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Is this a crime?

See OP: Have the US soldiers committed a crime?

  • Total voters
    30
shiznit770 said:
I see, so you cannot say that my judgment is wrong, only pull the claim that I'm "incompetent" out of your ass?
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Apparently, I gave you too much credit in thinking that you would understand the term "competent judge". I'll not be so generous in the future.

You may now continue to submit posts that do nothing to invalidate my assertions.
 
shiznit770 said:
If you lose your judgment when you enter combat, then maybe you aren't cut out for the job.
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fog_of_war-thumb.jpg
 
shiznit770 said:
I never said I did. I value human life more than some and would be ill suited to be in the military.
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I have to agree with Goobieman, not necessarily his tenor of response but the truth of his words, if you haven't served nor seen combat you're not qualified to pass judgment on those who have.

Additionally if you admit you're ill suited to be in the military (whatever that means as there are many reasons people are ill suited for service including being a convicted felon, asthmatic, incapable of meeting the standards, uneducated, etc.) and claim "religious convictions and morals" this in no way places you on higher ground but reads as if you're trying to position yourself there.

Yes, you are welcome to and I support your right to express your opinion. Even at the expense of offending others but remember those who have and are serving have done so to guarantee your right to do so. .
 
rsixing said:
I have to agree with Goobieman, not necessarily his tenor of response but the truth of his words, if you haven't served nor seen combat you're not qualified to pass judgment on those who have.

Additionally if you admit you're ill suited to be in the military (whatever that means as there are many reasons people are ill suited for service including being a convicted felon, asthmatic, incapable of meeting the standards, uneducated, etc.) and claim "religious convictions and morals" this in no way places you on higher ground but reads as if you're trying to position yourself there.

Yes, you are welcome to and I support your right to express your opinion. Even at the expense of offending others but remember those who have and are serving have done so to guarantee your right to do so. .
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This is the knee jerk reaction that leads me to believe combatants should be held to the same standards as the rest of us. The second anyone even hints that a soldier could act inappropriately in combat, their peers rush to their defense. You say I'm positioning myself at a moral high ground but really I'm just analyzing the situation from the rest of the world's position.

You also couldn't resist that last line of BS. "That marine who killed 49 civilians and 1 insurgent was ensuring my right to speak!"
 
shiznit770 said:
This is the knee jerk reaction that leads me to believe combatants should be held to the same standards as the rest of us.
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A hopelessly stupid idea.

The second anyone even hints that a soldier could act inappropriately in combat, their peers rush to their defense.
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No one has suggested this -- thus, you're arguing a strawman.

You say I'm positioning myself at a moral high ground but really I'm just analyzing the situation from the rest of the world's position.
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Another example of you presupposing facts that you have not shown to be anything other than your ignorant opinion -- No one in the rest of the world believes that soldiers in coimbat should be held to the same standards as civilians in the civilan world.

You also couldn't resist that last line of BS. "That marine who killed 49 civilians and 1 insurgent was ensuring my right to speak!"
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Never mind that it is true.
 
One word : Circumstance.

Soldiers can still be charged with reckless endangerment during combat.
 
shiznit770 said:
How is this true? Looks like another ignorant opinion with no factual support given by the Goobieman. :roll:
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LOL

You ignore the entiretly of my post (the part that tears your argument apart) and respond with this?

Pathetic.
 
Goobieman said:
LOL

You ignore the entiretly of my post (the part that tears your argument apart) and respond with this?

Pathetic.
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Let me set you straight, I dismissed it as your typical rabble. Since you seem to think you've "torn my argument apart" I'll spell it out for you.

A hopelessly stupid idea.
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Yeah, this isn't a pathetic response...

No one has suggested this -- thus, you're arguing a strawman.
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So tell me otherwise. You would never admit that a soldier could act inappropriately. Instead you continuously feed me the weenie line "you are not competent to judge them".

Another example of you presupposing facts that you have not shown to be anything other than your ignorant opinion -- No one in the rest of the world believes that soldiers in coimbat should be held to the same standards as civilians in the civilan world.
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Ahh, your other favorite line. "Presupposing facts that you have not shown to be anything other than your ignorant opinion". Are you sure you're not a bot Goobieman? I think 20% of your posts have this line.

So you see there was really nothing to respond to from your post! :2wave:
 
shiznit770 said:
Let me set you straight, I dismissed it as your typical rabble.
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Translation:
You really don't understand why you're wrong, and you're incapable of the intellectuall honesty necessary to even consider as much.

Yeah, this isn't a pathetic response...
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Consider the statement it referenced.

So tell me otherwise. You would never admit that a soldier could act inappropriately. Instead you continuously feed me the weenie line "you are not competent to judge them".
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Its not MY job to disprove your statements, its YOUR job to support them.

YOU stated that:
"The second anyone even hints that a soldier could act inappropriately in combat, their peers rush to their defense."
Support this statement, or admit that you are indeed arguing a strawman.

