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Do you think downloading movies or other content should be illegal?

Do you think downloading movies and other content should be illegal?

  • Yes

    Votes: 10 27.8%
  • No

    Votes: 19 52.8%
  • Not sure

    Votes: 2 5.6%
  • Other (explain)

    Votes: 5 13.9%

  • Total voters
    36
If you think telling someone they don't know what they are talking about when they don't know what they are talking about is trolling, all I can say is... oh well.

Be civil or uncivil, I don't care, but you do not know what the hell you are talking about. :roll:

Lets review what you said.

You don't have a clue about patent law.

A statement without proof.

You are making yourself look rather silly with your statements about getting a new patent by making a minor modification.

Another statement outside of what I said or proof again.

Address what I said with informed opinion or facts instead of just making drive by pot shots.

Please continue on with your "troll lite". I'll either be a complete ass or just ignore you.
 
Funny, I think an individual would have put in quite a substantial amount of money, time, talent, and resources if he were somehow able to compete with a major corporate record label.

No, you don't have beat them simply to profit off someone else's work. Face it. You're a leech. A parasite.


Have to put food on the table, don't you? Of course the artificially inflated amounts of money which labels and 'artists' get today would be reduced by the loss of monopoly.

See, you're simply showing your contempt here.

And demonstrate, please, which you have never done, exactly HOW, if I write and record a song, I've "monopolized" the creation and sales of music?

Show it.


God's law, natural law, whatever you wish to call it. It is the only absolute law.

Show me passages on property rights and how intellectual property is excluded. Also, show me the enforcement division.


So you are admitting that IP gives another entity arbitrary veto power over what I can do with my own property?

No. I'm saying that what you THINK is "your property" isn't. You can scream all day that it is; it won't make it so.


"Sale" implies transfer of ownership. If its my property I can do with it as I wish. Otherwise, as I said, they should not misrepresent it as a sale but as a rental.

You don't actually know that much about property, even the Western concept of it, do you?

I think you should look up the term "fee simple determinable."

A "sale" entails exactly what is in the sales contract.


Really spending my hard-earned money on a CD and taking the time and effort to share my new property with others is "parasitic?"

Yes. Except it's not your property.


Of course anarchy is the theoretical ideal, just like curing cancer is the ideal for a medical researcher.

There's nothing ideal about anarchy. Under it, your "rights" are defined exactly by the extent to which you or your faction are able to withstand assault from another faction. There is no higher authority than brute force.

(It's typically the realization of that point where the mature mind abandons the idea of anarchy.)


Substitute "socialism" for "anarchy" and I think we have a pretty accurate picture of you here. But if I'm an adolescent, what does that make you? An infant?

There's nothing "socialist" about intellectual property in any way, shape, or form. In fact, it's YOU who argue that intellectual property is public property, so that makes YOU the socialist.


More appeals to authority.
2235_yawn.gif

As I said, only appeals to false authority are invalid. But you appeal to "nature" or "God" as your authority.

So, show me the clauses of God's or nature's law which show you to be correct. Let's see it.
 
On the surface I do and do not support it.

For music you can sample the product before you buy it

Movies I do agree with pirating in a limited aspect. I will download a movie to see if I like it or not. I won't keep it or burn it to a disk.

If I like it I will buy it then.

I'm not happy at all with length of copyrights though.

MLK's papers and speeches were copyrighted and since it has run out the King family has decided that the physical papers are not important and they have sold them.

That is more of a moral issue though.

Not sure what this has to do with illegally downloading and the fact that regardless of whether or not you 'keep' the movie you're still breaking and encouraging the breaking of distribution laws.

I'm talking about creating an entirely new addition to an original design.

An original design to an original design.

You mean like windshield wipers? I remember hearing there was a movie recently about this. The guy who apparently created it felt he was cheated out of his fair share of the money and to some extent I agree. If you've created something and have gotten the original creator's go ahead to add to his creation then it's fine. You should be paid for your work. But if you're just adding your own creation, making a profit and not caring about getting the rights/permission from the original design's creator then tough cookies and see you in court.

