• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Shut down "Wet Markets?"

Should the world force China to close these "wet markets?"

  • Need more info

    Votes: 8 16.0%
  • Yes, shut down the wet markets

    Votes: 37 74.0%
  • No, wet markets are a Chinese tradition

    Votes: 5 10.0%

  • Total voters
    50
  • Poll closed .
I didnt see you qualify your statement anywhere with 'during an epidemic.' The discussion was about closing wet markets and reducing the development and spread of disease from China.

Reducing travel DURING an epidemic is not a new solution and is already part of health plans.



I cant answer this (bold). But since it's not a relatively easy or near-future solution, it's not particularly relevant to the OP. It's basically a solution to all global problems so too broad and abstract *for me* to indulge in here.

I appreciate your civil response however.

Lursa:

Regarding your first paragraph, with the exception of tourism, I was talking about standard behaviour, not behaviour reserved for pandemics. With regard to tourism, perhaps make virtual tourism an option and get businesses to sink money into developing it and improving it so that more people opt for it. Maybe even bring it to the hypothetical of Phillip K Dick's "Total Recall" by the mid to late 21st Century if possible.:)

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
OK, but so what?

My point was that one can't stop buying X from China when there is currently no alternate source of X.

BTW, who should be in charge of where X, Y and Z can be bought and, most importantly, who gets to define X, Y and Z?


By whom and how quickly were these items given to China for production and distribution? Make it imperative and It can be reversed just a quickly.
 
Lursa:

Regarding your first paragraph, with the exception of tourism, I was talking about standard behaviour, not behaviour reserved for pandemics. With regard to tourism, perhaps make virtual tourism an option and get businesses to sink money into developing it and improving it so that more people opt for it. Maybe even bring it to the hypothetical of Phillip K Dick's "Total Recall" by the mid to late 21st Century if possible.:)

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

As an outdoors person, virtual tourism could never take the place of the real thing. Nor the historic...there is something amazing and humanizing and 'more real' visiting such places in person.

If we do that for tourism, we'd end up with all our experiences 'online.' I'd abhor that...we are certainly on that road now.

And sure, I've read loads of SF on it.
 
When that 25¢ per hour can buy a day's food, it is not 25¢ per hour. The first lesson of economics 101 is often the introduction to the purchasing power of money rather than the numbers. i.e. 1931 which could buy more flour, 30 million German marks or two US dimes?

Nice try at changing the goal posts. $2.25 will buy a lot of rice in the USA too.

Cars aren't cheaper in India or China. Never heard any person who visited China reporting "Wow, we got a steak dinner for only $3.17!" when 3 hours of blue collar minimum wage in the USA will buy 1 or maybe 2 on a Tuesday trips to Golden Coral or family meal at KFC. Certainly two dinners at Denny's or a couple bags of well selected groceries and probably 25 pounds or more bulk rice. How much food would 8 1/2 hour of minimum wage in the USA buy compared to the $2.25 in India for a day's wage? 100 pounds of rice at least in the USA.

There are reasons the Chinese eat dogs and any other animal they can get hold of. You think they LIKE bat wings and heads soup? China has astronomical income differences across the country.

The quality of life for most people in India is horrific. But they aren't the ones traveling in the USA with the women in colorful clothing.

Why do so many people make assertions that are inaccurate - then twist and squirm, divert or attack to avoid acknowledging it? I do so all the time on the forum. I did it yesterday, twice, towards an always-adversarial poster. I've acknowledged I was wrong or off-base hundreds of times on the forum. It's called intellectual integrity rather than ego-insecurity.
 
Last edited:
I think you need to revise your economic growth numbers.
We should be worried that with the slowing of economic growth and the impact on imported pork and beef, more and more people might be pushed into eating more exotic animals from the forests and caves.

Exotic animals at the wet markets are extremely expensive to begin with so now with all the commotion going on they're all the more dear to the Chinese who buy 'em. Remember too these animals become ingredients in traditional medicines to include whole parts being dispensed. With so many Chinese out of work and loathe to raid their savings the trade is having a rough time of it, or so I'm advised by Chinese who can assess these things.

Prices of pork and even chicken have increased 116% for pork since CCP Boyz in Beijing bungled the swine virus throughout last year and now with the CV-19. I stopped going to the market a block from my building once they stopped putting the sticker tag of price and info on individual packages of pork. Now you have to take the blank packet to the counter to be weighed and priced and in practicality you can't reject it after finding out the daylight robbery damage. You can reject it but it gets a big stink by the market and its security guards who are the law unto themselves under their own roof.

