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A right to NOT join a union?

Do you have a right to NOT join a union

  • Total voters
    61
Cephus said:
Just to niggle a little, there are many, many jobs within a police department that do not require you to carry a gun. In fact, there are many jobs in uniform where carrying a weapon are not necessary or required. Someone who wanted to belong to the police department but didn't want to carry a gun could still do so. However, there are many industries where you simply cannot work in any capacity if you do not join a union. Take Hollywood for example. You simply cannot make movies in Hollywood without belonging to some sort of union. Heck, I don't think you can even pick up trash off the back lots without joining the "Backlot Trash Pickers Union". It simply cannot be done.
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You can make movies without being in a union. Indy films do it all the time.

Youtube is full of people who do it. Where's the issue? Just because the odds of it being succesful are dramaticaly reduced doesn't mean ****, the choice is there.

This comes back to my claim about nobody havign a right to a specific job.
 
Tucker Case said:
Notr according to MY argument. Maybe according to a miscommunication of my argument.

When you asked beofre about owning a gun, I repsonded that if it was a job requirement, it would be OK. This is like being a Policeman in soime places. My friend is a cop and he had to purhase his own sidearm. That is because the job requires him to have a handgun.
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Fair enough -- but that's not what I had in mind when I put forth the idea.


The Union is actually job dependent. It ceases to exist without the jobs. There is no occupation that dictates the KKK's existence.

One is related to the work, even if that relationship is contrived by the Union itself, the other group is totally unrelated to the job and thus it cannot be construed as a reasonable job requirement.

The comparison of saying that an employer requiring membership in the KKK (non-job related group) to an employer requiring memebrship in the Union (a job related group) is incorrect because the two groups are non-equivilant in terms of the discussion.
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Suppse that the requirement to join the KKK WAS a job-related requirement.
Then...?
 
Goobieman said:
Fair enough -- but that's not what I had in mind when I put forth the idea.
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Just curious, what did you have in mind exactly? I'm not sure if I'm on the same page, necessarily.



Suppse that the requirement to join the KKK WAS a job-related requirement.
Then...?
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Well, in that hypothetical, I still think the person is being given a choice (unless of course the KKK wouldn't allow a black member to join, then the choice is being removed and it's a problem).

My thinking is that people can take the job or not take the job knowing that the memebrship is a requirement. If they choose to take the job, they they also choose to join the KKK.

The choice isn't made for them.

If it's an aftger the fatc thing, where they have the job for years and they are beign literally forced to join (any group, Union, KKK, etc), then it's a different story altogether. In that case, the employee should have a right of refusal and receive no penalties for that refusal.

My argument only applies if the choice exists at any point along the path to emplyment.
 
Tucker Case said:
Just curious, what did you have in mind exactly? I'm not sure if I'm on the same page, necessarily.
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Just a general requirement -- to work here, you need to own a gun.

Well, in that hypothetical, I still think the person is being given a choice (unless of course the KKK wouldn't allow a black member to join, then the choice is being removed and it's a problem).
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And, do you suppose that a court (pick one) would agree?
 
Goobieman said:
Just a general requirement -- to work here, you need to own a gun.
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Gotcha. I'd still be fine with that.


And, do you suppose that a court (pick one) would agree?
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The KKK example would probably not fly, but I'd guess that the gun thing would be OK in the right local region.

I myself would be in favor of the business owner having the right to choose to make Union membership mandatory or not.
 
Lightdemon said:
Professionally speaking as a teacher, you'd be pretty stupid not to join the union. Job security is very important when it comes to career choice, and it is even more important now since there has been a wave of budget cuts in public education, particularly in CA.
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I know a lady who taught in a public (i.e. government-run) kindergarten. She refused to join the teachers' union in spite of a great deal of pressure to do so. She didn't lose any salary or benefits.

Oh by the way, she was one of the best teachers in the system.
 
Tucker Case said:
This comes back to my claim about nobody havign a right to a specific job.
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But the question isn't really having a specific job, it's having a right not to be forced into a union. If the job you've had for 20 years unionizes and you voted against the union, you're stuck either being out of the job you've had for 20 years, and perhaps out of the only industry you're qualified to work in, or be part of a union you do not want to be a part of.

That strikes me as about as stupid as saying gays have a right to get married, so long as they marry someone of the opposite sex. :roll:
 
Cephus said:
But the question isn't really having a specific job, it's having a right not to be forced into a union. If the job you've had for 20 years unionizes and you voted against the union, you're stuck either being out of the job you've had for 20 years, and perhaps out of the only industry you're qualified to work in, or be part of a union you do not want to be a part of.
In that case, they should have a right to not join the union. I actually said that earlier: "If it's an aftger the fatc thing, where they have the job for years and they are beign literally forced to join (any group, Union, KKK, etc), then it's a different story altogether. In that case, the employee should have a right of refusal and receive no penalties for that refusal."