Yea but the plug in is an original design. It is an entirely new addition to adobe and they shouldn't have to pay anyone to create it.

Irrelevant. Something being 'original' does not mean it gets allowed to use the trademark, copyright, patents etc. of another design. Specially if those designers want to make a profit from a plug in which uses Adobe programs then they should pay for making money through Adobe's work.

I need to read up on distribution rights more before I can respond.

But let me ask you this. Why are genetically modified plants patented instead of copyrighted?

Because they are true inventions. Software, movies and music are not 'true' inventions as they are written down. For you to be awarded a patent you do not actually have a working model of is silly. Software is created through writing(programming), so is Music(lyrics, song structure - notes etc. all written) and movies(scripts). I guess the best way to explain this is that patents are awarded to inventions which have been proven to work. While copyright is reserved for that which is written.
 
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I'm with Hatuey on this one. There is no way downloading music should be legal.

But I'm willing to admit I am a hypocrite and pirate the stuff anyway.
 
Not sure what this has to do with illegally downloading and the fact that regardless of whether or not you 'keep' the movie you're still breaking and encouraging the breaking of distribution laws.

I'd ask you then, would you buy a piece of art without looking at it, a cd without know what type of music it was.

Why would you buy a movie without viewing it?

You mean like windshield wipers? I remember hearing there was a movie recently about this. The guy who apparently created it felt he was cheated out of his fair share of the money and to some extent I agree. If you've created something and have gotten the original creator's go ahead to add to his creation then it's fine. You should be paid for your work. But if you're just adding your own creation, making a profit and not caring about getting the rights/permission from the original design's creator then tough cookies and see you in court.

Thats not really what I was talking about.

Lets say I get a mustang and inspect the engine. There are area's to the engine where I could modify its design to increase performance, fuel economy or whatever.

I modify the engine(physically) and am happy with the results. Should I then be able to sell it even though the original design is under my modifications?

Irrelevant. Something being 'original' does not mean it gets allowed to use the trademark, copyright, patents etc. of another design. Specially if those designers want to make a profit from a plug in which uses Adobe programs then they should pay for making money through Adobe's work.

I know it can't use the original trademark.

What I'm saying is that. I purchase a copy of photoshop and find that there are many features that it is lacking. I reprogram it to include those features and sell it under a different name with my new features adapted to the program.

Because they are true inventions. Software, movies and music are not 'true' inventions as they are written down. For you to be awarded a patent you have to actually have a working model of is silly. Software is created through writing(programming), so is Music(lyrics, song structure - notes etc. all written) and movies(scripts). I guess the best way to explain this is that patents are awarded to inventions which have been proven to work. While copyright is reserved for that which is written.

Software is also an invention. It is a virtual non physical invention. Just because a program is in written form doesn't mean it isn't mechanical in design.

With GM plants they reprogram the original plant to produce a new desired result. It is biological software.
 
No, you don't have beat them simply to profit off someone else's work. Face it. You're a leech. A parasite.
People buy and sell profiting off each others work all the time. The free market allows for that. Do you propose we shut it down and let the state run everything?

See, you're simply showing your contempt here.

And demonstrate, please, which you have never done, exactly HOW, if I write and record a song, I've "monopolized" the creation and sales of music?

Show it.
"Monopoly: A monopoly is an economic condition in which a company, organization, or person has enough power over a certain product, service, or even industry, that they set the terms for others' accessibility to that product or service."

Can you explain how a label not allowing anyone else to sell a particular product is not a monopoly?

Show me passages on property rights and how intellectual property is excluded. Also, show me the enforcement division.
What? You want Bible passages on IP? :lamo

No. I'm saying that what you THINK is "your property" isn't. You can scream all day that it is; it won't make it so.

You don't actually know that much about property, even the Western concept of it, do you?

I think you should look up the term "fee simple determinable."

A "sale" entails exactly what is in the sales contract.