That said, nothing I have posted has ever implied that I do not believe it is possible for a soldier to act inappropriately. I defy you to show otherwise.

Ahh, your other favorite line. "Presupposing facts that you have not shown to be anything other than your ignorant opinion".
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Thats -exactly- what you've done.
Disagree?
Show that "the rest of thr world" holds the position that soldiers in combat should be held to the same standasrds a civilians in civilain life.

Now, lets see just how inane you can be in your next post...
 
bub said:
why? he's still responsible!

when you kill someone while driving your car, it's not a "crime" but you still have killed someone and depending on the circumstances you could spend several years in jail

=> if he could not have seen the civilians, or if it was very unlikely to hit them, or if he was under enemy fire and was trying to protect himself and has not seen them, then OK he should not be sued

but if it was obvious that there were civilians around the armed guy, he should not have opened fire
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There is "opening fire" and "returning fire". If you are being shot at by insurgents, you should return fire. If civilians in the area get killed, the crime was committed by the insurgents....
 
Goobieman said:
YOU stated that:
"The second anyone even hints that a soldier could act inappropriately in combat, their peers rush to their defense."
Support this statement, or admit that you are indeed arguing a strawman.

That said, nothing I have posted has ever implied that I do not believe it is possible for a soldier to act inappropriately. I defy you to show otherwise.
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Ahh I was waiting for this one. The old, "I haven't made even one assertion so I can't possibly be wrong." Seriously Goobieman, if you can't even make one concrete statement what is your purpose here? My obligation to explain everything to you will arise as soon as you voice your contending opinion. Until then, carry on. :2wave:
 
shiznit770 said:
Ahh I was waiting for this one. The old, "I haven't made even one assertion so I can't possibly be wrong."
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:rofl

Further proof that you know you're arguing a strawman, and that you were caught doing so.

Run along, son, and leave the adults to debate among themselves.
 
Goobieman said:
:rofl

Further proof that you know you're arguing a strawman, and that you were caught doing so.

Run along, son, and leave the adults to debate among themselves.
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:rofl
And the final poke, the maturity insult. Terribly ironic and always good for a laugh.
 
shiznit770 said:
:rofl
And the final poke, the maturity insult.
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There's no insult there, just an observation.

Disagree?

Note that you have repeatedly failed to actually address the points put to you.
 
shiznit770 said:
This is the knee jerk reaction that leads me to believe combatants should be held to the same standards as the rest of us.
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This is your first judgmental mistake. The 'combatants' you are claiming should be held to the same standard as the rest of you, they're held to a much higher standard in all areas of their life then you. All areas. So it is you that should be seeking to achieve higher standards in your life.

The second anyone even hints that a soldier could act inappropriately in combat, their peers rush to their defense.
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Check out one of my earlier responses to this thread to see my position on this subject rather then incorrectly assuming my position. http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/41549-crime-2.html#post1057860850

You say I'm positioning myself at a moral high ground but really I'm just analyzing the situation from the rest of the world's position.
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You have purposefully set yourself up to make yourself appear as if you and your judgment are superior in all ways to Goobieman and those in the military but read my words carefully and remember them: you are unqualified to pass judgment on any of them.

You also couldn't resist that last line of BS. "That marine who killed 49 civilians and 1 insurgent was ensuring my right to speak!"
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My words were not addressing this incident (and one I'm unaware of so please provide a link) so of that I am incapable of addressing. What I was stating and you are trying to poison with your misdirected claim, and be informed I base my position on 21 years of military service to my nation and to you. I fought, sweat, sacrificed, endured, and have lost much for the priviledge of serving my nation and its citizens so I was serious. We, past and present, military men and women have served to guarantee your rights and freedoms. Never forget that it was done for you, at great cost to others for you, and required you to do nothing.

Pride. Honor. Service. Integrity. Loyalty. Honesty. Respect. 7 traits of our military men and women.
 
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rsixing said:
This is your first judgmental mistake. The 'combatants' you are claiming should be held to the same standard as the rest of you, they're held to a much higher standard in all areas of their life then you. All areas. So it is you that should be seeking to achieve higher standards in your life.

Check out one of my earlier responses to this thread to see my position on this subject rather then incorrectly assuming my position. http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/41549-crime-2.html#post1057860850
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Your response did not address anything I said, you just responded with the blanket "you are unqualified to pass any judgment." To me this says that no situation, no matter how glaringly amoral, can be judged by me. Morals are morals, there is no special set for military combatants, just greater understanding for their actions and justification. If I incorrectly judged your opinion its because you did not seem to be interested in the topic Goobieman and I were discussing and instead generalized and dismissed me.

You have purposefully set yourself up to make yourself appear as if you and your judgment are superior in all ways to Goobieman and those in the military but read my words carefully and remember them: you are unqualified to pass judgment on any of them.
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Where did I say or imply that my judgment is superior to those in the military? Read closer and you see that my response was directed at actions of someone in a hypothetical situation. Again, read the thread, don't make generalizations and summarily dismiss me or you'll only further confirm your bias.