Beef has always been more expensive in 'normal' times so now you need to bring a Brinks's truck to the market to buy any. Yesterday at a different and more upscale market (you can buy butter and cheese) I bought a (labeled) packet of beef so the Chinese woman next to me quipped, "You must be loaded to be buying beef." Same for apples believe it or not. The woman's English was perfect btw which is no surprise in this part of town. As to butter and cheese, only the most expensive of 'em remain in stock, butter from NZ and cheese from, ahem, Ireland (cheddar).

China CPI went above 5% last week and the word is it will be a long time before Chinese see 4% again...pretty soon 5% is going to look good. Inflation is taking off too again. The factory next to my apartment building -- zoning in China sucks -- reopened two weeks ago but still isn't running its night shift.

I went to the bank Wednesday because ATMs of all banks no longer provide cash so I had to wait in a police controlled line at the doors that limits the number of people in the bank at a given time, which is true of all banks also. I used the central ATM inside which provides all the cash you want or need which makes be feel unsafe outside and at home. The notoriously slack and sleepy building security cops at residences and business are much tighter about unknown visitors since the CV-19 however.
 
As an outdoors person, virtual tourism could never take the place of the real thing. Nor the historic...there is something amazing and humanizing and 'more real' visiting such places in person.

If we do that for tourism, we'd end up with all our experiences 'online.' I'd abhor that...we are certainly on that road now.

And sure, I've read loads of SF on it.

Why do some people believe they have to go to another country to experience other cultures - usually going to tourist site - often because other places are too dangerous, poor or unfriendly to Americans.

See America. It is an amazingly diverse county, particularly in terms of nature and diversity. Ever taken a small rental boat down a remote winding river on the low population central Florida woodland swamps? Nothing like. You'll an incredible collect of wildlife, particularly birds, you could see anywhere. To me, the most beautiful plae on earth and I know some very secret spots no one goes to. As primative ancient nature as you can find - and you are not the alpha species either. Totally different nature. And a very different culture in terms of people too. There are thousands of unique and amazing places in the USA. Have you seen them all?
 
By whom and how quickly were these items given to China for production and distribution? Make it imperative and It can be reversed just a quickly.

I'm not sure what you mean by "items given to China". I don't buy tools, equipment and materials (for my personal or business use) based on their country of origin and suspect that most do not. Telling me or anyone else that they must buy product/item X from a US maker would seem to be beyond the power of our federal government and rightly so.
 
Why do some people believe they have to go to another country to experience other cultures - usually going to tourist site - often because other places are too dangerous, poor or unfriendly to Americans.

See America. It is an amazingly diverse county, particularly in terms of nature and diversity. Ever taken a small rental boat down a remote winding river on the low population central Florida woodland swamps? Nothing like. You'll an incredible collect of wildlife, particularly birds, you could see anywhere. To me, the most beautiful plae on earth and I know some very secret spots no one goes to. As primative ancient nature as you can find - and you are not the alpha species either. Totally different nature. And a very different culture in terms of people too. There are thousands of unique and amazing places in the USA. Have you seen them all?

??? Because, "they're other cultures" and "other natural wonders."

And what makes you think we dont explore the US too? What if I want to experience the ruins of Greece after the ruins of the US SW? Where will I find more?
 
We've had waves of viruses that cross the world, infecting millions of people and killing hundreds of thousands. SARS, MERS and now COVID-19.

All of these viruses originated in Chinese "wet markets" where exotic animals are sold for consumption. People live in close contact with these animals and viruses "jump" from the animals to humans, starting deadly plagues.

Should the world force China to close these "wet markets?" Boycotting China would be one way to get them to comply.

I think if wet markets were actually problem then it would have been a problem a long time ago.If it walks,crawls,swims or fly they been eating it for a long time. Ever watch that show Bizarre eats? People eat strange crap all over the globe.
 
I think if wet markets were actually problem then it would have been a problem a long time ago.If it walks,crawls,swims or fly they been eating it for a long time. Ever watch that show Bizarre eats? People eat strange crap all over the globe.

Because in the past we didnt have the speed and range of travel and numbers traveling as we do today.
 
Because in the past we didnt have the speed and range of travel and numbers traveling as we do today.
We been having this speed and range of travel for awhile now.
It wasn't yesterday some Chinese person thought to him or herself "hey I wonder what that bat tastes like?" and sometime later "cough cough I'm sick".
 
IIRC Apple workers make about $20 per day.

No longer, that was the case 5 years ago. Today Foxconn (aka Hon Hai), which is not Apple, pays a minimum of $35 per day. Fox manufactures more than 40% of the desktop, laptop, smartphones and phones sold annually world wide. Still not 50¢ per hour.
 
