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Which is Islam's Main Goal: To Captivate, Convert or Kill Us?

Which is Islam's Main Goal: To Captivate, Convert or Kill Us?

  • Captivate

    Votes: 6 9.4%

  • Convert

    Votes: 24 37.5%

  • Kill

    Votes: 14 21.9%

  • None of the Above

    Votes: 27 42.2%

  • Other (Specify)

    Votes: 9 14.1%
  • Total voters
    64
All of the above.
 
Australianlibertarian said:
Sorry but your claims were in relation to reality. These claims were not just hypotheticals or metaphysical, you were suggesting that in the real world that certain people act in certain way due to whether or not they believe in god. The conversation is no longer theoretical, but rather aplied......

You made claims about observations you have seen in the real world. Once you cross that line, it is no longer opinion but rather you are making claims which can be asserted or refuted. It's that simple........

So please don't play 'I was only making opinion', when your observations where based on your experience. That is the physical and real, and not the metaphysical of theoretical.

Secondly, you have not explained why sodomy is the equivalent of cheating, lying or stealing. You have mentioned a phobia of things 'dirty', but you have failed to connect the dots by explaining why something is immoral when it is dirty.....

So Maximus, are all of the people that do dirty jobs immoral, because they have to deal with dirty situations? Or do those people provide society with a certain amount utility, while sodomy doesn't?

If you talk about experiences or what you have seen, we are no longer talking about the theoretical, but rather the real, natural and measurable world. So yes science does come into this, if you are making claims about this world as opposed to the theoretical or hypothetical; empirical forms of debate enter into the equation. Otherwise I might as well say that I believe the sky is green......

Lastly you confuse my empirical analysis of your argument with Freudian defensiveness... Why do you assume that anyone that challenges your un-substantiated claims about homosexuals is therefore gay?

Basically I have challenged your claims about homosexuality, and the best you can do is talk about dirtiness or suggest that I am gay....... I am still waiting for empirical defense of your claims about the real world as opposed to dodging of the issue.

But hay opinions are cool.... Did I tell you that moon cheese tends to make people nicer compared to non-moon cheese eating people?????? Ohhhhhh it's not a claim Maximus, its just an opinion.........

Do you understand the difference between personal and subjective, versus objective/causative/probative?

So why does atheism make people more immoral or less likely to have a moral code than a religious person?

And why is sodomy immoral because it is dirty? That is, why do you compare anal sex to cheating, theft, lying or greed?

I await your ENLIGHTENED answer.
Click to expand...

I never said you were gay.. I just apologized in advance IF you happened to be gay, because what I said after was brutally honest.
I am talking about experience and I am talking from knowledge about religious people in comparison to "inherited religious people(actual no religious)", and "non religious people". My greatest knowledge on the topic is between religious and inherited people, because I dont know many atheists, or know their status, but in my country and many other country its rather the norm that people claim a religion without actually having read any religious work or actually being religious.
If an atheist reads and understand the moral of for example the bible, this is almost the same as being religious, because you probably adopted the good ethics and morals of the biblical teachings.
However, in my experience also including atheists, the worst people tend to be the "inherited religious people", usually they actually have VERY low morals compared to religious people. Personally I cant be with most people, because its so frequent that they backbite other people, lie, cheat and talk about sins, I just cant stand that, it actually makes me sick to know what the norm is and how low actual average morals are. I prefer talking about real things, science, politics, economics, IT and many other topics, but I just hate talking about other people behind their backs. On the other hand I can be one of the very first people to be brutally honest to someone right in their face, trying to avoid saying it in a hurtful way however, but me talking behind someone back, never gonna happen. None of this makes me popular, but it makes my integrity strong and my life headed in the right direction. I see people fail all around me, because of the way they conduct their life and what their lives are really about. I would say a much higher proportion of non religious people fail like this than religious, in fact I would say that virtually none of the dedicated religious people fail like this.
Of all the people I have met, most are non-religious(including "inherited/state religious" and that these people live life standards and have a more decaying lifestyle than the religious people that I meet. I also find it that these people live unhealthy and non-smart lives filled with damaging activities and lack of intelligent or progressive lifestyles. Of the religious people I meet almost ALL of them live intelligent and progressive lifestyles.

