Primary Source of Job Losses

[obvious Child]

Outside of cyclical job losses, which do you think is the primary source of job losses:

Technology (automation)

Or

Outsourcing

 

[RightinNYC]

Neither?

Not sure what would fall under the category of "technology," but I can't imagine it being that much.

And the whole "jobs lost to outsourcing" thing is a bit of a myth. There are 6.4 million people in this country employed by US subsidiaries of foreign firms. For every guy whose job in tech support is outsourced to India, there's a factory worker in Tennessee who is hired by Nissan. I'd wager it balances out or at least comes close.

I think the primary source(s) of job loss are just natural economic events.

 

[obvious Child]

I think the primary source(s) of job loss are just natural economic events.

I stated "Outside of cyclical job losses."

I'd argue that automation kills jobs. Why bother hiring 100 men to dig a trench when one guy at a machine can do the job? Why hire 100 women to operate a telephone system when a machine with a part time technician can do the job? Why hire legal researchers when a database and intern can do it? Technology has always been a great way to reduce labor costs.

 

[Kandahar]

Neither?

Not sure what would fall under the category of "technology," but I can't imagine it being that much.

I would assume it means that you don't need people to repair typewriters when the world uses personal computers. You don't need buggy manufacturers when the world uses automobiles. You don't need iron lung makers when the world has a polio vaccine. You don't need bank tellers when the world has ATMs. Etc, etc.

And the whole "jobs lost to outsourcing" thing is a bit of a myth. There are 6.4 million people in this country employed by US subsidiaries of foreign firms. For every guy whose job in tech support is outsourced to India, there's a factory worker in Tennessee who is hired by Nissan. I'd wager it balances out or at least comes close.

I agree.

The primary cause of non-cyclical job losses is automation, not outsourcing.

 

[ronpaulvoter]

The PRIMARY cause of job losses is government meddling and interference.

It covers a lot of ground--from excessive taxes to regulations, mandates, restrictions, and licensure.

It includes all levels of government--from federal and state on down to the smallest city councils and homeowners' associations.

Get rid of excessive government meddling, spending and taxation, and the American economy will skyrocket.

Impose more government programs, bailouts, regulations, corporate welfare, public works projects, spending and taxes, and deeper into depression we will go.

Read Free to Choose, Economics in One Lesson, and The Law (Frederick Bastiat's version) for some good advice.

And also LewRockwell.com

What is your choice?

 

[Kernel Sanders]

I stated "Outside of cyclical job losses."

I'd argue that automation kills jobs. Why bother hiring 100 men to dig a trench when one guy at a machine can do the job? Why hire 100 women to operate a telephone system when a machine with a part time technician can do the job? Why hire legal researchers when a database and intern can do it? Technology has always been a great way to reduce labor costs.

You still need people to design, build, and maintain the machines. The tech industry employs millions of people, I seriously doubt that technology results in less jobs.

 

[Kandahar]

You still need people to design, build, and maintain the machines. The tech industry employs millions of people, I seriously doubt that technology results in less jobs.

I think he meant individual jobs, not the job market as a whole.

The point is that most of the people who complain about furriners taking jobs for less money seem perfectly happy to let machines take jobs for less money. As they should be, since lower labor costs mean lower product costs and a higher standard of living.

 

[shiznit770]

I would say the primary source of job loss is technology, but not in the option you've offered. The employee who cannot adapt and/or increase his productivity through experience will eventually lose his job. Every industry is increasingly utilizing new technologies. Gone are the days when you can do the same job for 40 years. One of the drawbacks (benefit imo) of living in a prominent developed country.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

I would say the primary source of job loss is technology, but not in the option you've offered. The employee who cannot adapt and/or increase his productivity through experience will eventually lose his job. Every industry is increasingly utilizing new technologies. Gone are the days when you can do the same job for 40 years. One of the drawbacks (benefit imo) of living in a prominent developed country.

What does this mean? The employee is pretty bound by his working conditions on how "productive" he can be.

 

[shiznit770]

What does this mean? The employee is pretty bound by his working conditions on how "productive" he can be.

You may not be aware of this, but productivity varies greatly from person to person. This is due to their abilities, mainly the amount of effort put forth. Employees who strive to do their job well and improve efficiency are valuable, those who do not are far more likely to be let go if situations change.

 

[Vader]

My thought on the true cause of job loss in the United States is corporate greed.

Outsourcing outside the United States needs to be outlawed. This will make it impossible for disgusting, greedy, corporate asshats to send American jobs overseas.

This will keep Americans working and stimulate the economy in the process.

 

[Phoenix]

Outsourcing and Technology are essentially the same from an economic standpoint. It's finding a more efficient way to produce a product.

