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Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

Was the United States founded on Christian principles?

  • Yes, it was.

    Votes: 18 41.9%

  • No, it wasn't.

    Votes: 25 58.1%
  • Total voters
    43
  • Poll closed .
Arch Enemy said:
Giving Christianity the authorship of these principles (that some seem to be suggesting are from Christianity) is like giving the makers of Dr. Thunder (Dr. Thunder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) the authorship of Dr. Pepper.

It doesn't work like that. You cannot play with time in that manner.
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You're right, it does not work like that. This is a pretty complex issue with plenty of well researched literature and material to use or argue with. None of yourpost thus far even begin to approach any sense of debate. :shock:
 
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Arch Enemy said:
I doesn't matter who added, or when it was added. Congress voted on it with the Barlow interpretations, including the plausibly atheist wording of Article XI
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You vote on the treaty that is signed, in this case the Arabic version, not the translation, which is NOT authoritative.
 
Degreez said:
A lot of people can say what they want. That doesn't rule out that there could be Article XI in the original Arabic version.

If the treaty specifically states a certain version of a treaty is the authoritative version of said treaty, then you are right.

But none of that occurred then. The English translation is what they read, heard, ratified, and signed. They did not know the contents of the Arabic version.
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But if there were to be a dispute in the execution of the treaty, as it was the Arabic version that was negotiated and signed, it would have been the Arabic version (just as the Treaty of Tunis was in Turkish) that would have been authoritative.

There is obviously enough dispute over the inclusion of Article 11 in the actual treaty for it to no longer go unquestioned in this forum, as it so often has. The language of the Treaty of Paris (1783) is both more definate and included in a far more important foundation document of the United States.
 
ruserious said:
Very much so. When the United States was founded I do not think that Christian principals were quite understood the way when understand them today and also they had to deal with much more hardships.
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I agree with this. When we say "Christian Principles", that does NOT necessarily mean the same thing that Christian evangelicals today claim it does.
 
ehhh...whatever...

Benjamin Franklin:
"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his religion...has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble."
--The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin, by Benjamin Franklin (Dover 1996)


Thomas Paine:
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, nor by any church that I know of... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbeliefe [sic]; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
--from The Age of Reason

"It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it as I detest everything that is cruel."

John Adams, the 2nd Constitutional President:
Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!'"
(John Adams, A Biography in His Own Words)


"We can never be so certain of any Prophecy or the fulfillment of any Prophecy; or of any miracle as We are, from the recelation of nature i.e. natures God that two and two are equal to four. Miracles or Prophecies might frighten Us out of our Witts; might scare us to death; might induce Us to lie, to say that We believe that 2 and 2 make 5. But We should not believe it. We should know the contrary."
-- The Adams-Jefferson Letters, ed. Lester Cappon (Chapel Hill 1959)


"the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."
John Adams, from the Treaty of Peace and Friendship (Article XI)


Thomas Jefferson:
"I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian."

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."

"The legitimate powers of government extend only to such acts as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
--from Notes on Virginia, 1784


James Madison, fourth president of the U.S.:

If Religion be not within the cognizance of Civil Government how can its legal establishment be necessary to Civil Government? What influence in fact have ecclesiastical establishments had on Civil Society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the Civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny: in no instance have they been seen the guardians of the liberties of the people.
--Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments


"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
--Letter to William Bradford

"denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious I am no Christian." (Reason, the Only Oracle of Man, by Ethan Allen)
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ludahai said:
But if there were to be a dispute in the execution of the treaty, as it was the Arabic version that was negotiated and signed, it would have been the Arabic version (just as the Treaty of Tunis was in Turkish) that would have been authoritative.
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Speculative.
ludahai said:
There is obviously enough dispute over the inclusion of Article 11 in the actual treaty for it to no longer go unquestioned in this forum, as it so often has. The language of the Treaty of Paris (1783) is both more definate and included in a far more important foundation document of the United States.
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It seemed to go unquestioned in front of President John Adams, and the entire Senate.
 
I don't even understand why this controversy has gone on so long...

It is obvious the answer is NO!

America was founded on religious freedoms not Christianity...
 
Degreez said:
Speculative.


It seemed to go unquestioned in front of President John Adams, and the entire Senate.
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Speculative? Speculative that it was written in Arabic and that English is the translation?

It is a moot point in terms of enforcement because Tripoli violated it a few years later after not getting tribute given to Algiers and Tunis despite the fact that the Treaty of Tripoli specifically stated no further tribute was be required.