I guesss it doesn't really sound as stupid as the right to get married argument when you actually READ the comments instead of INVENT them. :roll: ;)
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Tucker Case said:
In that case, they should have a right to not join the union. I actually said that earlier: "If it's an aftger the fatc thing, where they have the job for years and they are beign literally forced to join (any group, Union, KKK, etc), then it's a different story altogether. In that case, the employee should have a right of refusal and receive no penalties for that refusal."
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Unfortunately, while they should have that right, they don't in practice. When a shop unionizes, you either join or you lose your job.
 
Goobieman said:
In many places, such as school systems or places of higher education, if a union is in place, employees must join it, regardless as to the preference of the employee.

Do you have a right to NOT join a union?

Why/why not?
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Thank God I now work in an open shop. Last place I worked was a closed shop and I was forced to give money to the blood sucking, do nothing union.
 
Goobieman said:
In many places, such as school systems or places of higher education, if a union is in place, employees must join it, regardless as to the preference of the employee.

Do you have a right to NOT join a union?

Why/why not?
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Union members are not obligated to pay dues unrelated to collective bargaining and worker's interests ex: political campaigns or social activities.

FindLaw | Cases and Codes
 
There's been alot of talk in this thread about "if you don't like it then get a different job or move".

Well I'm here to tell ya that's a bunch of bull****. If I had the money to move I would. But I don't so I can't move. I have to accept whatever I can in order to just make ends meet. Regardless of my personal beliefs. Family comes first, which means bills come before pride.

It's easy to tell people to "just get another job or move" when you have the money. It also shows a total lack of understanding how people like me struggle just to pay the bills. You try living on a net income of 12k per year and then tell me that crap.
 
Lightdemon said:
Professionally speaking as a teacher, you'd be pretty stupid not to join the union. Job security is very important when it comes to career choice, and it is even more important now since there has been a wave of budget cuts in public education, particularly in CA.
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Here's a clever and apparently untried idea for you teachers: try establishing job security through value-for-pay. In other words, turn out a quality product (educated, or at least less grotesquely ignorant children,) and you can then move out of the preposterous practice of a school system run by the State, into the more rational field of private education.

Leave extortion to criminals.
 
rsixing said:
You have the right to not join a union just as you have a right to get a union in place at any place of employment!
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I've never thought of the freedom to establish a union in a private business, much less a government office as a right, so much as a capitulation to thugery.
 
Goobieman said:
In many places, such as school systems or places of higher education, if a union is in place, employees must join it, regardless as to the preference of the employee.

Do you have a right to NOT join a union?

Why/why not?
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Do you? In most cases, no.
Should you? In most cases, yes.
 
Lightdemon said:
Sure, let's say you have a right to say no. Would any teachers choose it? Willingly? I doubt it.
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I know several high school teachers who can't stand the fact that their union protects incompetent teachers and resent the fact that they have to pay dues. They would certainly choose to not be part of the union if they could.

Lightdemon said:
How do you assess a teacher's performance? Do you look at her student's grades? Do you look at her teaching style? Do you look at how much she's improved this year? or how much her student's improved this year?

How can you measure incompetence of the teacher? On what basis can you fire him/her?
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That would be up to the superintendent / dean / school board / whoever.
 
Unions have pretty much outlived their usefulness in my opinion. I mean with all the government regulations and laws in effect to protect the worker, what do you really need Unions for? When I worked at GM Electromotive I saw how wasteful and useless they could really be.

I rank it with things like affirmative action. May have been useful at one time, but that time is long gone.
 
Goobieman said:
In many places, such as school systems or places of higher education, if a union is in place, employees must join it, regardless as to the preference of the employee.

Do you have a right to NOT join a union?

Why/why not?
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Here in SD we're a "right to work" state because we recognize a person's right to earn a living is far greater than the unions right to regulate the work environment.

Personal freedom FTW :2wave:
 
Goobieman said:
In many places, such as school systems or places of higher education, if a union is in place, employees must join it, regardless as to the preference of the employee.

Do you have a right to NOT join a union?

Why/why not?
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This sort of thing is illegal in Virginia. It should be illegal in every state.
 
I've have seen unions transform low-paying jobs without security into middle-class jobs with benefits. On average wages in unionized workplaces are higher than in non-unionized workplaces that are in the same economic sector.
 
Dav said:
This sort of thing is illegal in Virginia. It should be illegal in every state.
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Unfortunately, it's not. In most states, if a workplace is union, they cannot hire anyone who is not also willing to join the union, in most cases they don't even ask when they hire you, you're just expected to join and that's that. There are also industries where you are almost entirely unable to work in said industry without being a part of their various unions.

It should be illegal, it's just not.
 
JimboJ said:
I've have seen unions transform low-paying jobs without security into middle-class jobs with benefits. On average wages in unionized workplaces are higher than in non-unionized workplaces that are in the same economic sector.
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There are also fewer of them, and those workplaces are generally less profitable than their competitors. Whenever you artificially raise the price of something (e.g. labor) above the market price, it will create a surplus.
 
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