What Are Our Reasons That We Choose Not To Use Illegal Drugs

Tucker Case said:

They have the same affect on the brain, but they are chemically different substances.

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Technically, they are different molecules: cocaine (crack) versus cocaine hydrochloride (powered cocaine.) Frankly, though, the difference is not the core molecule, it is the salt form or lack thereof.

Tucker Case said:

It refers to the basement. What happens there, stays there.

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You just refered to the "basement", out of the basement.

That's a point!

Blackdog said:

I do not agree at all.

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Whether you agree is immaterial.

MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia: Cocaine withdrawal

"Cocaine withdrawal often has no visible physical symptoms like the vomiting and shaking that accompanies the withdrawal from heroin or alcohol."

Ironically you yourself use this source for a different purpose, yet you seem to ignore the other evidence it gives. I find that sad, really.

A member of your family? Well that is unbiased and completely scientific. I stand corrected.

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More than that.

Cocaine withdrawal symptoms include but are not limited to:

agitation
depression
intense craving for the drug*
extreme fatigue*
anxiety
angry outbursts
lack of motivation
nausea/vomiting*
shaking*
irritability
muscle pain*
disturbed sleep

Looks like allot of physical symptoms? It also says "not limited to."

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Let me reiterate from that government website,

"Cocaine withdrawal often has no visible physical symptoms like the vomiting and shaking that accompanies the withdrawal from heroin or alcohol."

This is common knowledge. you've found one source that claims vomitting occurs, yet I've already posted two that spoke about how there are few physical symptoms for cocaine withdrawal.

Then your experience is just a tad off.

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Do you have any SCIENTIFIC data to back up your assertion that I'm wrong, or will you continue to repeat it in the hopes that one day it will be true?

I am not talking about snorting cocaine, I said main lining it. It is almost a duplicate of smoking crack. I know for a fact as I have done all three.

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Bully for you. Why do you assume I haven't?

Why don't you post some scientific data saying they are chemically different?

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I did. I mentioned Methylecgonidine.

Why is it they can test for crack and differentiate between it and normal cocaine use?

If you can't look up your own information, even though I've already pointed the way by naming the chemical difference, I have to assume you are incapable of having an informed opinion.

But since you are incapable of looking it up on your own, and you want to pretend I'm not being scientific, here's a real sceintific study (the only one sourced by anyone so far, regarding the fact.

ACS Publications - Cookie absent

Blackdog said:

Technically, they are different molecules: cocaine (crack) versus cocaine hydrochloride (powered cocaine.) Frankly, though, the difference is not the core molecule, it is the salt form or lack thereof.

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Never said it was the core molecule. Thank you for proving me right about teh chemical differences.

Speaking about "crack", that drug is a drag.

The high lasts as long as you inhale.

And you're always chasing the first hit.

And inevitably, you whind up with nothing to chase.

BBC NEWS | Health | Warning over 'third-hand smoke'

Warning over 'third-hand smoke'


I just wanted to add that article to the discussion. IN my opinion still, the total social and economic repercussions of both cigarettes and alcohol are far worse than any of the heavier drugs. IT can be discussed in length which drugs are worst "per capita"/individually, but cigarettes and alcohol sure aren't healthy alternative to "illegal drugs.

Tucker Case said:

Whether you agree is immaterial.

MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia: Cocaine withdrawal

"Cocaine withdrawal often has no visible physical symptoms like the vomiting and shaking that accompanies the withdrawal from heroin or alcohol."

Ironically you yourself use this source for a different purpose, yet you seem to ignore the other evidence it gives. I find that sad, really.

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Being a little disingenuous here aren't you? Notice the part in red.

It says "often" not that it does not. Then you see the list of physical symptoms and then you say it is sad?

Tucker Case said:

More than that.

Let me reiterate from that government website,

"Cocaine withdrawal often has no visible physical symptoms like the vomiting and shaking that accompanies the withdrawal from heroin or alcohol."

This is common knowledge.

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You again seem to be mistaking "often" for never. I said I think they are the same, and they are. They have exactly the same synptoms for some.

