexuality is no different, unless the teacher chooses to make it so based on their opinions.


If you were to read, you would have seen my response to Orius on this:

Sorry.


A physics teacher would not entertain questions on English, a history teacher would not entertain questions on biology, why should a sex education teacher entertain questions on relationships and sexuality (and "gay" anything falls into that topic, which is separate and apart from sex education)?

From now on, I will put quotations around the term "gay sex" since it is clear that you refuse to refer to it in the common manner, for whatever reason.

You can call it whatever you want, but in the end, there will be questions about what is commonly referred to as "gay sex."

What you are saying is not like a history professor refusing to teach about biology, as you said, what you are saying is like a history professor refusing to teach about the U.S. government (if the school has a history class as well as a government class).

History and government are very closely related, yet are able to be separated into individual courses. In this way, "gay sex" is a part of sex/safety/health and should be so. It is a part of it, but an important part.

Let's say I have a question about government, my school does not have a gov't class, and my parents don't know much on the subject. I would reason to ask my history professor rather than my biology professor, since what I have learned in history somewhat touches on aspects of gov't and is most related to it than any other class.

This is almost EXACTLY the case in the matter of "gay sex" :
Let's say I have a question about "gay sex," my school does not have a "gay sex" class, and my parents don't know much on the subject. I would reason to ask my sex-ed professor rather than my algebra professor, since what I have learned in sex-ed somewhat touches on aspects of "gay sex" and is most related to it than any other class.
 
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Again, thanks for the unnecessary info about what constitutes as gay sex, but gay sex still fits into the health and safety categories because of AIDS and all that "fun stuff."

What EXACTLY are these specific "fun stuff" that is so different in regards to health and safety for gays than straights?

I've never seen any study that says biologicaly gays are more prone to get AIDS than straight people. Perhaps you can fill me in?

What would we think if a 17 or 18-y/o student graduated from the public school and did not know the meaning of the word fetish, or the word bestiality, or pedophilia, or could not explain the difference between a transexual and a bisexual individual?

I didn't learn about what the word "Fetish" means from school, nor "beastiality" or "pedophilia". I learned it in general from society, parents, peers, television, and the internet. I don't remember a class in school with teachers going "And some people find themselves sexually attracted to animals and thus engage in beastiality".

Pedohpila would be the closest of those I learned in school, and that wasn't so much the term as it was safety things as a kid that you later realize is because of child touchers.

In terms of bisexuality or transexual, personally I feel that is more of a biological thing. I don't have an issue explaining that there are people that find themselves attracted to the same sex, or both sexes. I don't have any issues talking about the scientific fact that some people are born transexual. I think those that just "choose" to change their sex don't need to be discussed, but again, this comes up through social upbringing I believe. The difference is you can speak about them in a general way without giving moral decisions on them as being "normal", "abnormal", etc. At best, it can be stated that they're uncommon, which is factually true and morally ambiguous.

Would we find that a good thing or would we think their education had suffered somewhere along the way?

I wouldn't find it a "good" thing, and I'd think there's something likely wrong with the kid in regards to his social and family life had he never even heard of the words or what they mean. Education, in regards to scholastic education, would be one of the last things I'd blame for it.

Should a student understand the meaning of sexual abuse and/or rape?

Sexual abuse and rape are both things that are against the law, so its outside what Celtic talks about in regards to "morals" being taught. It'd also fall into the health and safety realm of things.

I disagree, they are not teaching heterosexual behavior, but reproduction. Getting into heterosexual vs homosexual is political.

What does that have anything to do with what you responded to. You stated your opposition to talking about gay sex because they won't "stop there" and will keep pushing till homosexuality is taught as normal and completely acceptable. I stated that the slippery slope, saying that if we allow them to talk about gay sex that they'll eventually try to make them teach that homosexuality is normal and perfectly fine, is not a legitimate argument.

How do you "disagree" with that context based on them not teaching heterosexual behavior.