Yes. Except it's not your property.
In the Bizzaro World of "intellectual property," the content on a CD that I forked over hard-earned money for is not my property at all, but the abstract idea that the original producer still exclusively owns the "rights" to what is on my CD is enforceable by law. Truly insane; a total violation of property rights and freedom of contract.

There's nothing ideal about anarchy. Under it, your "rights" are defined exactly by the extent to which you or your faction are able to withstand assault from another faction. There is no higher authority than brute force.
Sounds like the definition of government.

(It's typically the realization of that point where the mature mind abandons the idea of anarchy.)
The mature mind knows that allowing the free market to operate is the ideal. Only the juvenile hold onto the naïve hope that government can save them from their woes.

There's nothing "socialist" about intellectual property in any way, shape, or form. In fact, it's YOU who argue that intellectual property is public property, so that makes YOU the socialist.
Actually its mercantilist, but since "socialism" seems to be used for any government intervention these days it certainly applies here.

Either way, "intellectual property" is 100% entirely incompatible with a free market capitalist system.


As I said, only appeals to false authority are invalid. But you appeal to "nature" or "God" as your authority.

So, show me the clauses of God's or nature's law which show you to be correct. Let's see it.
Really, when did I ever appeal to authority?

I argue right and wrong. Thus far your side has done nothing but appeal to government and established precedent in a vain attempt to shut down all discussion.

And any appeal to authority as proof that something is right is a logical fallacy.
 
People buy and sell profiting off each others work all the time. The free market allows for that. Do you propose we shut it down and let the state run everything?

My GOD, what a strawman. :roll: Show me where I've said anything remotely of the kind.

"Monopoly: A monopoly is an economic condition in which a company, organization, or person has enough power over a certain product, service, or even industry, that they set the terms for others' accessibility to that product or service."

Can you explain how a label not allowing anyone else to sell a particular product is not a monopoly?

By that argument, anyone who owns a shop has a monopoly, because no one else is allowed to profit from that shop. Even though there are hundreds of thousands of shops and no shop owner is keeping someone else from opening one.

In the real world, control over one song is by no rational means a "monopoly."

And if Coca-Cola doesn't want KFC to sell their product, then too bad -- KFC doesn't get to sell Coca-Cola.

What? You want Bible passages on IP? :lamo

I'm not the one appealing to "nature" or "God" as my authority. You're stating in absolutes that what you say is true. Prove it. Show me "the law."



In the Bizzaro World of "intellectual property," the content on a CD that I forked over hard-earned money for is not my property at all, but the abstract idea that the original producer still exclusively owns the "rights" to what is on my CD is enforceable by law. Truly insane; a total violation of property rights

Again, show me this enumeration of rights. Let's see it.


and freedom of contract.

Nope. It is EXACTLY freedom of contract. If you want ownership over a song, buy one from someone who's willing to sell you those rights. No one is obliged to do so, under freedom of contract.

Or is "freedom of contract" only so when it's under terms favorable to you?


Sounds like the definition of government.

Yet, it's an accurate description of anarchy. Go figure. :roll:


The mature mind knows that allowing the free market to operate is the ideal. Only the juvenile hold onto the naïve hope that government can save them from their woes.

Well, good luck when the bigger robber band comes to divest you of all that you hold dear. I'm sure your wailing about how it's "your property" will get you really far.


Actually its mercantilist, but since "socialism" seems to be used for any government intervention these days it certainly applies here.

You seek to make the fruits of someone's labor public property.


Either way, "intellectual property" is 100% entirely incompatible with a free market capitalist system.

You keep saying it, but it still isn't so.


Really, when did I ever appeal to authority?

You keep appealing to "property rights" as though there's an absolute authority on what those are.


I argue right and wrong.

So do I. It's wrong to leech off the fruits of others' labor.


Thus far your side has done nothing but appeal to government and established precedent

And you've appealed to thin air.

in a vain attempt to shut down all discussion.

