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Converting Other Debaters

Do you think your debating skills will ever change the minds of notable DP members?

  • Yes

    Votes: 9 30.0%

  • No

    Votes: 15 50.0%

  • I'm here because Facebook isn't an efficient enough time-waster

    Votes: 1 3.3%

  • Can't... stop... now... I've got him/her pinned to the wall of reason, I swear...

    Votes: 5 16.7%
  • Total voters
    30
Edify_Always_In_All_Ways

Edify_Always_In_All_Ways

Just Crazy Enough to Work
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 26, 2006
Messages
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Location
Wilmington, DE
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
This is a question for everyone here, nonpartisan and partisan alike.

In these endless hours of debate we engage in, the thousands of posts we write, all our reasoning, all our anger and anguish, do you believe we will ever convince the "other side" of anything?

Liberals: do you think you will get JamesRage to start waving rainbow flags? Goobieman to give up his guns? Gill to accept global warming? Felicity to hand women back their wombs? CelticLord to cheer President Obama on with the stimulus plan?

Conservatives: Will you ever get SeargantStinger to admire Bush or even give him a half-decent smiley? Will DisneyDude ever let go of the flaws of the old Administration? Will NewCoupForYou ever be persuaded to try women for a change? Will Kandahar shout down the Kyoto Protocol? Will Rivvrat shed a tear for discarded fetuses?

I'm not sure how many people have changed their minds after reading a post on these boards, but unless I count myself I'm pretty sure I could use one hand, minus the pinky, ring, middle and forefingers. Truly, I often wonder what the point is.
 
Only if their drunk. :mrgreen:
 
In around 2% of the debates I've seen around here, extreme positions were mellowed significantly, but not completely reversed. This was done only through patient and thorough debate that was grounded in respect for the other member. In 100% of the cases where sarcasm and ridicule were used, the opposing side hunkered down into a more extremist position than ever before.

There was, however, one thread where Captain Courtesy debated a pedophile who carried out some pretty stunning mental acrobatics, claiming that his predilection was perfectly normal. By the end of the thread, the pedophile acknowledged his sickness and claimed that he would seek help.

That was the first and last complete reversal I've seen on an online debate forum.

I think that most of the people who use hostility and ridicule are perfectly aware that they're not changing any minds, and are just using the anonymity of the internet to vent. Most of them are probably pretty decent people in "real life."
 
I typically don't expect to change anyone's mind here espeically since I have thrown down and gotten vile from both sides. I say what I think and if they dont like it, well too bad.
 
Edify_Always_In_All_Ways said:
In these endless hours of debate we engage in, the thousands of posts we write, all our reasoning, all our anger and anguish, do you believe we will ever convince the "other side" of anything?
Click to expand...
Do I expect to convince one and all of the clear and patently obvious correctness of my positions? No (although it does make for a pleasant fantasy for a Sunday afternoon!;)), I don't.

I do hope to persuade others to take a closer look at things, to ask questions that begin "what if....?" and to deepen their thinking and broaden their perspective.

The questions and challenges that are put to me in these discussions are magnificently effective in framing my own readings on a wide variety of topics; these debates educate me to a degree merely reading the news of the day will never achieve. Hopefully, the challenges and questions I pose to others similarly enhance their own reading and research.

I do not debate to convert; I debate to learn, and, on rare occasion, to teach.
 
I think for the vast majority of these debates, the purpose is not so much to convert or sway your opponent to your way of thinking. to some degree it is an exercise in futility of you are going to get someone ideologically opposed to you to change their mind. Minor concessions here and there, perhaps, but a wholesale conversion, no, save for a few rare circumstances, there are open minded objective people here who can and will sway their opinion based on sound evidence, but there are a multitude as well that will never be persuaded on some issues.

I think in these diametrically opposed debates, the opposing viewpoints are not so much to "convert" your opposition, but more so for the benefit of the third parties who, may or may not have a solid position one way or the other. It is a chance to get an exposure and awareness of both sides of a topic that this third party reader or participant may not have a solid knowledge base of, or opinion on.