I already stated it is different for different people. You also seem to be ignoring that.

Tucker Case said:

you've found one source that claims vomitting occurs, yet I've already posted two that spoke about how there are few physical symptoms for cocaine withdrawal.

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No you posted two from the same source.

Symptoms of Cocaine withdrawal - WrongDiagnosis.com

They also include vomiting and other "physical" symptoms.

Tucker Case said:

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/c/cocaine_withdrawal/symptoms.htmDo you have any SCIENTIFIC data to back up your assertion that I'm wrong, or will you continue to repeat it in the hopes that one day it will be true?

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I have already pointed out with the data you are indeed wrong.

Tucker Case said:

Bully for you. Why do you assume I haven't?

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You would have known the difference between the two is only in the way you take it.

Tucker Case said:

I did. I mentioned Methylecgonidine

Why is it they can test for crack and differentiate between it and normal cocaine use?

If you can't look up your own information, even though I've already pointed the way by naming the chemical difference, I have to assume you are incapable of having an informed opinion.

But since you are incapable of looking it up on your own, and you want to pretend I'm not being scientific, here's a real sceintific study (the only one sourced by anyone so far, regarding the fact.

ACS Publications - Cookie absent

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Now you are just ignoring what I said.

Nice link by the way. "Cookie absent."

Methylecgonidine is produced during the actual heating process. If you were to crush the rock and snort it, no Methylecgonidine could be found for drug testing. The high would take a hell of a lot longer to hit, but it would.

Maximus Zeebra said:

LEO? What is that? I can mention CEO.. A lot of them use cocaine and still have success. I hardly believe there are any CEOs who use crack. Half of hollywood use cocaine on a regular basis, only Amy Whitehouse use crack, and you see how she ended up. Completely wrecked, and she is not using heroin, she is using crack.

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I am not talking about simple snorting of cocaine. I am talking about injecting it into your bloodstream. Taken that way it is every bit as bad as crack as far as addiction goes.

Today smoking has replaced mainlining for the most part. Crack is easier and the "high" is about the same. It still goes on though.

Blackdog said:

I am not talking about simple snorting of cocaine. I am talking about injecting it into your bloodstream. Taken that way it is every bit as bad as crack as far as addiction goes.

Today smoking has replaced mainlining for the most part. Crack is easier and the "high" is about the same. It still goes on though.

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I thought after marijuana type drugs, cocaine(powder) was the most frequently used drug in the US. Is this untrue?

Maximus Zeebra said:

I thought after marijuana type drugs, cocaine(powder) was the most frequently used drug in the US. Is this untrue?

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According to the United States Dept of Justice's Bureau of Justice Statistics website, it's marijuana, followed by cocaine in all forms, including rock.

1069 said:

According to the United States Dept of Justice's Bureau of Justice Statistics website, it's marijuana, followed by cocaine in all forms, including rock.

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Hmm.. What about if you split the two as separate drugs, any statistics for that?
And also which of them is the most used?

Maximus Zeebra said:

I thought after marijuana type drugs, cocaine(powder) was the most frequently used drug in the US. Is this untrue?

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I have no idea. You could find out with an on-line search I am certain.

Maximus Zeebra said:

Hmm.. What about if you split the two as separate drugs, any statistics for that?
And also which of them is the most used?

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No. The statistic says "Cocaine/crack".
It doesn't break it down further, and I'm not sure I'd trust any information on this subject that didn't come from a gov.org site.

There might, of course, be other federal agencies that keep track of such things, which might break it down further.
You could search around.

Have you ever tried to watch a movie with a crack whore?

You come home after a hard days work, sit back in your easy chair, put on a good flick, start to relax and get into the movie, when, out of the corner of your eye, is this constant, perpetual, movement. Tweaking. If she was a guy, she'd be polishing jewelry she got trashin', with a Dremel. But since she isn't, with no day job to give her reason to sleep at night, she just picks at the carpet in search of lost morsels. See's something, hits it with the lighter, "oh, that's not one", and goes back to scanning, picking, and doing everything but watching the god-damn movie!