Oh, waaah, waah, waah, waah. :roll: We don't agree with you or accept your arrogant proclamations as The Truth, so we're attempting to "shut down all discussion." What a baby.


And any appeal to authority as proof that something is right is a logical fallacy.

Not when the authority is what actually defines a thing. You do the same by appealing to "nature" or "God." Of course, you've never actually shown the enumeration of what you claim are rights, so . . .
 
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My GOD, what a strawman. :roll: Show me where I've said anything remotely of the kind.
Direct response to your quote complaining that people are able to profit on others' work.

By that argument, anyone who owns a shop has a monopoly, because no one else is allowed to profit from that shop. Even though there are hundreds of thousands of shops and no shop owner is keeping someone else from opening one.
Sorry, no, analogy doesn't work. What is it with you people and making up ridiculous comparisons that don't even make sense?

In the real world, control over one song is by no rational means a "monopoly."
It is, by definition, a monopoly. Whether you choose to accept it or not is inconsequential.

And if Coca-Cola doesn't want KFC to sell their product, then too bad -- KFC doesn't get to sell Coca-Cola.
And if KFC wants to produce their own cola to compete with Coca-Cola, there is no problem there. Another faulty analogy from you.

I'm not the one appealing to "nature" or "God" as my authority. You're stating in absolutes that what you say is true. Prove it. Show me "the law."
So you're going to stop appealing to authority? Thank you, since I have never done so in this thread.


Again, show me this enumeration of rights. Let's see it.
:rolleyes:


Nope. It is EXACTLY freedom of contract. If you want ownership over a song, buy one from someone who's willing to sell you those rights. No one is obliged to do so, under freedom of contract.
Freedom of contract would allow me to sell CDs that I own to a willing buyer without interference from the state.


Yet, it's an accurate description of anarchy. Go figure. :roll:
Hardly, government is merely a monopoly on force.


Well, good luck when the bigger robber band comes to divest you of all that you hold dear. I'm sure your wailing about how it's "your property" will get you really far.
Huh?


You seek to make the fruits of someone's labor public property.
Another straw man. I have never sought to do that.


Not when the authority is what actually defines a thing. You do the same by appealing to "nature" or "God." Of course, you've never actually shown the enumeration of what you claim are rights, so . . .
Of course, I've never actually appealed to authority at all in this thread.
 
People buy and sell profiting off each others work all the time. The free market allows for that. Do you propose we shut it down and let the state run everything? As long as the owner of the rights to that intellectual property has made his or her appropriate cut on the initial sale to the seller you're suggesting and that the subsequent sale is legit, then ok - but I doubt that's what you're getting at. What you're probably referring to is the illegal copying, selling or otherwise distributing of illegal copies.


"Monopoly: A monopoly is an economic condition in which a company, organization, or person has enough power over a certain product, service, or even industry, that they set the terms for others' accessibility to that product or service."

Can you explain how a label not allowing anyone else to sell a particular product is not a monopoly? While I highly doubt it, but I'll ask - do you own a car? If so, then you have a monopoly on that car. Same concept.

I was going to comment on the rest, but it's just too absurd to even waste another minute on.
 
I was going to comment on the rest, but it's just too absurd to even waste another minute on.

I may not 100% agree with him but there is a valid point to address.

The free flow of information is impeded with intellectual property rights.
I'm thinking more of the technical evolution as well as human evolution.
 
I may not 100% agree with him but there is a valid point to address.

The free flow of information is impeded with intellectual property rights.
"The Free Flow of Information" doesn't in any was necessarily trump intellectual property rights.
 
I may not 100% agree with him but there is a valid point to address.

The free flow of information is impeded with intellectual property rights.
I'm thinking more of the technical evolution as well as human evolution.

Alright, I'm jumping in here after a break from all the nonsense.

By "free flow of information", or more specifically - information, do you mean to differentiate between 'information' and 'property'?

Getting back on track here, we're not talking about information per se, we're talking about intellectual property rights (which may include "information").
 
"The Free Flow of Information" doesn't in any was necessarily trump intellectual property rights.

