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Which is more likely to happen in America?

Which is more likely for America in the future?

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WI Crippler

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A libertarian revolution

or

A Marxist revolution?


While I personally don't see either event on the horizon, I think that a more libertarian philosophy will be adapted by the American public over time. Not an extreme version of libertarianism, but something a bit more moderate. For now, I feel there is no movement towards Marxism, even though there is a decent amount of movement towards socializing things at this time. There simply isn't going to be a "Workers revolution" or anything of that nature. People already know the dangers inherent in the Marxist ideology and its ties to communism.
I think in the future, more people will vote for small government representatives. Whether or not those people live up to their campaign promises would remain to be seen.

I also think this stimulus bill will be either a life preserver for centralizing government, or an anchor, depending on its success/failure. Alot of people seem to think it will not work, and if that is the case, it will be evident and people will vote accordingly. We've had 8 years of an ever expanding government under Bush, the Republican Congress, and Democratic Congress. It looks to be like at least 4 more years of the same, if not more, with no restraint in sight. Eventually, there will have to be a substantitive change and I feel that it would trend towards smaller government in a true sense, not in the sense republicans have lied about for a good many years.
 
WI Crippler said:
A libertarian revolution

or

A Marxist revolution?


While I personally don't see either event on the horizon, I think that a more libertarian philosophy will be adapted by the American public over time. Not an extreme version of libertarianism, but something a bit more moderate. For now, I feel there is no movement towards Marxism, even though there is a decent amount of movement towards socializing things at this time. There simply isn't going to be a "Workers revolution" or anything of that nature. People already know the dangers inherent in the Marxist ideology and its ties to communism.
I think in the future, more people will vote for small government representatives. Whether or not those people live up to their campaign promises would remain to be seen.

I also think this stimulus bill will be either a life preserver for centralizing government, or an anchor, depending on its success/failure. Alot of people seem to think it will not work, and if that is the case, it will be evident and people will vote accordingly. We've had 8 years of an ever expanding government under Bush, the Republican Congress, and Democratic Congress. It looks to be like at least 4 more years of the same, if not more, with no restraint in sight. Eventually, there will have to be a substantitive change and I feel that it would trend towards smaller government in a true sense, not in the sense republicans have lied about for a good many years.
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I don't think people are ever going to wake up and realize they want a smaller government. I think people are always going to vote for the candidate who promises them the best free stuff. I see government expanding without limit over eternity until everyone is like robots with no choices, no freedom and no risks, and I don't anticipate either of the revolutions you mentioned.
 
Unfortunately I don't think that either will happen.It seems like most voters aren't ready to think outside the box(dem or rep).

Libertarians are wacko's, nut jobs, as far as most people think.

Pres. Obama is already playing his cards for the stimulus plan not to work in his first term,but a second term will fix it,just my thoughts.

As long as the sheeple believe, the he said, she said, B.S. from the two ruling parties we have now, you won't see a change.

We the people need to make the politicians accountable for the way our government is run,right now they really don't care what we think.

If we tried to run a business the way our government is run we'd be in jail.
 
WI Crippler said:
A libertarian revolution

or

A Marxist revolution?
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That depends purely on who can co-opt the movement. Whatever the case, a revolution will pretty much only be possible if a majority of the people's most basic needs are not met. That doesn't come anywhere close to describing America's current situation....yet.
 
I don't see either happening.

People are easily fearful of any sort of move by a governmental power; the consolidation of media does not help either.
I mean, just last year we had people screaming that America was a Bush-Led Imperial nation.
Now it is a godless socialist movement led by the Communist-style dictator President Obama.

Make up your freaking mind people. Are we a bunch of Commies of Facis-zillas.
 
Marxism is far too discredited in the minds of the people to inspire any political movement in the near future due to the Soviet Union, regardless of how extremely insightful Marx may be on the economics of globalization.

The term libertarian doesn't mean anything. Everyone uses it to describe themselves because it sounds cool due to having "libert" in it. That is not a coherent platform to spark a revolution. If you mean a movement towards small government, well, good luck. Even the people who are supposedly for small government are deeply dependent on the thousands upon thousands of governments in this country. Small government is an impossibility. The United States is a freakishly massive country with the largest economic empire in the history of the world. The government will without a doubt be massive, and should be, if it is to be able to govern.

Anyway, what small government do you like? Somalia?
 
I wish I could share everyone's optimism.

Before things get better, the will get worse. young people are being indoctrinated with feel good nonsense about how free markets have failed them and sharing is caring. The elderly are already deeply invested into entitlement programs.

We will continue our slide towards marxism and when that inevitably fails, people will see through the charade and push back in the other direction.
 
ARealConservative said:
I wish I could share everyone's optimism.

Before things get better, the will get worse. young people are being indoctrinated with feel good nonsense about how free markets have failed them and sharing is caring. The elderly are already deeply invested into entitlement programs.

We will continue our slide towards marxism and when that inevitably fails, people will see through the charade and push back in the other direction.
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We can only hope. There are a lot of lazy, irresponsible, entitlement-grabbing, whiny mother****ers in this country though. I am not overly optimistic either.
 
I have to go with Marxist as it seems to be the natural progression of government as history has shown us.
 