Billo_Really said:

Have you ever tried to watch a movie with a crack whore?

You come home after a hard days work, sit back in your easy chair, put on a good flick, start to relax and get into the movie, when, out of the corner of your eye, is this constant, perpetual, movement. Tweaking. If she was a guy, she'd be polishing jewelry she got trashin', with a Dremel. But since she isn't, with no day job to give her reason to sleep at night, she just picks at the carpet in search of lost morsels. See's something, hits it with the lighter, "oh, that's not one", and goes back to scanning, picking, and doing everything but watching the god-damn movie!

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uhm you need to pick better movie dates...... :doh

Blackdog said:

Being a little disingenuous here aren't you? Notice the part in red.

It says "often" not that it does not. Then you see the list of physical symptoms and then you say it is sad?

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Often does not mean never, and I NEVER said it did. Often does not mean Occasionally either. It means somethig very similar to Usually or Typically, which are the words I used. YOU are being disingenuous by claiming they are similar because OFTEN there are no physical symptoms. With herion withdrawal there are ALWAYS physical symptoms. ALWAYS.

You again seem to be mistaking "often" for never. I said I think they are the same, and they are. They have exactly the same synptoms for some.

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They do not have the exact same symptoms at all. You are giving an opinion that is not substantiated by fact. TYhey OCCASIONALLY have the same symptoms, but OFTEN they DON'T.

I already stated it is different for different people. You also seem to be ignoring that.

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If one ALWAYS has physical symptoms, and the other OFTEN doesn't, the comparison should be the AVERAGE case, not the Extremes.

No you posted two from the same source.

Symptoms of Cocaine withdrawal - WrongDiagnosis.com

They also include vomiting and other "physical" symptoms.

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Cocaine: Withdrawal | Drug Abuse and Effects Summary

"Because of the lack of physical withdrawal symptoms, both medical professionals and the public long believed that cocaine was not an addicting drug. The cocaine epidemic of the 1980s led to greater concern about how cocaine affects users. Researchers studied the drug to determine whether cocaine use leads to dependence and withdrawal."

Cocaine withdrawal and crack addiction withdrawal symptoms

"Cocaine withdrawal is not as physically evident as withdrawal from other highly addictive drugs: there are often no visible physical symptoms like the vomiting and shaking that accompanies heroin withdrawal or the seizures and delusions that can follow alcohol withdrawal"

Cocaine Withdrawal

"Cocaine withdrawal often has no visible physical symptoms such as the vomiting and shaking that one sees during the withdrawal from heroin or alcohol."

Cocaine Withdrawal Symptoms Less Daunting Than Previously Thought

"Withdrawal from cocaine is no picnic, but a study by a researcher at the University at Buffalo has shown that it may not involve the wrenching ups and downs and intense cravings that specialists in the field have considered the norm."


That last one was tossed in to give scientific evidence of my claims that Heroin withdrawal is worse.

Can you find ANYTHING at all that claims that it is COMMON for cocaine withdrawal to be similar to heroin withdrawal?

Would you like more sources? I can do this all day.

I have already pointed out with the data you are indeed wrong.

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No, you haven't. You have shown that there are SOME symptoms that OCCASIONALLY happen that are similar, but you have not shown that the two withdrawals are similar ON AVERAGE. You are comapring the extreme case of cocaine withdrawal to the COMMON case of heroin withdrawal. That is intellectually dishonest. Compare the cases that OFTEN happen in each withdrawal to each other and you will be on the right track.

I never said that cocaine withdrawal couldn't be just as bad for one individual than heroin withdrawal is for another individual. I used the word "Typically" when I said it typically doesn't have physical symptoms. It OFTEN doesn't have any physical symptoms.

You would have known the difference between the two is only in the way you take it.

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What you injest is different. This is BECAUSE of the way you take it. Just as Chewing Tobacco and Smoking toibacco are different drugs in teh end because they have different effects. Cigarrettes are way way worse for a person.

Now you are just ignoring what I said.

Nice link by the way. "Cookie absent."