Your right. What I mean is that Microsoft in reality is a terrible OS.

There is lots of potential for outside individuals to adapt, repair, and upgrade it.

There are modified versions available for free on the net and it violates their IPR.
(This isn't a hate microsoft thing I'm just using it to make a point)
 
Direct response to your quote complaining that people are able to profit on others' work.

And an idiotic one, legitimately inferred by NOTHING I said.


Sorry, no, analogy doesn't work. What is it with you people and making up ridiculous comparisons that don't even make sense?

Sure it does. Owning one song is like owning one shop.


It is, by definition, a monopoly. Whether you choose to accept it or not is inconsequential.

Right. Having control over ONE song among millions is a monopoly. Riiiight.


And if KFC wants to produce their own cola to compete with Coca-Cola, there is no problem there. Another faulty analogy from you.

No, actually, it's a perfectly legitimate analogy, and you yourself just demonstrated exactly why.

No owner of a song is stopping anyone else from creating their own songs and competing, just like Coca-Cola can't stop anyone else from creating their own cola.

Thus, my analogy works perfectly. Thanks for pointing out how.

Besides, Mr. Unfettered Capitalism -- what have you got against monopolies?


So you're going to stop appealing to authority? Thank you, since I have never done so in this thread.

Certainly you have. You've appealed to "Western concepts" and "natural law" or whatever you choose to say it.

You say it's the Way Things Are. Prove it.


Freedom of contract would allow me to sell CDs that I own to a willing buyer without interference from the state.

Not if the seller exercises his freedom of contract and includes provision which doesn't permit it. You're free to take those terms or leave them. When you buy a CD, you're taking them. You've made a free choice. Whining about it doesn't change it.


Hardly, government is merely a monopoly on force.

So? It's the force which protects your precious property "rights."



Try to keep up.


Another straw man. I have never sought to do that.

Sure you do -- by denying the concept of the property right altogether.



Of course, I've never actually appealed to authority at all in this thread.

Well, you have not in the sense that you've yet to show how "rights" are enumerated in the way you claim.

But you certainly have appealed to "nature" or "God," as I pointed out above.

You're simply making things up the way you prefer them to be. If you are not, show it.

By the way, if I make the claim that the English defeated the Spanish Armada in 1588, and then cite a slew of history books as proof, that is an appeal to authority, because I have no firsthand knowledge of it. But it's a legitimate appeal to authority, because there's no other means of proof. Therefore, you have it conceptually wrong.

Not that you haven't all the way through this.

If you want a false appeal to authority, I'll give you this -- you claim that what you say is the absolute truth, yet you've offered nothing other than your proclamation of it as evidence. You are a false authority.

So, now's the time -- put up. Show your case to be irrefutably true.

If you won't or can't, there's not much point in wasting any further energy on this, because you've got nothing.
 
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Alright, I'm jumping in here after a break from all the nonsense.

By "free flow of information", or more specifically - information, do you mean to differentiate between 'information' and 'property'?

Getting back on track here, we're not talking about information per se, we're talking about intellectual property rights (which may include "information").

If someone holds IPR to a work and you can improve upon it, it is very difficult to do so when the holder won't let you.

Look at all the Linux distributions available and the quality they carry with them.

It all started from the original IPR holder releasing it to the public.
 
I'd ask you then, would you buy a piece of art without looking at it, a cd without know what type of music it was.

Why would you buy a movie without viewing it?

Your comparison is simply RIDICULOUS. The creator of a painting wants me to look at a painting before buying it. The rights owner of a music CD does not want me to download his music and not pay for it. The rights owner of a DVD does not want me to rip him off by pirating his DVDs. I buy a DVD and CD knowing that I may not like what is on it because that is what I agree to when buying the content and all the legal ramification that come with it.

Thats not really what I was talking about.

Lets say I get a mustang and inspect the engine. There are area's to the engine where I could modify its design to increase performance, fuel economy or whatever.