Just a short summery of a badly put together answer, I blame the lack of religion for our societies in decay, and I dream of a world where all people are wise enough to live good productive lives, to live intelligently, to live in progress rather than decline.

This was probably not the answer you were looking for, but I didnt really understand the context of your posting.
 
Genetic Religion

"Genetic Religion"
Laila said:
The Sun, what a wonderful piece of trash.
I am not obligated to do nothing but my 5 pillars towards God.
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Prostrating oneself before mecca is allegiance to the preservation of the patriarchal lineage of ishmael.
 
Re: Genetic Religion

Monk-Eye said:
"Genetic Religion"
Prostrating oneself before mecca is allegiance to the preservation of the patriarchal lineage of ishmael.
Click to expand...

Hajj is one of the 5 pillars so ..
 
Claims

"Claims"
Laila said:
Hajj is one of the 5 pillars so ..
Click to expand...
Abraham had two sons, isaac and ishmael, the reason muhammad referred to himself as the last prophet (abrahamic) is a matter of deduction, a process of elimination.

Moses represented himself as the lawgiver for the israelis (eponymous isaac), jesus represented himself as the lawgiver for the gentiles (eponymous goyn), and muhammed represented himself as the lawgiver for the quraysh (qurayn, eponymous ishmael).

So, understand the limitations of jurisdiction, particularly with respect to city state laws and territorial boundaries of tribal peoples.
 
EgoffTib said:
How do you figure?
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Many of them Avoid getting into religious conversations, thats where I got my Idea .
But there is no problem as long as they dont show hatred or spread their Ideas among society.
 
Ahmed Shaheen said:
Many of them Avoid getting into religious conversations, thats where I got my Idea .
But there is no problem as long as they dont show hatred or spread their Ideas among society.
Click to expand...

Yeah because the majority is always right.:doh
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
Yeah, and that Muslims will be rulers and all westerners have to submit to them and be their slaves, this is what will happen. Bhkad has predicted it alongside all his extreme right friends in Europe and the far right Americans.

:2funny:
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Are you serious ?..ever ?
The last thing any sane man wants is to have anyone "rule" him...particularly a Muslim.
These are good reasons for the popularity of Zen-Buddhism..
I consider myself to be a Deist.....to hell with religion..
 
none of the above - you are trying to assign human ambitions to non human entities.
 
Ahmed Shaheen said:
Many of them Avoid getting into religious conversations, thats where I got my Idea .
But there is no problem as long as they dont show hatred or spread their Ideas among society.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that is what I thought:

“...if I see an article about Christians being put on trial in a certain country for just simply spreading the word, carrying out their religion, and the accusers themselves make no accusation of the Christians using force, oppression or persecution I will have to look in the Koran to see what it says about forcing religion on others. I would like to know where in the Koran it says that Christians can’t practice their religion, which requires the spreading (not by force) of the word, because if Islam is afraid of the Christian word then Islam is insecure in it‘s beliefs? By understanding the word I can know whether the Islamic country allegedly doing the persecution is following their religion, which can’t be a true religion if it must be forced (a faith is not a faith if it must be forced), and whether those being persecuted were violating their social contract, and then can judge how my country should respond if it‘s citizens are involved.” (posted August 30, 2001 10:35 PM) {Bold emphasis added for those without a faith, whose handle is not the firmest}

You make a good argument in favor of supporting Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish home able to prevent the spread of the ideas of Islam, which is not a faith just like atheism. We wouldn’t want the guy on our Islam TV who quoted last night from the Gospel , word for word the “Golden Rule,” to deceive the little Jewish kiddies with what the Koran (Ideas) obviously lacks in faith.

“005.032
YUSUFALI: On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
PICKTHAL: For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.
SHAKIR: For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.” CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts

I really loved the way our local Mr. Rogers of Islam TV had no problem mentioning Israel in a program about the current war, but avoided mentioning Hamas’ murder and corruption when mentioning Palestinians. I wouldn’t even know Hamas existed listening to that sweet soft voice without a faith.
 