If the treaty is written in a language, that is the language that is authoritative. There is nothing speculative about it.
 
Sir Loin said:
You're right, it does not work like that. This is a pretty complex issue with plenty of well researched literature and material to use or argue with. None of yourpost thus far even begin to approach any sense of debate. :shock:
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Because it wasn't until you post that there was a true debate.

I will respond don'tcha worry.
 
It was absolutely not founded on Christian principles, in fact, in every case where the founding fathers had the opportunity to insert religion into the process, it was soundly rejected. There were certainly some Christians involved, just as there were some deists and some atheists, but they all saw the importance of separation of church and state, they had escaped from the tyranny of England and Europe where religion poisoned politics and didn't want to make the same mistake here.
 
ludahai said:
Read the question, answer it, and give your reasons.
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The government is secular, but the nation as a whole was and is Christian.

Shamless plug: The 10 Big Lies About America
Myth: The Founders intended a secular, not Christian, nation.

Fact: Even after ratifying the Constitution, fully half the state governments endorsed specific Chris*tian denominations. And just a day after approving the First Amendment, forbidding the establishment of religion, Congress called for a national “day of public thanksgiving and prayer” to acknowledge “the many signal favors of Almighty God.”
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Not on the "Christian" principles of today. The term "Christian" as is commonly used today has very little to do with anything the Jesus Christ associated himself with. Today "Christian" is essentially a political body of individuals who aren't focused on following the principles the Christ taught, but rather seek to infiltrate society with their right-wing social agenda.
 
disneydude said:
Not on the "Christian" principles of today. The term "Christian" as is commonly used today has very little to do with anything the Jesus Christ associated himself with. Today "Christian" is essentially a political body of individuals who aren't focused on following the principles the Christ taught, but rather seek to infiltrate society with their right-wing social agenda.
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I think the Christian churches who wed same-sex couples, gay Catholic priests, Women who are anointed clergy and the millions of Pro-Choice Christians evidence the truth of your argument here.
 
I think a more correct term would be "Christian-Judeo" Principles. Of course the United States was founded on Christian-Judeo principles. The claim otherwise is to deny the reality of historical fact. I'm sure some will because the left keeps trying to rewrite history every day.

America's Godly Heritage
 
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Jerry said:
The government is secular, but the nation as a whole was and is Christian.

Shamless plug: The 10 Big Lies About America
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Jerry said:
I think the Christian churches who wed same-sex couples, gay Catholic priests, Women who are anointed clergy and the millions of Pro-Choice Christians evidence the truth of your argument here.
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Jerry, I hope you understand the idea behind a reliable source. Are you sure Medved is a reliable source and not a right-wing commentator who spews problematic bull**** just to infuriate the left?


Let me help you on some ideas of Medved, which I am sure you are aware.
http://townhall.com/columnists/MichaelMedved/2007/09/26/six_inconvenient_truths_about_the_us_and_slavery said:
IT’S NOT TRUE THAT THE U.S. BECAME A WEALTHY NATION THROUGH THE ABUSE OF SLAVE LABOR: THE MOST PROSPEROUS STATES IN THE COUNTRY WERE THOSE THAT FIRST FREED THEIR SLAVES.
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He is trying to "Inconveniently" tell us the truth about slavery, and uses the idea that those without slave labor, as it was abolished in many northern states before southern. However the fails to mention that the economy of the Americas WAS directly influenced by the SLAVE LABOR of the south. The North just did not will the raw materials into existence, they came from the South's slave labor.


He also like to deny the Genocide committed against the native americans, but that's for another debate (Michael Medved : Reject the Lie of White "Genocide" Against Native Americans - Townhall.com)

Now back on topic...... (next post)
 
As Sir Lion suggested I have not given any sort of debate-worthy material. I guess here it goes.


I think the real essence of what we are trying to get at, with the question "Was the United States founded on Christian principles", needs to be broken down into smaller questions.

1) What are Christian Principles?
2) What principles of Christianity are exclusive to and only to Christianity.
3) Is the United States based the expressed principles of the founding fathers, or what they considered their principles in a more personal life.


I think we need to make this a little bit simpler and consider that by "Principles" we are talking about "Morality". Basically, whether the idea of America's Morality is the same as the idea of Christian Morality. Furthermore, we would also have to ratify that America's Morality is exclusively the morality of Christian doctrine, and not a universal morality.