I modify the engine(physically) and am happy with the results. Should I then be able to sell it even though the original design is under my modifications?

I don't even know where to start with this because you've simply gone off the deep end as far as patents and copyright go. You can not get a patent or distribution rights of an engine because you've modified the performance or fuel level of somebody else's work. Not at all. I'm sorry but to keep arguing this shows you simply have no clue what patents are about.

I know it can't use the original trademark.

What I'm saying is that. I purchase a copy of photoshop and find that there are many features that it is lacking. I reprogram it to include those features and sell it under a different name with my new features adapted to the program.

Same as above.

Software is also an invention. It is a virtual non physical invention. Just because a program is in written form doesn't mean it isn't mechanical in design.

With GM plants they reprogram the original plant to produce a new desired result. It is biological software.

And again. Software because it is written is included under copyright. A patent is for physical inventions. Please read on this subject? You're making yourself look ridiculous.
 
Your comparison is simply RIDICULOUS. The creator of a painting wants me to look at a painting before buying it. The rights owner of a music CD does not want me to download his music and not pay for it. The rights owner of a DVD does not want me to rip him off by pirating his DVDs. I buy a DVD and CD knowing that I may not like what is on it because that is what I agree to when buying the content and all the legal ramification that come with it.

The music industry is getting wise to what is best for marketing. They allow you to hear the music before you buy it.

I have no problems with them.

With movies if I don't like it after I buy it I can not return it or get my money back.

The movie industry wants to have it both ways.

I don't even know where to start with this because you've simply gone off the deep end as far as patents and copyright go. You can not get a patent or distribution rights of an engine because you've modified the performance or fuel level of somebody else's work. Not at all. I'm sorry but to keep arguing this shows you simply have no clue what patents are about.

I am talking about a real physical modification. Not tuning the engine.
I talking about physically changing part of the structure of the engine.


And again. Software because it is written is included under copyright. A patent is for physical inventions. Please read on this subject? You're making yourself look ridiculous.

That is completely retarded. So if I build a machine with letters printed all over it I should then be able to copyright it?

Software is a virtual machine its function are completely identical to a machine except that it is in a virtual world.
 
What I'm saying is that Ford has never owned the patent or sole rights to the production of cars. Not ever. They do however own the production rights to the car models which they design. Where he got the idea that Ford has EVER owned the right to the production of cars is beyond me. That's like getting the production rights to books. Or chairs. And where you got that I said patents should run for 80 years or more is beyond me. You guys simply don't understand the debate at hand and are pretty much making it up as you go.
It was simple question no need for your infantile personal attacks. It was simply an impression I got from your post and I asked you a question.

When you purchase a CD with content in it. You do not purchase the distribution rights to the content within that CD. The only thing you are purchasing(other then the content) is the right to use that CD for the usage intended by the creator. This is made CLEAR from the moment you buy a DVD, Music CD, Software etc in many different ways from labels on the media to inside labels(black labels on that pop up when you start a DVD).
I know it is put on the CD. This however is a legal argument not a normative one.

I'm willing to endorse limited intellectual property rights, particularly copyrights for the present but I do note how they contravene common law principles of property and are a state fiat grant of monopoly. They also encourage consolidation and centralised in industry which is rarely a good thing in my book.
 
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From your link :

Business method patent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Business method patents are a class of patents which disclose and claim new methods of doing business. This includes new types of e-commerce, insurance, banking, tax compliance etc. Business method patents are a relatively new species of patent and there have been several reviews investigating the appropriateness of patenting business methods.[1] Nonetheless, they have become important assets for both independent inventors and major corporations.[2]
Whether a business method is regarded as patentable subject matter depends on the legal jurisdiction. The World Trade Organization’s Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights (TRIPS) does not specifically address business method patents.

Create a new type of engine. It can be patented anywhere in the world. Create a new business method and it depends where you are. My statement stands.
 
I really hate it when somebody steals my aesthetic. I hate it even more when somebody uses an image I created without permission even more. The first should be legal the second should not.
 
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