DivineComedy said:
Yeah, that is what I thought:

“...if I see an article about Christians being put on trial in a certain country for just simply spreading the word, carrying out their religion, and the accusers themselves make no accusation of the Christians using force, oppression or persecution I will have to look in the Koran to see what it says about forcing religion on others. I would like to know where in the Koran it says that Christians can’t practice their religion, which requires the spreading (not by force) of the word, because if Islam is afraid of the Christian word then Islam is insecure in it‘s beliefs? By understanding the word I can know whether the Islamic country allegedly doing the persecution is following their religion, which can’t be a true religion if it must be forced (a faith is not a faith if it must be forced), and whether those being persecuted were violating their social contract, and then can judge how my country should respond if it‘s citizens are involved.” (posted August 30, 2001 10:35 PM) {Bold emphasis added for those without a faith, whose handle is not the firmest}
Click to expand...

thanks for your opinion DC,
But I hadn't said christians musn't spread their Ideas, and so did the Islam, But am talking about certain rules in here.
Like: (you are an Athiest,you are free in that,but dont spread your Ideas into our society, because we are faithful society,Like how we leaves you, leave us)

Another thing, Islam isnt forcing anyone to get into it or sth. , the best evidence about it is that Christians, Sieks, Hindus ... are living between us peacefully since our Prophet's existance.

Many verses in Koraan hadn't been translated in a right way into English, thats why many thinks that these verses holds aggression to certain religions.

And like you said : faith is'nt faith if forced, its true, thats why we dont force anybody to get in Islam.

A part of our Beliefs : "Variety of religions is so acceptable in Islam"

So we believe that we cannot force everyone to get into Islam.

Unfortunately, Politics and media nowadays are the ones who ruined the Image of our religion.
 
earthworm said:
Are you serious ?..ever ?
The last thing any sane man wants is to have anyone "rule" him...particularly a Muslim.
These are good reasons for the popularity of Zen-Buddhism..
I consider myself to be a Deist.....to hell with religion..
Click to expand...

No, I was actually just laughing at that particular view that someone even think thats remotely possible, even in their fantasy.

I am independently moderate religious btw, since we are discussing our religious stands.
 
Ahmed Shaheen said:
Unfortunately, Politics and media nowadays are the ones who ruined the Image of our religion.
Click to expand...

It is perfectly understandable to me for a country or state with a majority of Muslims to prohibit the pornography of disrespecting Islam or the prophet, just like I would not care if our state established that people (John Edwards) talking to the dead for money is fraud; it is a long argument involving states rights and the reason why the word “Congress” is in our First Amendment. We are free in our homes but according to the wording of the Constitution we are not always free to be Digambara at a little league game, if you know what I mean and know what the Digambara are.

I fully understand the concept of when in Rome do as the Romans do. There is a social contract.

CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts

I understand that translations can be misinterpreted, as Atheists do with the Bible all the time; you and any of us can be misinterpreted:

“The fact that so few Moslems are around here makes you an opportunity I don’t want to pass up. Reading foreign translated words can be easily misinterpreted without someone there to help, I went over some of those quotes several times. Without help there is no way for me to know what a ‘companion of the flame‘ or ‘companion of the name‘ is.” (posted September 01, 2001 12:03 AM)

That was in the last post before 9/11 in a topic called "new colored forum please," which was in response to a topic started by me called “Colored Forum” in a religion forum due to being unable to post verses in a topic on the Taliban. No answers followed. Such an event and the total lack of instruction is not very conductive to us understanding whether we can trust that Muslims truly have no designs to subject us to humiliation.

You said: “Unfortunately, Politics and media nowadays are the ones who ruined the Image of our religion.”

Unclear communications from those who can read the Books can do that too. And simply running away and not confronting people with what Muslims believe to be the truth can only let the bad image spread.

Such a sentence as yours in a topic about Islam’s main goal, and not about society (your government), easily looks like you are saying Islam restricts free of speech and does not allow the spread of ideas:

“But there is no problem as long as they dont show hatred or spread their Ideas among society.”

To get a response, a defense, I sometimes will be rude, crude, and socially unattractive. Some people cannot handle that. I applaud you for sticking around to explain things to us.
 
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Ahmed Shaheen said:
Thanks GOD you admit it.
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Some people in the West do not understand their own Constitution. I used to live in a dry county, but now some would claim that is un-American.

Republics are not simply meant to exist for picking state flowers, they are there as a Christian understanding of the Golden Rule, that majorities are different and want different cultural states:

“The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and on application of the legislature, or of the executive (when the legislature cannot be convened) against domestic violence.” LII: Constitution

Your majority may not want to see hot babes topless at the beach, squirming their cute little thong butts in your face, with lipstick to imitate the blood aroused hole, just begging for us to grab their hair and thrust, but mine may find it okay for women to strut like baboons for lust in our hearts leading to thinking of them as sex objects; which majority is right?