We need to see what the thinkers for contemporary moral philosophy have to say about it. David Hume, and Emmanuel Kant.

Hume was an empiricist; to believe that all knowledge is gained through experience.
Plan and simply, his views on Morality would be that morality follow from the self like so:
Experiences bombard the senses. Each experience is different for each individual. Out of the experiences we create the concept of morality, therefore there is no universal morality as each experience is different and knowledge cultivates morality. This philosophy also indoctrinates the idea that no one is punishable for wrongdoing, as morality is different based on each individual. Now I am on board with saying this one is not how America does things, as we throw people in jail for even the pettiest of crimes.


Emmanuel Kant was a rationalist. He fused ideas that the human knowledge is gained from both physical and metaphysical realms (experience and a categorical interpretation of the experience.)
Kant believed that morality is ""Act in such a way that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or in the person of another, always at the same time as an end and never simply as a means." which looks very similar to Christianity's golden rule (Kant was an agnostic, I could explain this point as well if you want me to).

What does this mean?
Well I think that more American legislation and laws are in the good will of this doctrine; this Universal law (as it is found in at least 21 religions around the world: Versions of the Golden Rule in 21 world religions) is not a creation or an explicit Christian idea-- it spans ideas from all over the world from different cultures.

This is very basic summation, if I need to go more indepth then I will.

Basically,
No, America is not founded on Christian principles because the principles on which America is founded on (Ethics of Reciprocity) are not exclusive to Christianity.
 
The founding fathers certainly believed in personal freedom and that God made man to be free. Just because that is a belief held by others who are not Christians it does not rule out judeo-Christian principles.
 
walleye said:
The founding fathers certainly believed in personal freedom and that God made man to be free. Just because that is a belief held by others who are not Christians it does not rule out judeo-Christian principles.
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I understand, but what I am getting at is that to say it was "founded on Christian principles" means that it was founded on principles exclusive to Christianity.

The true answer is that United States were founded on Universal Ethics.

There's quite a leap between the deism of the founding fathers and Christianity.
 
Arch Enemy said:
Jerry, I hope you understand the idea behind a reliable source.
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I hope you understand the difference between a source and a plug :lol:

I didn't source Medved to back up my argument, I plugged his argument to accompany my own, and he sources the Library of Congress :doh

Arch Enemy said:
Let me help you on some ideas of Medved, which I am sure you are aware.
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4. IT’S NOT TRUE THAT THE U.S. BECAME A WEALTHY NATION THROUGH THE ABUSE OF SLAVE LABOR: THE MOST PROSPEROUS STATES IN THE COUNTRY WERE THOSE THAT FIRST FREED THEIR SLAVES.

  • Pennsylvania passed an emancipation law in 1780; Connecticut and Rhode Island followed four years later (all before the Constitution). New York approved emancipation in 1799. These states (with dynamic banking centers in Philadelphia and Manhattan) quickly emerged as robust centers of commerce and manufacturing, greatly enriching themselves while the slave-based economies in the South languished by comparison.
    [*]At the time of the Constitution, Virginia constituted the most populous and wealthiest state in the Union, but by the time of the War Between the States the Old Dominion had fallen far behind a half-dozen northern states that had outlawed slavery two generations earlier.
    [*]All analyses of Northern victory in the great sectional struggle highlights the vast advantages in terms of wealth and productivity in New England, the Mid-Atlantic States and the Midwest, compared to the relatively backward and impoverished states of the Confederacy.
    [*]While a few elite families in the Old South undoubtedly based their formidable fortunes on the labor of slaves, the prevailing reality of the planter class involved chronic indebtedness and shaky finances long before the ultimate collapse of the evil system of bondage.
    [*]The notion that America based its wealth and development on slave labor hardly comports with the obvious reality that for two hundred years since the founding of the Republic, by far the poorest and least developed section of the nation was precisely that region where slavery once prevailed    .
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All of that is historically accurate.

Arch Enemy said:
He is trying to "Inconveniently" tell us the truth about slavery, and uses the idea that those without slave labor, as it was abolished in many northern states before southern. However the fails to mention that the economy of the Americas WAS directly influenced by the SLAVE LABOR of the south. The North just did not will the raw materials into existence, they came from the South's slave labor.
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You're misrepresenting his argument.

Medved did not argue that slavery had no influence at all whatsoever, yet you are claiming he did argue such.

