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Israel/Palestine: Will this work?

Will this work?

  • Total voters
    12
Peace, of course, would require two sides desirous of coexistence. We’re one short. Palestinians do not seek to coexist with Israel. They seek to destroy Israel. But that may have to await their annihilation of each other, with Fatah and its fellow thug, Hamas, now locked in a struggle for control.

Hamas is proudly unyielding in its announced intention to vaporize the “Zionist entity.” By contrast, Fatah is cagier but no less determined. In the Arafat style, it feints every now and again toward negotiation with Israel. There is, after all, a trough of Western billions for any Palestinian leadership willing to affect aspiration toward the Clinton/Bush nirvana: two states, Israel and “Palestine,” living side-by-side in peace. Fatah needs those billions to keep its operatives loyal. Historically, it is a pervasively corrupt, creakily socialist outfit — a former Soviet client averse to elementary economic development.

But the act is just that, an act. The Fatah constitution still calls for the “eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence[,]” through an “armed revolution” which is to be the “decisive factor in the liberation fight and in uprooting the Zionist existence” — a revolution that “will not cease unless the Zionist state is demolished and Palestine is completely liberated.”

Consistent with this overarching plan, the U.S.-led “peace process” has been a 14-year sham — hence, the intervening Intifada and related terror gambits. Fatah may occasionally say it will live with Israel, but it has demonstrated, repeatedly, that it will never agree to the commonsense requirements of coexistence: It not only demands land and Jerusalem as its national capital; it refuses to disarm terrorist militias and insists on a refugee “right of return” — an influx of well over a million Palestinians that would effectively destroy the tiny Jewish state from within.

By our State Department’s lights, this qualifies as “moderation” — perhaps because Hamas’s direct approach is bereft of diplomatic nicety, while the savvier Fatah seems willing to attrit Israel to death. (Such new gloss on the withering Bush Doctrine is also on display in Baghdad, where the administration now regularly consults with Abdul Azziz al-Hakim, or, as the White House describes him, “His Eminence,” leader of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq — a creation of Iran).
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Not One Thin Dime for Abbas by Andrew C. McCarthy on National Review Online
 
Kandahar said:
The main part of Russia is separated from Kaliningrad by land. The main part of the United States is separated from Alaska by land.
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Again, they are separated by land and. West Bank is separated solely by land from Gaza. This means to travel from one to the other you must pass through another country's land. This is not the case with Alaska and Kaliningrad.
 
Goobieman said:
Here’s my proposal for solving the Israel-Palestinian issue:

-Israel completely withdraws from Gaza and the West Bank.
-The West Bank then becomes the state of Palestine
-Gaza can choose to become part of Egypt, part of Palestine, or its own state.
-Israel will secure her borders as she sees fit
-Palestine will secure her borders as she sees fit
-Israel will hold Palestine/Gaza responsible for the security of their borders with Israel, and consider any attack, terrorist or otherwise, from across those borders to be an act of war upon Israel from Palestine, giving Israel the right to act in that regard as she sees fit.

Will this work?
If not, why not?
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Hey you can be moderate sometimes.

Yes I think it could work.

The condition is that both parts do not over-react at every provocation. During the first months, there could be a rocket fired by an extremist. Israel should kill him but with a sniper gun or something like that. If they answer by bombing Gaza again there will never be peace.

Oh also, there should be no blockade around Gaza.
 
I don't think it will work because it leaves Israel with difficult boundaries to defend and radicals in control of land that it can use to launch rockets at Israel. Your plan can say that any rockets will be an act of war and Israel can respond accordingly, however, the international community will NOT see it that way.

Also, the Palestinians rejected pretty much this proposal back in the 1990s. Hamas would NEVER accept it, though Abbas may very well. There are radical elements in the Palestinian community who will accept nothing less than the complete extermination of the State of Israel.
 
ludahai said:
I don't think it will work because it leaves Israel with difficult boundaries to defend and radicals in control of land that it can use to launch rockets at Israel. Your plan can say that any rockets will be an act of war and Israel can respond accordingly, however, the international community will NOT see it that way.

Also, the Palestinians rejected pretty much this proposal back in the 1990s. Hamas would NEVER accept it, though Abbas may very well. There are radical elements in the Palestinian community who will accept nothing less than the complete extermination of the State of Israel.
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76% of the Palestinians favor the 2 states solution (= what Goobieman proposes)
 
Kandahar said:
Who is "Gaza"? The illegitimate Hamas regime? Mahmoud Abbas? A referendum of the voters? What if they decide to become part of Egypt, and Egypt doesn't want them? What if Hamas chooses "None of the above"?
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I refer to the people of Gaza. They decide what they want to do.
If Egypt doesnt want them, they then decide on something else.

This third bullet point seems to contradict the first two.
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Not so much -- I may not have been clear.

-Israel will secure her borders as she sees fit
-Palestine will secure her borders as she sees fit
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This means that each state will, as its sovereign right, decide who/what is allowed to pass thru its own borders. But, with all rights come responsibilties, so...