We been having this speed and range of travel for awhile now.
It wasn't yesterday some Chinese person thought to him or herself "hey I wonder what that bat tastes like?" and sometime later "cough cough I'm sick".

You wrote 'a long time ago.' So what you just commented isnt true then IMO. We did not have that capability or mobility a long time ago.

If you want to be more specific, fine.
 
Nice try at changing the goal posts. $2.25 will buy a lot of rice in the USA too.

Cars aren't cheaper in India or China. Never heard any person who visited China reporting "Wow, we got a steak dinner for only $3.17!" when 3 hours of blue collar minimum wage in the USA will buy 1 or maybe 2 on a Tuesday trips to Golden Coral or family meal at KFC. Certainly two dinners at Denny's or a couple bags of well selected groceries and probably 25 pounds or more bulk rice. How much food would 8 1/2 hour of minimum wage in the USA buy compared to the $2.25 in India for a day's wage? 100 pounds of rice at least in the USA.

There are reasons the Chinese eat dogs and any other animal they can get hold of. You think they LIKE bat wings and heads soup? China has astronomical income differences across the country.

The quality of life for most people in India is horrific. But they aren't the ones traveling in the USA with the women in colorful clothing.

Why do so many people make assertions that are inaccurate - then twist and squirm, divert or attack to avoid acknowledging it? I do so all the time on the forum. I did it yesterday, twice, towards an always-adversarial poster. I've acknowledged I was wrong or off-base hundreds of times on the forum. It's called intellectual integrity rather than ego-insecurity.

The last $1.99 Tad's Steakhouse closed this past year. Its last steak dinner sold for $12.99. Still the same horrid excuse for a steak, but an excellent baked potato. :)

Dog as part of Chinese cuisine goes back thousands of years, nothing to do with poverty. You'd find it difficult to find any culture in human history that did not eat animal based foods we would never eat today in supermarket America. Horse meat is still a staple in France and Mongolia. It wasn't a change of goal posts, it was recognition as you pointed out, the value of money is dependent upon the its purchasing power. Quality of life is not an indicator of wealth comparisons as much as it signifies the purchasing power of currency. This is part of the concept that got Isaac Newton knighted when he conceptually invented "currency" as opposed to gold and silver backed money.

An aside, India is the world's wealthiest nation. Do you know why?
 
That's what I said. Covid passed from bats to an animal to humans.

The problem is you said it happened in a wet market...it didn't HIV they believe started with hunters..and aren't sure how they were infected or if it somehow jumped from them touching the blood...a primate to a human is a very close relation. The link seems to suggest that this virus didn't jump from bats directly to humans...there was a host in between...and if heat kills it like Trump alleges it didn't come from eating the animal...

COVID-19 coronavirus epidemic has a natural origin -- ScienceDaily
 
The problem is you said it happened in a wet market...it didn't HIV they believe started with hunters..and aren't sure how they were infected or if it somehow jumped from them touching the blood...a primate to a human is a very close relation. The link seems to suggest that this virus didn't jump from bats directly to humans...there was a host in between...and if heat kills it like Trump alleges it didn't come from eating the animal...

COVID-19 coronavirus epidemic has a natural origin -- ScienceDaily

I didn't say it happened in a wet market. However, there is some evidence to suggest that HIV jumped from chimps to humans via eating chimp meat, whether it was from actually eating the meat or being contaminated by the blood.
 
I'm not sure what you mean by "items given to China". I don't buy tools, equipment and materials (for my personal or business use) based on their country of origin and suspect that most do not. Telling me or anyone else that they must buy product/item X from a US maker would seem to be beyond the power of our federal government and rightly so.

I definitely buy tools based on country of origin. An American made drill bit is worth 25 Chinese made drill bits in terms of time to drill thru metal and how many times you have to use another drill bit. Germany made drill bits are worth 50 Chinese made drill bits. While the Chinese made drill bits are much cheaper each - both the American made and German made actually are much cheaper over all - plus you don't have to run back to Home Depot for 5 or 10 more Chinese drill bits.

I'm cetain I can't find it online, but I recalll a study made between products bought by the wealthy versus brought by average person - specifically furniture. The wealthy would buy a desk all of hardwood, made by fine wood craftsmenship costing $2500. The average person would buy a desk made in China of particle board and aluminum screw in fasheners. And they would buy another desk and another desk and another desk... noting the Chinese (deliberately) do not spend the exact $1 to make the particle board with water resistant glue or a strong expoxy. Any water on it and the desk swells irreversibly. A bit too much weight and the joints tear out - almost impossible to fix. A made-in-China couch? The material is shredded, one of the children jumped on it breaking a spring or slate (you can't get to) or collapsing the thin particle board (or cardboard) holding the shape of the arm - and the materials seams are coming loose and cloth tearing quick enough - and the soft wood they use also comes apart quickly.