Medved is arguing that America did not become wealthy from slave labor, that America in fact gained more wealth as slavery was abolished.

Someone doesn't need to mention every single irrelevant piece of trivia you can dig up for their argument to be true. Besides, your trivia doesn't counter his argument, so it's irrelevant.

Arch Enemy said:
He also like to deny the Genocide committed against the native americans, but that's for another debate (Michael Medved : Reject the Lie of White "Genocide" Against Native Americans - Townhall.com)
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This example is shot down just as easily as your first attempt, are you sure you want to continue?
 
Jerry said:
I think the Christian churches who wed same-sex couples, gay Catholic priests, Women who are anointed clergy and the millions of Pro-Choice Christians evidence the truth of your argument here.
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Don't recall Jesus Christ having much to say about any of the "issues" which you raised.
 
Arch Enemy said:
[...]
I think the real essence of what we are trying to get at, with the question "Was the United States founded on Christian principles", needs to be broken down into smaller questions.

1) What are Christian Principles?
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law.com Law Dictionary

n. 1) standards of conduct derived from traditional moral principles (first mentioned by Roman jurists in the first century A.D.) and/or God's law and will. The biblical ten commandments, such as "thou shall not kill," are often included in those principles. Natural law assumes that all people believe in the same Judeo-Christian God and thus share an understanding of natural law premises.

2) the body of laws derived from nature and reason, embodied in the Declaration of Independence assertion that "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

3) the opposite of "positive law," which is created by mankind through the state.
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Arch Enemy said:
2) What principles of Christianity are exclusive to and only to Christianity.
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Quoted from above:
Natural law assumes that all people believe in the same Judeo-Christian God and thus share an understanding of natural law premises
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The people who penned and signed the Constitution forming our seculer governement were decidly Christian:

Religion of the Founding Fathers of America
Charles Carroll Maryland Catholic
Samuel Huntington Connecticut Congregationalist
Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist
William Williams Connecticut Congregationalist
Oliver Wolcott Connecticut Congregationalist
Lyman Hall Georgia Congregationalist
Samuel Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist
John Hancock Massachusetts Congregationalist
Josiah Bartlett New Hampshire Congregationalist
William Whipple New Hampshire Congregationalist
William Ellery Rhode Island Congregationalist
John Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
Robert Treat Paine Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
George Walton Georgia Episcopalian
John Penn North Carolina Episcopalian
George Ross Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Thomas Heyward Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
Thomas Lynch Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
Arthur Middleton South Carolina Episcopalian
Edward Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian
Francis Lightfoot Lee Virginia Episcopalian
Richard Henry Lee Virginia Episcopalian
George Read Delaware Episcopalian
Caesar Rodney Delaware Episcopalian
Samuel Chase Maryland Episcopalian
William Paca Maryland Episcopalian
Thomas Stone Maryland Episcopalian
Elbridge Gerry Massachusetts Episcopalian
Francis Hopkinson New Jersey Episcopalian
Francis Lewis New York Episcopalian
Lewis Morris New York Episcopalian
William Hooper North Carolina Episcopalian
Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
John Morton Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Stephen Hopkins Rhode Island Episcopalian
Carter Braxton Virginia Episcopalian
Benjamin Harrison Virginia Episcopalian
Thomas Nelson Jr. Virginia Episcopalian
George Wythe Virginia Episcopalian
Thomas Jefferson Virginia Episcopalian (Deist)
Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist)
Button Gwinnett Georgia Episcopalian; Congregationalist
James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyterian
Joseph Hewes North Carolina Quaker, Episcopalian
George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker, Episcopalian
Thomas McKean Delaware Presbyterian
Matthew Thornton New Hampshire Presbyterian
Abraham Clark New Jersey Presbyterian
John Hart New Jersey Presbyterian
Richard Stockton New Jersey Presbyterian
John Witherspoon New Jersey Presbyterian
William Floyd New York Presbyterian
Philip Livingston New York Presbyterian
James Smith Pennsylvania Presbyterian
George Taylor Pennsylvania Presbyterian
Benjamin Rush Pennsylvania Presbyterian
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Christians using Christian concepts to form a Christian nation with a secular government.

Arch Enemy said:
3) Is the United States based the expressed principles of the founding fathers, or what they considered their principles in a more personal life.
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The very Declaration of Independence was based on the authority of the Judeo-Christian God and rights God affords to Man.

So yes, America was founded as a Christian nation.
 
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