Methylecgonidine is produced during the actual heating process. If you were to crush the rock and snort it, no Methylecgonidine could be found for drug testing. The high would take a hell of a lot longer to hit, but it would.

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The DRUG is what is injested, not what remains outside of the body. If a person crushes up a crack rock and snorts it, they are doing cocaine. If they smoke it, they are doing crack.

Just as with ALL chemical reactions, chemicals are produces. Just as smoking tobacco is injecting a different drug as chewing it is. What is injested is the issue, not what is purchased.

Blackdog, Disregard the snippyness in my comments. It's a serious debate and some of what I'm adding is superfluous and unneccesarry.

Let me clarify my point. I'm talking about the actual drug as it is injested beign different, not the effects. My reasons for saying crack is worse than cocaine, is like how I would say cigarettes are typically way way worse than chewing tobacco.

They are chemically the same, or quite simmilar, prior to ingestion, but during they are chemically different at the point of ingestion. They do have identical effects on the brain, but the extra chemicals in the crack smoke make it more dangerous.

When I say they are chemically different, I'm referring to the differences in the smoke and the powder, not the rock and the powder. That is the basis of my comparison.

I can see your point regarding the actual rock and the powder, they are for all intents and puproses, the same.

I did a poor job explaining my point, and for that I apologize.

To calrify further, the "drug" part of a cigarette, IMO, is not the raw tobacco itself, but the smoke that is ingested. I can see how my definition could be confusing, becaus eI never clarified that the actual product ingested is my definition of the drug.

As far as Cocaine withdrawal vs. Heroin withdrawal, I'm not saying that in some instances, cocaine withdrawal cannot be just as bad, I was speaking about the average cocaine withdrawal vs. the average heroin withdrawal.

If one compares the extreme cases, they are indeed similar. If one compares the average case, they are not very similar.

I would say cocaine withdrawal CAN BE just as bad as heroin withdrawal, but typically, heroin withdrawal is far worse.

Tucker Case said:

Often does not mean never, and I NEVER said it did. Often does not mean Occasionally either. It means somethig very similar to Usually or Typically, which are the words I used. YOU are being disingenuous by claiming they are similar because OFTEN there are no physical symptoms. With herion withdrawal there are ALWAYS physical symptoms. ALWAYS.

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Yes heroin does have physical symptoms all the time. I never said it did not? I said cocaine is just as bad and in some cases has physical withdrawals the same or similar to heroin.

Tucker Case said:

They do not have the exact same symptoms at all. You are giving an opinion that is not substantiated by fact. TYhey OCCASIONALLY have the same symptoms, but OFTEN they DON'T.

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I never said it was "often" only that they can be.

Tucker Case said:

If one ALWAYS has physical symptoms, and the other OFTEN doesn't, the comparison should be the AVERAGE case, not the Extremes.

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That is subjective at best.

Tucker Case said:

Cocaine: Withdrawal | Drug Abuse and Effects Summary

"Because of the lack of physical withdrawal symptoms, both medical professionals and the public long believed that cocaine was not an addicting drug. The cocaine epidemic of the 1980s led to greater concern about how cocaine affects users. Researchers studied the drug to determine whether cocaine use leads to dependence and withdrawal."

Cocaine withdrawal and crack addiction withdrawal symptoms

"Cocaine withdrawal is not as physically evident as withdrawal from other highly addictive drugs: there are often no visible physical symptoms like the vomiting and shaking that accompanies heroin withdrawal or the seizures and delusions that can follow alcohol withdrawal"

Cocaine Withdrawal

"Cocaine withdrawal often has no visible physical symptoms such as the vomiting and shaking that one sees during the withdrawal from heroin or alcohol."

Cocaine Withdrawal Symptoms Less Daunting Than Previously Thought

"Withdrawal from cocaine is no picnic, but a study by a researcher at the University at Buffalo has shown that it may not involve the wrenching ups and downs and intense cravings that specialists in the field have considered the norm."

That last one was tossed in to give scientific evidence of my claims that Heroin withdrawal is worse.

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I don't believe it is because cocaine is considered the most addictive or one of the most addictive drugs. Physical symptoms aside, it is harder to get off of.