Here is a video about a plant in Brazil. The unions will not let Ford do the same thing here.

YouTube - detnews.com - Ford's most advanced assembly plant operates in rural Brazil



My thoughts are that the primary loss of jobs is due to bad government fiscal and economic policies. Businesses generally strive to produce more, which, in general, employs more people. Government has other agendas that do not consider the effects on businesses.

 

[SWM]

Historically, technology. In recent years in the US, perhaps you could make an argument that outsourcing has had a bigger effect. Perhaps not.

And guys: Massive job loss happens. It is an inherent element of capitalism. It is an inevitable negative result of some of capitalism's best features. It is the consequence of innovation. If you do not have massive job loss in your country, you do not have innovation, and you probably don't have capitalism. All of us could go on and on about issues concerning the negative effects of government intervention in the work place, but it is not the primary cause of job loss.

Some number of years ago almost everyone in America farmed for a living. Over time, developments came into place that allowed fewer people to grow and harvest a greater number of crops more efficiently. Because of this more people were able to eat more for cheaper, and many people found they were no longer able to make a living farming. Over time, those people found other things they were able to sustain themselves by doing. Some of them may not have, and suffered for the rest of their lives. This is tragic, but it is an unavoidable result of the entire world moving forward for the better. See also: Industrial revolution, invention of the printing press, textile industry migration, the ends of any number of wars.

We can debate reasonably about how far we should lend a hand to the victims of innovation. Some of you would say not an inch, which is fine. But, at the end of the day, hard-working people sometimes get layed off because an industry moves forward (or across an ocean). We accept this, see what we can do about it post-firing; or we advocate international protectionism and the stifling of innovation.

 

[Kandahar]

Outsourcing outside the United States needs to be outlawed.

That is neither possible nor practical. If Acme Widgets lays off a worker in their Detroit plant and hires another worker with the same job title in their Shanghai plant, was that job outsourced? What if there's a six-month gap between the layoff and the hiring? What if there's a twelve-month gap? What if the job titles aren't the same, but the job functions are similar?

Even if one wanted to, it's impossible to point to any individual act and call it "outsourcing." Besides, outsourcing is a great thing for our economy and for the economies of other nations.

This will make it impossible for disgusting, greedy, corporate asshats to send American jobs overseas.

But you have no problem at all with disgusting, greedy corporate asshats giving American jobs to robots? Should automation be outlawed too?

This will keep Americans working and stimulate the economy in the process.

Economies are much stronger when they trade freely with one another and are allowed to allocate their resources efficiently. American workers should seek better training and move to industries where Americans have the competitive advantage, instead of asking the government to shield them from market realities.

 

[UtahBill]

I would say the primary source of job loss is technology, but not in the option you've offered. The employee who cannot adapt and/or increase his productivity through experience will eventually lose his job. Every industry is increasingly utilizing new technologies. Gone are the days when you can do the same job for 40 years. One of the drawbacks (benefit imo) of living in a prominent developed country.

correct, technology makes us more productive, allows fewer people to get more done in a shorter time.
I would say that outsourcing, done by management to save money, is a bigger factor. Henry Ford paid more than the going wage so his employees could afford to buy what they were building. The modern corporate world doesn't have Henry's vision....

 

[shiznit770]

correct, technology makes us more productive, allows fewer people to get more done in a shorter time.
I would say that outsourcing, done by management to save money, is a bigger factor. Henry Ford paid more than the going wage so his employees could afford to buy what they were building. The modern corporate world doesn't have Henry's vision....

While I agree that outsourcing is a big part of job loss today, I don't associate that with corporate greed, its capitalism. Henry Ford was an admirable man during the depression but his business practice is clearly obsolete in the 21st century. In the information age the employee has limitless potential (with adequate motivation) and does not need handouts from Henry.

 

[UtahBill]

While I agree that outsourcing is a big part of job loss today, I don't associate that with corporate greed, its capitalism. Henry Ford was an admirable man during the depression but his business practice is clearly obsolete in the 21st century. In the information age the employee has limitless potential (with adequate motivation) and does not need handouts from Henry.

are you suggesting that technology replacing the worker IS corporate greed?
Surely it is capitalism as well....

the employee is a long term expense, as GM has discovered. You work them for 40 years, then they retire and become a drag on your profits for another 30 years....

 

[shiznit770]

are you suggesting that technology replacing the worker IS corporate greed?
Surely it is capitalism as well....

the employee is a long term expense, as GM has discovered. You work them for 40 years, then they retire and become a drag on your profits for another 30 years....

No

I was just making clear that Henry Ford's feel good business manner is wrong for today's economy. The modern employee should not expect to stay at the same job for 40 years, they must adapt.