-Israel will hold Palestine/Gaza responsible for the security of their borders with Israel, and consider any attack, terrorist or otherwise, from across those borders to be an act of war upon Israel from Palestine, giving Israel the right to act in that regard as she sees fit.
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This means that Israel will hold Palestine acountable for not securing its borders against attack from Palestine against Israel. Every state has the reposnibility to make sure that people dont make attacks on other states across their borders on other states; shold Palestine allow such attacks, they will be considere3d an act of war. This incents Palestine to take border security seriously, and addresses Israel's legitimate security concerns

Not anytime in the near future. I think it's possible for Israel to negotiate a peace settlement with Fatah, Lebanon, and Syria which would result in an independent Palestine in the West Bank. But as long as Hamas remains in control of Gaza (or even as long as Hamas has significant support in Gaza), Gaza will necessarily be excluded from any peace settlement.
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Both territories could gain statehood independently of the other -- its not necessarily an all/nothng proposition.
 
shiznit770 said:
Azerbaijan and Armenia appear to be the only ones in a similar situation (geographically). Russia and the US are geographically separated, but by oceans, not just land. Thanks for responding.
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Admit it:
When you asked the question, you didnt have a clue that "The US" was the most obvious answer.
 
shiznit770 said:
Again, they are separated by land and. West Bank is separated solely by land from Gaza. This means to travel from one to the other you must pass through another country's land. This is not the case with Alaska and Kaliningrad.
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I ask again:
So what?
 
ludahai said:
I don't think it will work because it leaves Israel with difficult boundaries to defend and radicals in control of land that it can use to launch rockets at Israel. Your plan can say that any rockets will be an act of war and Israel can respond accordingly, however, the international community will NOT see it that way.
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If the North Koreans were to rocket South Korea (or japan)...
If China were to rocket Taiwan...
If the US were to rocket Iran...
All acts of war, yes?

Palestine rocketing Israel is different? How?

Also, the Palestinians rejected pretty much this proposal back in the 1990s. Hamas would NEVER accept it, though Abbas may very well. There are radical elements in the Palestinian community who will accept nothing less than the complete extermination of the State of Israel.
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Indeed.
Describes the problem quite well.
 
Goobieman said:
Admit it:
When you asked the question, you didnt have a clue that "The US" was the most obvious answer.
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Wow, maybe because when I thought of geographically separated I assumed you were smart enough to grasp the meaning behind the wording. Instead you'd rather beat an interpretation of wording to death. Admit it, you're just being an ass.
 
shiznit770 said:
Wow, maybe because when I thought of geographically separated I assumed you were smart enough to grasp the meaning behind the wording. Instead you'd rather beat an interpretation of wording to death. Admit it, you're just being an ass.
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Ah.
So, you're changing the goalposts in order to avoid looking like a moron.
You'll need to move them much, much farther.
 
Goobieman said:
Ah.
So, you're changing the goalposts in order to avoid looking like a moron.
You'll need to move them much, much farther.
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One of your favorite lines. So it doesn't matter what I say, only what you think I said. I believe you are in danger of being a hypocrite here Goobieman.
 
shiznit770 said:
One of your favorite lines. So it doesn't matter what I say, only what you think I said. I believe you are in danger of being a hypocrite here Goobieman.
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I see that you -still- don't have a point.
No surprise.
 
-Israel will hold Palestine/Gaza responsible for the security of their borders with Israel, and consider any attack, terrorist or otherwise, from across those borders to be an act of war upon Israel from Palestine, giving Israel the right to act in that regard as she sees fit.
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That would be the same as what's going on right now.

A few dickheads would start launching rockets from within the border and bam, another conflict.



Let them fight it out. What else can we really do?
 
Goobieman said:
So... if the solution as mentioned and amended is applied, what do you suppose Israel will do to violate it?
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I think both sides will violate it so long as extremists on either side exist. That's the one thing about religious fundamentalism, it has no room for compromise.
 
shiznit770 said:
Wow, maybe because when I thought of geographically separated I assumed you were smart enough to grasp the meaning behind the wording. Instead you'd rather beat an interpretation of wording to death. Admit it, you're just being an ass.
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Azerbaijan? So, is your proposal to cut Israel into two parts then so there can be a single, contiguous Palestinian state?
 
ludahai said:
Azerbaijan? So, is your proposal to cut Israel into two parts then so there can be a single, contiguous Palestinian state?
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It will never happen, but it would solve a lot of problems considering the two parts are not operating under one government.
 
ludahai said:
Azerbaijan? So, is your proposal to cut Israel into two parts then so there can be a single, contiguous Palestinian state?
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Well sure!
Its unacceptabe for Palestine to be cut in two -- but Israel?
Well, -that's- OK -- I mean, its just Israel.
 
shiznit770 said:
It will never happen, but it would solve a lot of problems considering the two parts are not operating under one government.
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SO, it is ok to cut Israel into two parts, but not have a divided Palestinian state? How about TWO Palestinian states - which is about what they are right now anyway.
 
ludahai said:
SO, it is ok to cut Israel into two parts, but not have a divided Palestinian state? How about TWO Palestinian states - which is about what they are right now anyway.
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I didn't read his post well, in my super peaceful fantasy world they would both be continuous states, even if this meant uprooting a large number of people. Since Gaza's mostly full of refuge camps, they might as well all be moved to West Bank and expand the West Bank accordingly.
 
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