"The frightening truth is that the drug is more addictive than heroin and produces a shorter high which means users are quickly back out on the streets desperately trying to fund their next hit." - A drug that's more addictive than heroin | Evening Chronicle (Newcastle, England) | Find Articles at BNET

"During the late phase of withdrawal (>3 weeks), reinstatement of cocaine seeking by quinpirole was still apparent, but less robust. In heroin-trained rats, increases of responding were no longer observed." - Relapse to Cocaine- and Heroin-Seeking Behavior Mediated by Dopamine D2 Receptors Is Time-Dependent and Associated with Behavioral Sensitization

Tucker Case said:

Can you find ANYTHING at all that claims that it is COMMON for cocaine withdrawal to be similar to heroin withdrawal?

Would you like more sources? I can do this all day.

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I never said it was "common" only that it can be. I am still correct.

Tucker Case said:

No, you haven't. You have shown that there are SOME symptoms that OCCASIONALLY happen that are similar, but you have not shown that the two withdrawals are similar ON AVERAGE.

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I never said anything about averages, I said in some people. I feel what is highlighted in red sums up and proves my position.

Tucker Case said:

You are comapring the extreme case of cocaine withdrawal to the COMMON case of heroin withdrawal. That is intellectually dishonest. Compare the cases that OFTEN happen in each withdrawal to each other and you will be on the right track.

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No it is not dishonest. You seem to think that the physical withdrawals are somehow worse than the mental withdrawals. I don't believe that at all. For some people you have both. I have shown the experiment with rats on cocaine still having symptoms while nothing from heroin after the same amount of time.

Tucker Case said:

I never said that cocaine withdrawal couldn't be just as bad for one individual than heroin withdrawal is for another individual. I used the word "Typically" when I said it typically doesn't have physical symptoms. It OFTEN doesn't have any physical symptoms.

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Again you are talking about the "physical" symptoms only. The physical withdrawals are not a litmus test for the severity of addiction or withdrawals.

Tucker Case said:

What you injest is different. This is BECAUSE of the way you take it. Just as Chewing Tobacco and Smoking toibacco are different drugs in teh end because they have different effects. Cigarrettes are way way worse for a person.

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All tobacco, including chewing tobacco, contains nicotine, which is addictive.

The amount of nicotine absorbed from chewing tobacco is 3 to 4 times the amount delivered by a cigarette. Chewing tobacco users increase their risk for cancer of the oral cavity. Oral cancer can include cancer of the lip, tongue, cheeks, gums, and the floor and roof of the mouth. People who use "chew" for a long time have a much greater risk for cancer of the cheek and gum than people who do not use chewing tobacco.

They are both just as dangerous.

"Researchers found that compared with cigarette smokers, adults who used chewing tobacco appeared to have greater exposure to a substance called NNK, one of the prime carcinogens in tobacco. In laboratory animals, NNK has been found to cause cancer of the lung, pancreas, liver and nasal mucosa." - Study shows chewing tobacco worse than smoking | HEALTH

The study is from 2007.

Tucker Case said:

The DRUG is what is injested, not what remains outside of the body. If a person crushes up a crack rock and snorts it, they are doing cocaine. If they smoke it, they are doing crack.

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You are still leaving out injecting it directly into your blood stream. What would that be?

I am not talking about snorting it. I have been from the beginning comparing it with smoking and injecting.

Tucker Case said:

Just as with ALL chemical reactions, chemicals are produces. Just as smoking tobacco is injecting a different drug as chewing it is.

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Nicotine is nicotine is nicotine. Smoke it, chew it same addictive property's. The risks of different types are not the same, but the drug is the same drug.

Tucker Case said:

What is injested is the issue, not what is purchased.

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???

Tucker Case said:

Blackdog, Disregard the snippyness in my comments. It's a serious debate and some of what I'm adding is superfluous and unneccesarry.

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We all do it at some point. As long as you do not take it personally we are all good. :2razz:

Tucker Case said:

Let me clarify my point. I'm talking about the actual drug as it is injested beign different, not the effects. My reasons for saying crack is worse than cocaine, is like how I would say cigarettes are typically way way worse than chewing tobacco.