People already know the dangers inherent in the Marxist ideology and its ties to communism.
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People don't "choose" Marxism; it is not simply a debate over what is best. The world isn't deterministic like that. What we're going to see is workers reaching more radical conclusions over the next few months/years based on their individual and collective struggles. We've already seen one factory occupation when this entire issue started, and while it wasn't founded on radical positions by any means, it was a profound step in the direction that will continue to develop.

Of course, it seems that you're just using the term "Marxism" as a synonym for big government or something of the sort, so it's hard to really respond to something based on such a ridiculously incorrect presumption.
 
rivrrat said:
We can only hope. There are a lot of lazy, irresponsible, entitlement-grabbing, whiny mother****ers in this country though. I am not overly optimistic either.
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Then the rest of us should inhabit part of the country and succeed from the government. **** those commie assholes.
 
In tough economic times i think people are more prone to turn to facism more than anything in the UK the BNP are growing in support.
 
Khayembii Communique said:
People don't "choose" Marxism; it is not simply a debate over what is best. The world isn't deterministic like that. What we're going to see is workers reaching more radical conclusions over the next few months/years based on their individual and collective struggles. We've already seen one factory occupation when this entire issue started, and while it wasn't founded on radical positions by any means, it was a profound step in the direction that will continue to develop.

Of course, it seems that you're just using the term "Marxism" as a synonym for big government or something of the sort, so it's hard to really respond to something based on such a ridiculously incorrect presumption.
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I see the soft sign behind the figure in your avatar.
I think it fits well with Marxism. The deterioration of Capitalism..... the acorn holds the seed of it's own destruction.... will happen softly (all according to Marxism)
 
rivrrat said:
We can only hope. There are a lot of lazy, irresponsible, entitlement-grabbing, whiny mother****ers in this country though. I am not overly optimistic either.
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This is true..
And maybe you would think that I am one of them..

But I think we must rid ourselves of the politically-correct SOBs who allow injustices to occur..
Some people do deserve a break...
but then, who does not ???
This must be given some thought.
 
I see the soft sign behind the figure in your avatar.
I think it fits well with Marxism. The deterioration of Capitalism..... the acorn holds the seed of it's own destruction.... will happen softly (all according to Marxism)
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"Soft" sign? What? What will happen softly? I really have no idea what you're trying to say here.
 
Khayembii Communique said:
"Soft" sign? What? What will happen softly? I really have no idea what you're trying to say here.
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Over the right (his right) shoulder of your avatar is the Russian "soft-sign" ь

and I just noticed it right before I read your post. I believe that according to Marxist theory, the cannibalization of capitalism with happen softly.. the workers being forced out of occupation by technology, and the cognitive premise to commune as they did in the factories (experience has pressed the subconsciousness of unity amongst the workers, as each worker is an "appendage of the machine").

Thought the soft sign makes a nice poetic connection with what you were saying.
 
and I just noticed it right before I read your post. I believe that according to Marxist theory, the cannibalization of capitalism with happen softly.. the workers being forced out of occupation by technology, and the cognitive premise to commune as they did in the factories (experience has pressed the subconsciousness of unity amongst the workers, as each worker is an "appendage of the machine").
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This isn't exactly correct. The development of the means of production is simply one part of capitalist competition, and also does not necessarily lead to "workers being forced out of occupation." The means of production is part of what Marx termed constant capital (as opposed to labour-power, which is variable capital - see this link for more information on constant and variable capital). The real source of surplus value is in variable capital - the exploitation of labour.

This exploitation can take many forms: cutting wages and/or benefits, increasing the length of the working day, making workers work harder/faster so that their wage is actually worth less in comparison to the amount of goods they produced, etc... So while the means of production are increased, the working day can also increase.

"Is it not a real contradiction that the means for reducing physical labour, such as mechanical and other improvements and betterments, are transformed by it into means for lengthening the working day?"
-N. Sieber, "Some Remarks on the Article of Mr. Y. Zhukovsky 'Karl Marx and His Book on Capital'" (Otechestvenniye Zapiski, November 1877, p.6)

If you're interested in learning more about Marx's economics I highly suggest you read Marx's Kapital for Beginners. It is one of those introductory books that's written in cartoon format. I have transcribed it here, although if you read it there you won't get the impact of the cartoons. However, that's probably the best introduction to Marxist economics that I've ever found (aside from perhaps Mandel's book, which is considerably longer), and is very easy to read and not that long (I think it took me a night or two to read it).

And what do you mean when you say that it will happen "softly"?
 
I do not see a revolution at all; I see a Stalin or Hitler like regime ruling.
 
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CaptainCourtesy said:
We...I mean they, will be more benevolent than you think. We...I mean they, will, however, eat the extremists. :2razz:

BTW, Tucker, you have not been authorized to discuss this. Please return to home-base to receive you consequences.
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If you two are representative of our future alien overlords, it will be the best comedy ever.

Please let me be part of the welcoming committee, I'll bring a cake. :2wave:
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
If you two are representative of our future alien overlords, it will be the best comedy ever.

Please let me be part of the welcoming committee, I'll bring a cake. :2wave:
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What do you mean representatives of your alien overlords, earthling? You dare question my omnipotence? I mean, questioning Tucker's is quite OK...he only got this assignment because he married into the royal family...but mine? Go clean my spaceship.

And New York style cheesecake would do. :mrgreen:
 
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