Or are you suggesting we teach children that the only time anyone engages in sexual activity is with the express intent to reproduce?
 
Are you trying to promote gay sex?


facepalm.jpg
 
In terms of bisexuality or transexual, personally I feel that is more of a biological thing. I don't have an issue explaining that there are people that find themselves attracted to the same sex, or both sexes. I don't have any issues talking about the scientific fact that some people are born transexual. I think those that just "choose" to change their sex don't need to be discussed, but again, this comes up through social upbringing I believe. The difference is you can speak about them in a general way without giving moral decisions on them as being "normal", "abnormal", etc. At best, it can be stated that they're uncommon, which is factually true and morally ambiguous.

I guess this is the closest we'll come to an agreement. And I suspect we're not that far apart in our thinking.

I've seen some make the case that the topic of homosexuality or other sexual issues should be completely taboo in the public school... and you don't seem to be making that case.

And I suppose the characterization of 'normal' or 'abnormal' would probably come up only if a student posed the question. I can imagine in a history or sociology class, for example, if the issue of Judaism came up, a student might pop in with 'My parents tell me that Jews are going to hell.' And I guess the proper response from the teacher would be to explain to the student that their personal religious beliefs should be left at home, since the Jewish kids in the class might take great offense to that kind of bigotry.

;)
 
Sex education in the schools should be limited in scope to the health aspects--i.e., transmission of STDs and the potential for pregnancy, when is it rape and not sex, et cetera. To the greatest extent possible, it should be value neutral. It is not the job of a school to teach morals.

Sexual acts are not homosexual acts until and unless the sexual actors are both male or both female. Anal sex is not gay sex unless both are men. Oral sex is not gay sex unless both are male or both are female. The health and safety aspects which are the proper academic objectives of sex education derive from specific sexual acts, which can be discussed and taught from a gender-neutral perspective. The cliched sayings about condom use ("put it on before you put it in," "no glove, no love", "always wear a raincoat", "don't be silly, cover that willy") are equally applicable to male-female as well as male-male sexual contact.

What does need to be a part of sex education is the range of sexual acts that can be dangerous. The great risk to today's youth is that many honestly believe that oral sex and anal sex are not "sex". Sex education should not be limited merely to safe practices for vaginal intercourse.

Homosexuality itself should not be a part of sex education in the schools, simply because the emotional content of sexual relationships and the sublime psychology of one's sexuality are not academic lessons any school can ever be equipped to teach.

This thread should have died with this post...
 
This thread should have died with this post...

Only if you believe that 'emotional content' and 'sublime psychology' of sexual relationships have no place in the public schools... which was the conclusion of that post.

Because that would require the elimination of Romeo and Juliet from HS English class, among most other classics.

;)
 
And I suppose the characterization of 'normal' or 'abnormal' would probably come up only if a student posed the question. I can imagine in a history or sociology class, for example, if the issue of Judaism came up, a student might pop in with 'My parents tell me that Jews are going to hell.' And I guess the proper response from the teacher would be to explain to the student that their personal religious beliefs should be left at home, since the Jewish kids in the class might take great offense to that kind of bigotry.

You had me till the end, when you have the teacher telling the student that his parents religious views are bigotry.

I think the more proper thing would be to say that religious beliefs are best kept outside of the classroom and that we're discussing judaism from a historical stand point, not in the context of other religions beliefs.
 
You had me till the end, when you have the teacher telling the student that his parents religious views are bigotry.

I think the more proper thing would be to say that religious beliefs are best kept outside of the classroom and that we're discussing judaism from a historical stand point, not in the context of other religions beliefs.

I should have used better punctuation in that post, sorry. It should have read as follows:

And I guess the proper response from the teacher would be to explain to the student that "their personal religious beliefs should be left at home", since the Jewish kids in the class might take great offense to that kind of bigotry.

It's my own opinion that people who believe Jews are going to Hell are bigots. I agree that's probably not an opinion most would find politically correct.

bigotry -
1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.

:2wave:
 
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