 

[juggler]

The IRS is the primary source of job losses. See business are leaving the US because every business decision that is made is made in the light of how will this affect me tax burden. Many business are leaving because of the intrusive IRS. Voluntary tax is what they call it, Ed Brown can tell you that it's not voluntary oh, wait no he can't he's in jail over tax matters. He did not harm anyone he just did not pay a "voluntary" tax. So as a business owner, if I cannot afford to pay taxes I cut jobs, If I cannot make a profit I cut more jobs trying to stay afloat, if that does not work I bring my business to a place where I am not taxed to pay for people who want handouts because the government keeps telling them they are entitled to it. There is a better way.
Americans For Fair Taxation: Americans for Fair Taxation

 

[UtahBill]

No

I was just making clear that Henry Ford's feel good business manner is wrong for today's economy. The modern employee should not expect to stay at the same job for 40 years, they must adapt.

The modern job may need the modern employee, but there will still be plenty of other "old fashioned" jobs that don't need the modern employee.

 

[Vader]

That is neither possible nor practical. If Acme Widgets lays off a worker in their Detroit plant and hires another worker with the same job title in their Shanghai plant, was that job outsourced? What if there's a six-month gap between the layoff and the hiring? What if there's a twelve-month gap? What if the job titles aren't the same, but the job functions are similar?

Since that plant is in another country -- Yes, it is outsourcing. American companies need to be employing Americans first. PERIOD.

Even if one wanted to, it's impossible to point to any individual act and call it "outsourcing." Besides, outsourcing is a great thing for our economy and for the economies of other nations.

Ummm... No.

It's a great thing for other counties because they get jobs for their people. Likewise, the American people are going hungry because their jobs are being shipped to some 3rd world ****hole so some corporate ********er can save on wages and pocket the difference by way of a bonus.

No.

Anything that involves shipping jobs overseas needs to be outlawed. American corporations need to be employing Americans first. PERIOD ... END OF STORY.

Jobs for Americans --- YES

Outsourcing = NO

Greedy Corporate ********ers = NO

Economies are much stronger when they trade freely with one another and are allowed to allocate their resources efficiently. American workers should seek better training and move to industries where Americans have the competitive advantage, instead of asking the government to shield them from market realities.

Trade is fine.

Corporate ****nobs shipping jobs overseas to save money on salaries and benefits is not.

I advocate an AMERICANS FIRST policy in business. This does not mean that I would choose an American over somebody else if the job in question was in the United States (unless that person was illegal).

I simply believe that business needs to be barred from causing abject poverty in America by sending jobs overseas.

American corporations need to be severely punished for outsourcing jobs solely for saving money.

I realize Republicans and NeoCons will not agree because they are all about big bonuses earned by corporate downsizing.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Outside of cyclical job losses, which do you think is the primary source of job losses:

Technology (automation)

Or

Outsourcing

Economic instability/weak economic model(cyclical job losses)..

If the economy was stable it would be possible to sustain a below 3% unemployment level constantly.

 

[UtahBill]

Since that plant is in another country -- Yes, it is outsourcing. American companies need to be employing Americans first. PERIOD.



Ummm... No.

It's a great thing for other counties because they get jobs for their people. Likewise, the American people are going hungry because their jobs are being shipped to some 3rd world ****hole so some corporate ********er can save on wages and pocket the difference by way of a bonus.

No.

Anything that involves shipping jobs overseas needs to be outlawed. American corporations need to be employing Americans first. PERIOD ... END OF STORY.

Jobs for Americans --- YES

Outsourcing = NO

Greedy Corporate ********ers = NO





But you have no problem at all with disgusting, greedy corporate asshats giving American jobs to robots? Should automation be outlawed too?



Economies are much stronger when they trade freely with one another and are allowed to allocate their resources efficiently. American workers should seek better training and move to industries where Americans have the competitive advantage, instead of asking the government to shield them from market realities.

[/QUOTE]

without technology and automation, we could not compete with any country, much less other developed countries....

 

[Vader]

without technology and automation, we could not compete with any country, much less other developed countries....[/quote]

Depriving Americans of jobs that pay $14.00 per hour so that some 3rd world county employee can make $1.73 each week for the same work is UNACCEPTABLE.

It needs to be outlawed.

 

[shiznit770]

Depriving Americans of jobs that pay $14.00 per hour so that some 3rd world county employee can make $1.73 each week for the same work is UNACCEPTABLE.

It needs to be outlawed.

There's nothing wrong with outsourcing. It places a burden on the employee to do something beyond work in a factory line but also makes our country rich and common conveniences easily attainable.