They are chemically the same, or quite simmilar, prior to ingestion, but during they are chemically different at the point of ingestion. They do have identical effects on the brain, but the extra chemicals in the crack smoke make it more dangerous.

When I say they are chemically different, I'm referring to the differences in the smoke and the powder, not the rock and the powder. That is the basis of my comparison.

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That (to me) is a strange comparison but OK, I can understand and agree with that.

Tucker Case said:

I can see your point regarding the actual rock and the powder, they are for all intents and puproses, the same.

I did a poor job explaining my point, and for that I apologize.

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No need to apologies, just a fun debate is all.

Tucker Case said:

To calrify further, the "drug" part of a cigarette, IMO, is not the raw tobacco itself, but the smoke that is ingested. I can see how my definition could be confusing, becaus eI never clarified that the actual product ingested is my definition of the drug.

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Completely different from mine (or the dictionary ) but I get your point.

Tucker Case said:

As far as Cocaine withdrawal vs. Heroin withdrawal, I'm not saying that in some instances, cocaine withdrawal cannot be just as bad, I was speaking about the average cocaine withdrawal vs. the average heroin withdrawal.

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I don't agree only because I think the mental addiction is worse in other ways. So I think we can agree to disagree as that is pretty much subjective.

Tucker Case said:

If one compares the extreme cases, they are indeed similar. If one compares the average case, they are not very similar.

I would say cocaine withdrawal CAN BE just as bad as heroin withdrawal, but typically, heroin withdrawal is far worse.

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Again I will agree to disagree due to the subjective nature of physical vs mental withdrawals.

Dont we all just agree that crack is worse than cocaine? Thats the important question here, not the chemical and such discussion and technicalities.

Blackdog said:

We all do it at some point. As long as you do not take it personally we are all good. :2razz:



That (to me) is a strange comparison but OK, I can understand and agree with that.



No need to apologies, just a fun debate is all.

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Cool, thanks. It is an interesting debate.

But I like to catch myself when I realize I'm wrong.

Completely different from mine (or the dictionary ) but I get your point.

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True. That's probably the cause of the confucsion. I basically made up a new definition. :doh

I don't agree only because I think the mental addiction is worse in other ways. So I think we can agree to disagree as that is pretty much subjective.

Again I will agree to disagree due to the subjective nature of physical vs mental withdrawals.

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True, again this is due to a lack of clarification on my part. We were speaking about two different things in both cases (what a drug is and what is "worse").

Admittedly, I wasn't really considering the mental effects in my determination of "worse", I was talking about the sheer physical agony, not the mental anguish. It is subjective, and I was making the assumption that you had the same subjective perspective as I do.

Clearly not the same.

I believe both have amazingly high relapse rates, but that study you showed in the previous post shows that cocaine has a longer period of the "compulsion" stage and aspect.

That is pretty compelling evidence for your case.

Maximus Zeebra said:

Dont we all just agree that crack is worse than cocaine? Thats the important question here, not the chemical and such discussion and technicalities.

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Seeing blackdog's view more clearly now, I think most would agree that smoking or injecting cocaine is worse than snorting it.

The same is true of Heroin.

All varients are probably a bad idea, though.

Maximus Zeebra said:

Dont we all just agree that crack is worse than cocaine? Thats the important question here, not the chemical and such discussion and technicalities.

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Ahhh...

No.

Blackdog said:

Ahhh...

No.

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So you think the addicts of cocaine are worse off and that cocaine have a worse effect on society than crack? And you think that people more easily can remain successful if they start using crack instead of cocaine?
You believe cocaine has a more dramatic negative effect on mind and body than crack? And you think cocaine is more addictive than crack?

Tucker Case said:

Seeing blackdog's view more clearly now, I think most would agree that smoking or injecting cocaine is worse than snorting it.

The same is true of Heroin.

All varients are probably a bad idea, though.

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Just wanted to throw in a quick BINGO! before anyone else tried to claim it.