My words were not addressing this incident (and one I'm unaware of so please provide a link) so of that I am incapable of addressing. What I was stating and you are trying to poison with your misdirected claim, and be informed I base my position on 21 years of military service to my nation and to you. I fought, sweat, sacrificed, endured, and have lost much for the priviledge of serving my nation and its citizens so I was serious. We, past and present, military men and women have served to guarantee your rights and freedoms. Never forget that it was done for you, at great cost to others for you, and required you to do nothing.
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While I respect your service and recognize the position it has put our country in (#1 in the world), I also ask you to be informed and read the context of my statements.

Finally, a question for Goobieman. Why the hell would you make a thread titled "Is this a crime?" and then tell people they are not qualified to make an opinion?
 
shiznit770 said:
Your response did not address anything I said, you just responded with the blanket "you are unqualified to pass any judgment." To me this says that no situation, no matter how glaringly amoral, can be judged by me. Morals are morals, there is no special set for military combatants, just greater understanding for their actions and justification. If I incorrectly judged your opinion its because you did not seem to be interested in the topic Goobieman and I were discussing and instead generalized and dismissed me.
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A reaction to a knee jerk reaction does not make a position of sound judgment and this discussion has nothing to do with amorality.

I clearly stated my position. I supported Goobie's position, not necessarily the tenor, in that you are not qualified to pass judgment on the military and their conduct during combat based on the fact you have never served, you have never trained, and you have never fought. Mine is a very sound position and one based on estimation of qualifications by your admitted experience or the lack thereof.

Where did I say or imply that my judgment is superior to those in the military? Read closer and you see that my response was directed at actions of someone in a hypothetical situation. Again, read the thread, don't make generalizations and summarily dismiss me or you'll only further confirm your bias.
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I won't deny my bias particularly since the evidence I have offered of my own knowledge of this topic would lean heavily towards making me biased.

;)

With that said there is no love lost between Goobie and myself so I am not 'taking his side' because we're buds nor dismissing you via generalizations. His position that you are unqualified to make judgments on those in combat is correct.

While I respect your service and recognize the position it has put our country in (#1 in the world), I also ask you to be informed and read the context of my statements.
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I will endeavor and have to the best of my ability. Our disagreement stems from what I estimate is your lack of qualifications to make sound judgments on this topic and your willingness to defend such a position.
 
rsixing said:
I will endeavor and have to the best of my ability. Our disagreement stems from what I estimate is your lack of qualifications to make sound judgments on this topic and your willingness to defend such a position.
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Again, you should have read the thread. I am not a prosecutor trying to actually judge a soldier's actions. We are on a debate forum and Goobieman proposed the question, presumably to the general populace. If he had requested opinions be limited to those who have a record of military service I would have refrained from voicing my opinion.

My reasons for attacking Goobieman's position were due to his oxymoronic logic of asking for opinions then summarily dismissing them on grounds that he opened the debate to in his OP.
 
shiznit770 said:
Again, you should have read the thread.
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:doh

I am not a prosecutor trying to actually judge a soldier's actions. We are on a debate forum and Goobieman proposed the question, presumably to the general populace. If he had requested opinions be limited to those who have a record of military service I would have refrained from voicing my opinion.
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My position has been, and still is, you are not qualified to judge the actions of military in combat as Goobie pointed out. I have based my opinion on the fact that you have clearly defined your inexperience and have, consequently, judged you as unqualified.

My reasons for attacking Goobieman's position were due to his oxymoronic logic of asking for opinions then summarily dismissing them on grounds that he opened the debate to in his OP.
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I am not questioning your reasons, simply reiterating my position that you are not qualified to pass judgment. Isn't that just action or should I refrain from further comment?
 
rsixing said:
:doh

My position has been, and still is, you are not qualified to judge the actions of military in combat as Goobie pointed out. I have based my opinion on the fact that you have clearly defined your inexperience and have, consequently, judged you as unqualified.

I am not questioning your reasons, simply reiterating my position that you are not qualified to pass judgment. Isn't that just action or should I refrain from further comment?
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As long as you understand that your comment means nothing in the context of this thread since my opinion was asked. If that is the only way you wish to refute my judgment, be my guest. Personally I came on these forums to debate issues logically, not dismiss them because of my ideology.
 
shiznit770 said:
As long as you understand that your comment means nothing in the context of this thread since my opinion was asked. If that is the only way you wish to refute my judgment, be my guest. Personally I came on these forums to debate issues logically, not dismiss them because of my ideology.
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lol...very nice. My comments, based on your admitted lack of experience on the topic, means nothing...very logical.

:doh
 
rsixing said:
lol...very nice. My comments, based on your admitted lack of experience on the topic, means nothing...very logical.

:doh
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Your comments are superficial and have nothing to do with logic. You're playing the "Military" card to cheapen my opinion. I, for one, would not be proud of that.
 
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