Chinese made furniture ends up out at the street quickly.

The fate of all the Chinese desks is to soon be out at the street as junk. The wealthy person's desk, even if they don't want to keep it, is probably worth $750 to $1000.

But also the wealthy person maybe didn't have to buy a desk at all, because his great grandfather's desk - still in outstanding condition and now a highly valuable antique is still just fine. Simply, the study showed that the wealthy who buy the most expensive furniture actually pay much less than for the Chinese particle board crap.

For tools? An American or Germany socket is not going to strip the edges of the bolt - for which now you are trying to figure how to have an angle to drill into for a work-out bit - unless it is highly torqued in - for which you have to entirely drill it out, then thread the hole for a spiral - hoping that can hold and that a larger bolt - that you have to find - can work. Cheap crap not only is cheap, it is the most expensive of all.

Whenever possible, I will buy American made and if not, go down this list depending what it is - made in Germany. Made In Japan. Made in Korea. The Irish make awesome wool winter shaws. I'll even buy made in Indonesia or India before made in China - because it became clear to me China deliberately sells things made to fail and fail quickly. Hopeful that Chinese made Christmas toy would break apart on Christmas day or if battery operates will make the whole day. But an American Tonka truck made 75 years is still good - even if all beat up.

Cheap crap is never a good deal - ever. China only sells deliberate cheap crap meant to quickly require replacing over and over and over and over and over - and can bring all sorts of other expenses, time lost and damage - such as Chinese made tools and drill bits.
 
Last edited:
The last $1.99 Tad's Steakhouse closed this past year. Its last steak dinner sold for $12.99. Still the same horrid excuse for a steak, but an excellent baked potato. :)

Dog as part of Chinese cuisine goes back thousands of years, nothing to do with poverty. You'd find it difficult to find any culture in human history that did not eat animal based foods we would never eat today in supermarket America. Horse meat is still a staple in France and Mongolia. It wasn't a change of goal posts, it was recognition as you pointed out, the value of money is dependent upon the its purchasing power. Quality of life is not an indicator of wealth comparisons as much as it signifies the purchasing power of currency. This is part of the concept that got Isaac Newton knighted when he conceptually invented "currency" as opposed to gold and silver backed money.

An aside, India is the world's wealthiest nation. Do you know why?

You are just going to dig in with the absolutely absurd claim that the monetary wealth of an American shipyard worker is the same as an Indian shipyard worker. I am sorry to see that about you. I actually had a higher opinion. How many people in a job position in India similar to you have drives a 2011 Cadillac still worth $45,000? I mean, yes, companies also put nets around factories in the USA also do deal with employees jumping out the window to commit suicide, right? I started as poor and desperate entering adult life as a runaway form unthinkable abuse at 15 with nothing. My first money was $20 for shoving snow all day in zero weather for a Chicago ghetto strip club - where I then worked untili 29 - moving up the ladder to being one of the biggest fish in that criminal operation - and doing quice well financially - until I married, moved to Florida and it a long story became extremely wealthy, set for life. So I won't waste any more of my time on that debate, for which you again change the goal post arguing money isn't everything - to poor people.

Why do you claim India is the wealthiest country on earth? Is that a joke question?
 
Last edited:
I didn't say it happened in a wet market. However, there is some evidence to suggest that HIV jumped from chimps to humans via eating chimp meat, whether it was from actually eating the meat or being contaminated by the blood.


Somebody had sexy time with a chimp.
 
I definitely buy tools based on country of origin. An American made drill bit is worth 25 Chinese made drill bits in terms of time to drill thru metal and how many times you have to use another drill bit. Germany made drill bits are worth 50 Chinese made drill bits. While the Chinese made drill bits are much cheaper each - both the American made and German made actually are much cheaper over all - plus you don't have to run back to Home Depot for 5 or 10 more Chinese drill bits.

I'm cetain I can't find it online, but I recalll a study made between products bought by the wealthy versus brought by average person - specifically furniture. The wealthy would buy a desk all of hardwood, made by fine wood craftsmenship costing $2500. The average person would buy a desk made in China of particle board and aluminum screw in fasheners. And they would buy another desk and another desk and another desk... noting the Chinese (deliberately) do not spend the exact $1 to make the particle board with water resistant glue or a strong expoxy. Any water on it and the desk swells irreversibly. A bit too much weight and the joints tear out - almost impossible to fix. A made-in-China couch? The material is shredded, one of the children jumped on it breaking a spring or slate (you can't get to) or collapsing the thin particle board (or cardboard) holding the shape of the arm - and the materials seams are coming loose and cloth tearing quick enough - and the soft wood they use also comes apart quickly.