These discussions are not a one on one battle, although it often gets framed that way. It is more of a spectacle for an audience (participatory or not), and they are the one that often reap the benefits of these discussions.

I know I have engaged people where I realize actually changing their opinion is futile, but in the course of discussion there is a good probability that others who are not so opposed can be exposed to the issue and the opposing positions, and use this to help hone their opinions as well. At the same time, it enables us individually to sharpen our positions, increase our knowledge, and reinforce our arguments (at times this could in fact mean a shift in position, or a softening of opposition for some).

In short I think these confrontations where we know there is no chance of a conversion of our direct opponent are more for our personal benefit, and to a lesser degree for the benefit of others who will read and question the topics of the debate in their own minds, and perhaps, just perhaps it is these bystanders whose opinion gets established, swayed, influenced, developed, honed, what have you.

Plus it is fun :D
 
Last edited:
celticlord said:
I do not debate to convert; I debate to learn, and, on rare occasion, to teach.
Click to expand...
I follow the same pathway.
 
I truly do believe in the power of reason, and if my reasons are good enough a rational person will helplessly believe as I believe (and vice versa.)

However there are some that are simply dyed in the wool about their positions, or hold onto them for reasons other than reason.

For example, I'll never get aps to smoke a cigarette. I myself know what I'm closed minded about, and that's freedom.
 
marduc said:
I think for the vast majority of these debates, the purpose is not so much to convert or sway your opponent ...but more so for the benefit of the third parties who, may or may not have a solid position one way or the other. ... in the course of discussion there is a good probability that others who are not so opposed can be exposed to the issue and the opposing positions, and use this to help hone their opinions as well.

Plus it is fun :D
Click to expand...

Ding ding ding WE HAVE A WINNER!

Couldn't have said it better.

G.
 
If anyone here remembers the old me, they would realize that I did change.

That was in part from actually SEEING some of the problems through my job change from military to law enforcement.

The other stuff was from many people on this forum.

More specifically Gysgt
 
Spending time on here is more for personal growth than conversion of others. My personal experience has led me to further my efforts of understanding the view from both sides of an argument, which many seem to lack or are blinded from doing in some fashion.

There are still some good debates to be had. :2wave:
 
Edify_Always_In_All_Ways said:
This is a question for everyone here, nonpartisan and partisan alike.

In these endless hours of debate we engage in, the thousands of posts we write, all our reasoning, all our anger and anguish, do you believe we will ever convince the "other side" of anything?

Liberals: do you think you will get JamesRage to start waving rainbow flags? Goobieman to give up his guns? Gill to accept global warming? Felicity to hand women back their wombs? CelticLord to cheer President Obama on with the stimulus plan?

Conservatives: Will you ever get SeargantStinger to admire Bush or even give him a half-decent smiley? Will DisneyDude ever let go of the flaws of the old Administration? Will NewCoupForYou ever be persuaded to try women for a change? Will Kandahar shout down the Kyoto Protocol? Will Rivvrat shed a tear for discarded fetuses?

I'm not sure how many people have changed their minds after reading a post on these boards, but unless I count myself I'm pretty sure I could use one hand, minus the pinky, ring, middle and forefingers. Truly, I often wonder what the point is.
Click to expand...


I do not think I will ever change anyone's mind. I have changed my mind about a few issues. Mostly it wasn't because of some poster.Although the exception was probably the view on the alleged bridge to nowhere,jallman convinced me that it wasn't pork.


JamesRage to start waving rainbow flags?
Click to expand...

Not all rainbows are gay.
 
marduc said:
I think for the vast majority of these debates, the purpose is not so much to convert or sway your opponent to your way of thinking. to some degree it is an exercise in futility of you are going to get someone ideologically opposed to you to change their mind. Minor concessions here and there, perhaps, but a wholesale conversion, no, save for a few rare circumstances, there are open minded objective people here who can and will sway their opinion based on sound evidence, but there are a multitude as well that will never be persuaded on some issues.