“But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.” (Leviticus 19:34)

From the point of view of the Golden Rule in politics between nations, “Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets,” it could be asked, “why should our majority government respect your majority government when your majority government will not respect mine or others?“

We only become arrogant and disrespect the Golden Rule when we demand all states ruled by a majority must conform to what we think is right. Such judgments should be left to God.

Majority rule does not though absolve nations of their crimes, such as supporting international terrorism or repression of their people (such as by Iraq). If you want to own the land you must police it or someone else will.

“Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: ‘But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)’; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.” World Islamic Front Statement Urging Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders

That is incompatible with the Golden Rule, and the fact that the majority of Muslims have failed to capture them does not make me want to accuse Bush of incompetence in a hostile swamp.

It is convenient and worthy of a religion bent on conquest to accuse other nations of killing innocent people when they are trying to stop corrupt mischiefmakers. And sneaky to expect foreigners to separate out all the innocent from the guilty, when they do not know the lay of the land or cannot tell a woman or child from a veiled salami bomb (due to corruption), sacrificing innocent troops in door to door fighting. Especially, when the so-called innocent nation is NOT sacrificing innocent troops and police in policing mischiefmakers in the land they already possess and wish to maintain ownership. Convenient and sneaky...
 
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Ahmed Shaheen said:
Many of them Avoid getting into religious conversations, thats where I got my Idea .
But there is no problem as long as they dont show hatred or spread their Ideas among society.
Click to expand...

I disagree. Most atheists I know are eager to hop into a religious debate.
 
EgoffTib said:
I disagree. Most atheists I know are eager to hop into a religious debate.
Click to expand...

Ok, here is my story :

I Had a smart friend his name is Haitham, he got the first above all high schools the last year with 99.7% .

Anyway this isnt the issue,,,, once he came and introduced me to a friend "Abdul-Aziz" and told me that his new friend is his soul-twin, he thinks in everything like how he (Haitham) thinks, He is smart like how he is, he is well-cultured like him .... I told him : "then Iam history after your new friend" and both of us laughed..

I dont see Haitham too much because we are'nt in the same College...
Once he came to my work place asking me for a time-out, his face was a mix of worry and confusion.. we went to have dinner and then he told me that his soul-twin "Abdul-Aziz" is Athiest, and he dont know what to do.

"Abdul-Aziz" was in vacation to Vienna, He told Haitham before he travels to think about their relationship subject until he comes.

I talked then to Abdul-Aziz and he told me that he wont get in to any Discussions about religion, "Because I'll quit" he told me .

I hadn't talked to Haitham till now, but I know that he is that kind of people who would never start with a breakup for any reason.

But what did he meant by "I'll quit" ?

Actually I took it as a joke and laughed .
 
I suspect a Muslim initiated the poll because the obvious answer is not in the options....."all of the above".
 
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Ahmed Shaheen said:
Ok, here is my story :

I Had a smart friend his name is Haitham, he got the first above all high schools the last year with 99.7% .

Anyway this isnt the issue,,,, once he came and introduced me to a friend "Abdul-Aziz" and told me that his new friend is his soul-twin, he thinks in everything like how he (Haitham) thinks, He is smart like how he is, he is well-cultured like him .... I told him : "then Iam history after your new friend" and both of us laughed..

I dont see Haitham too much because we are'nt in the same College...
Once he came to my work place asking me for a time-out, his face was a mix of worry and confusion.. we went to have dinner and then he told me that his soul-twin "Abdul-Aziz" is Athiest, and he dont know what to do.

"Abdul-Aziz" was in vacation to Vienna, He told Haitham before he travels to think about their relationship subject until he comes.

I talked then to Abdul-Aziz and he told me that he wont get in to any Discussions about religion, "Because I'll quit" he told me .

I hadn't talked to Haitham till now, but I know that he is that kind of people who would never start with a breakup for any reason.

But what did he meant by "I'll quit" ?

Actually I took it as a joke and laughed .
Click to expand...

:doh

So made an assumption about all atheists based on one? He probably said "I'll quit" because debating creationists is pointless. No amount of facts can sway their beliefs.
 
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