Chinese made furniture ends up out at the street quickly.

The fate of all the Chinese desks is to soon be out at the street as junk. The wealthy person's desk, even if they don't want to keep it, is probably worth $750 to $1000.

But also the wealthy person maybe didn't have to buy a desk at all, because his great grandfather's desk - still in outstanding condition and now a highly valuable antique is still just fine. Simply, the study showed that the wealthy who buy the most expensive furniture actually pay much less than for the Chinese particle board crap.

For tools? An American or Germany socket is not going to strip the edges of the bolt - for which now you are trying to figure how to have an angle to drill into for a work-out bit - unless it is highly torqued in - for which you have to entirely drill it out, then thread the hole for a spiral - hoping that can hold and that a larger bolt - that you have to find - can work. Cheap crap not only is cheap, it is the most expensive of all.

Whenever possible, I will buy American made and if not, go down this list depending what it is - made in Germany. Made In Japan. Made in Korea. The Irish make awesome wool winter shaws. I'll even buy made in Indonesia or India before made in China - because it became clear to me China deliberately sells things made to fail and fail quickly. Hopeful that Chinese made Christmas toy would break apart on Christmas day or if battery operates will make the whole day. But an American Tonka truck made 75 years is still good - even if all beat up.

Cheap crap is never a good deal - ever. China only sells deliberate cheap crap meant to quickly require replacing over and over and over and over and over - and can bring all sorts of other expenses, time lost and damage - such as Chinese made tools and drill bits.

I mostly agree with you on bits, blades and steel (mechanics) tools - the imports (except most German and some Japanese) are generally far worse (lower quality) than their US competition. For carpentry power tools (corded or cordless) and their accessories there is little difference in quality or durability and far more imports are available than US made. I recently shopped for a folding compound miter saw stand with wheels and could find no decent US made product. The best was Bosch (German) but far too expensive and the two next best (Delta and Dewalt) were both made in China. I ended up buying the Delta brand product (over $150 less expensive than the slightly better Bosch product) since it had a better lock/release mechanism than the Dewalt product did and was slightly ($40) less expensive.
 
You are just going to dig in with the absolutely absurd claim that the monetary wealth of an American shipyard worker is the same as an Indian shipyard worker. I am sorry to see that about you. I actually had a higher opinion. How many people in a job position in India similar to you have drives a 2011 Cadillac still worth $45,000? I mean, yes, companies also put nets around factories in the USA also do deal with employees jumping out the window to commit suicide, right? I started as poor and desperate entering adult life as a runaway form unthinkable abuse at 15 with nothing. My first money was $20 for shoving snow all day in zero weather for a Chicago ghetto strip club - where I then worked untili 29 - moving up the ladder to being one of the biggest fish in that criminal operation - and doing quice well financially - until I married, moved to Florida and it a long story became extremely wealthy, set for life. So I won't waste any more of my time on that debate, for which you again change the goal post arguing money isn't everything - to poor people.

Why do you claim India is the wealthiest country on earth? Is that a joke question?

I didn't say anything like that. You need to the concept some more thought. Wealth is always relative.

No, it is not a joke question. India is the wealthiest nation in the world. It is the only nation with no foreign debt. Further investigation by you will reveal the rest of the reason for that statement. Distribution of wealth is not part of the equation. The Moghuls, the Maharajas and their families, along with their wealth did not disappear.
 
Somebody had sexy time with a chimp.

I don't think that was actually ever proven, though a possibility. From what I understand, in that area, chimp meat isn't all that uncommon.
 
I'm not sure what you mean by "items given to China". I don't buy tools, equipment and materials (for my personal or business use) based on their country of origin and suspect that most do not. Telling me or anyone else that they must buy product/item X from a US maker would seem to be beyond the power of our federal government and rightly so.

Financing, what I consider here to be terrorism, has given us plenty of reasons to boycott a country's product.

China Has a History of Selling Dangerous Products to U.S. Consumers - TheStreet


Those and 7 out of ten of the last deadly pathogens released on the world give us yet another wake up call.


I do understand your resistance to being told what to buy.
 
No longer, that was the case 5 years ago. Today Foxconn (aka Hon Hai), which is not Apple, pays a minimum of $35 per day. Fox manufactures more than 40% of the desktop, laptop, smartphones and phones sold annually world wide. Still not 50¢ per hour.

Are you being an apologist for China or companies paying those low wages in China?
 
Back
Top Bottom