I think in these diametrically opposed debates, the opposing viewpoints are not so much to "convert" your opposition, but more so for the benefit of the third parties who, may or may not have a solid position one way or the other. It is a chance to get an exposure and awareness of both sides of a topic that this third party reader or participant may not have a solid knowledge base of, or opinion on.

These discussions are not a one on one battle, although it often gets framed that way. It is more of a spectacle for an audience (participatory or not), and they are the one that often reap the benefits of these discussions.

I know I have engaged people where I realize actually changing their opinion is futile, but in the course of discussion there is a good probability that others who are not so opposed can be exposed to the issue and the opposing positions, and use this to help hone their opinions as well. At the same time, it enables us individually to sharpen our positions, increase our knowledge, and reinforce our arguments (at times this could in fact mean a shift in position, or a softening of opposition for some).

In short I think these confrontations where we know there is no chance of a conversion of our direct opponent are more for our personal benefit, and to a lesser degree for the benefit of others who will read and question the topics of the debate in their own minds, and perhaps, just perhaps it is these bystanders whose opinion gets established, swayed, influenced, developed, honed, what have you.

Plus it is fun :D
Click to expand...

I have changed positions based on these debates and am presently, slowly, coming to a new position on another issue (legalized pot) as a result of reading these exchanges.
 
Engaging in intellectual debate with my girlfriend in real life has swayed her opinions on a few things that I like.. (guns, being the major victory).

Here, I don't expect to change anyone's beliefs to be honest.. but in real life.. through honest discussion, yes it's possible to sway people.
 
bhkad said:
I have changed positions based on these debates and am presently, slowly, coming to a new position on another issue (legalized pot) as a result of reading these exchanges.
Click to expand...

This is an awesome punctuation mark for my post (especially since I have been arguing for legalizing so prolifically here).

Thank you!
 
Cardinal said:
There was, however, one thread where Captain Courtesy debated a pedophile who carried out some pretty stunning mental acrobatics, claiming that his predilection was perfectly normal. By the end of the thread, the pedophile acknowledged his sickness and claimed that he would seek help.
Click to expand...
holy ****, where was that at?
 
Cardinal said:
In around 2% of the debates I've seen around here, extreme positions were mellowed significantly, but not completely reversed. This was done only through patient and thorough debate that was grounded in respect for the other member. In 100% of the cases where sarcasm and ridicule were used, the opposing side hunkered down into a more extremist position than ever before.

There was, however, one thread where Captain Courtesy debated a pedophile who carried out some pretty stunning mental acrobatics, claiming that his predilection was perfectly normal. By the end of the thread, the pedophile acknowledged his sickness and claimed that he would seek help.

That was the first and last complete reversal I've seen on an online debate forum.

I think that most of the people who use hostility and ridicule are perfectly aware that they're not changing any minds, and are just using the anonymity of the internet to vent. Most of them are probably pretty decent people in "real life."
Click to expand...

The case with Captain Courtesy is easy to believe as he is already a head doctor anyways, he just did a huge favor to whoever that guy decides to hire when he goes to "seek help"
 
I don't really care about "converting" the fanatic partisans, as they're lost causes. I can definitely say that I've been shifted on plenty of points over the years here.
 
marduc said:
This is an awesome punctuation mark for my post (especially since I have been arguing for legalizing so prolifically here).

Thank you!
Click to expand...

You're welcome. I wish I had some right now.
 
bhkad said:
I have changed positions based on these debates and am presently, slowly, coming to a new position on another issue (legalized pot) as a result of reading these exchanges.
Click to expand...

You're one of the people I was referring to whose positions were "mellowed."

Another, right off the top of my head, is Jerry.
 
Caine said:
The case with Captain Courtesy is easy to believe as he is already a head doctor anyways, he just did a huge favor to whoever that guy decides to hire when he goes to "seek help"
Click to expand...

Yeah, well, I said it was the first reversal I've seen on an online forum. Where it goes beyond that I do not claim to know.
 
If there notable debaters and stubborn you got no chance.
 
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