If you lose your job, do you still have a moral duty to pay your rent on time?

This appears to be a multi-trillion dollar question.
We each have duties and obligations we are expected to perform in a timely fashion, and non-performance or late performance may/may not result in consequences.

People are griping in another forum (for casino dealers) about the stimulus and unemployment compensation they're going to receive, with comments such as "$1,200 ain't ****." :doh

My favorite:

"How does anyone expect me to live on $1,000 per week?" ($400 in state unemployment plus the $600 federal supplement) :lol:

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One guy, whom I know personally, brought up the idea that maybe they should have saved something for a rainy day and they might benefit in the future from reading a Dave Ramsey book. I thought they were going to draw and quarter him for being what they thought was an impudent ass. :lol:

Ahlevah said:

I would say yes, you do, although under the circumstances I think it would be a dick move for a landlord to issue a three-day notice to pay rent or a two-week eviction notice. But, yeah, this is why it is imperative that families set aside funds for emergencies and unforeseen events like this pandemic. You shouldn't demand charity. Living in a private apartment or home owned by someone else isn't a right.

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With this crisis we are going to see a lot of people go under. People won't be able to pay their rent and mortgage. The government is going to be in a lot of debt. Many businesses have a lot of debt and bills to pay. We need a way of keeping million of people from being ruined by this crisis. If not, 2008 is going to look mild.

distraff said:

With this crisis we are going to see a lot of people go under. People won't be able to pay their rent and mortgage. The government is going to be in a lot of debt. Many businesses have a lot of debt and bills to pay. We need a way of keeping million of people from being ruined by this crisis. If not, 2008 is going to look mild.

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There will be dislocation and hardship, and a lot of phone calls to creditors, but there will be light at the end of the tunnel. They should be thankful they live in a country that has a tunnel. Imagine living in a place not handing out trillions of dollars worth of stimulus that's completely dependent on, say, tourism. There aren't too many cruise ships stopping in Montego Bay at the moment.

Ahlevah said:

There will be dislocation and hardship, and a lot of phone calls to creditors, but there will be light at the end of the tunnel. They should be thankful they live in a country that has a tunnel. Imagine living in a place not handing out trillions of dollars worth of stimulus that's completely dependent on, say, tourism. There aren't too many cruise ships stopping in Montego Bay at the moment.

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Global Depressions Sunk All Boats.

distraff said:

With this crisis we are going to see a lot of people go under. People won't be able to pay their rent and mortgage. The government is going to be in a lot of debt. Many businesses have a lot of debt and bills to pay. We need a way of keeping million of people from being ruined by this crisis. If not, 2008 is going to look mild.

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We are almost certainly already in a Depression.

BIG PAIN is Here.

Ahlevah said:

There will be dislocation and hardship, and a lot of phone calls to creditors, but there will be light at the end of the tunnel. They should be thankful they live in a country that has a tunnel. Imagine living in a place not handing out trillions of dollars worth of stimulus that's completely dependent on, say, tourism. There aren't too many cruise ships stopping in Montego Bay at the moment.

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I hope you are right. But if we can't get this virus under control, we will be shut down for months, and who knows what happens next fall or next spring. 2 trillion dollars won't be enough for a depression, we will need a lot more. But with how much we are in debt, we are likely to see a lot of inflation and cost of living increases. Depressions take at least a decade to get out of. But I sure hope there is a light at the end of the tunnel. I'd rather that we let the virus do its thing and kill a million people than spend months in lockdown not able to really beat the virus.

distraff said:

I'd rather that we let the virus do its thing and kill a million people than spend months in lockdown not able to really beat the virus.

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I hope you're not serious. In any case, I don't think it will come to that, as long as people take this thing seriously and take their lumps now. U.S. companies doing business in China are reporting that they're already reopening.

Ahlevah said:

I hope you're not serious. In any case, I don't think it will come to that, as long as people take this thing seriously and take their lumps now. U.S. companies doing business in China are reporting that they're already reopening.

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I think you are mostly right. The country is only about 1/3 shut down now. A lot of people are working from home and some still are working at work. However, I do believe some businesses will suffer even after the reopen. The cruise lines will take a big hit. Tourism will suffer greatly. I thing a lot of people will err on the safe side and stay clear of restaurants and bars. I think real estate and auto sales will lag for a few months too.

I think we will see a change in our culture too. I think people will start being more like the Japanese. More standoffish, less hand shaking and hugging.

BahamaBob said:

I think you are mostly right. The country is only about 1/3 shut down now. A lot of people are working from home and some still are working at work. However, I do believe some businesses will suffer even after the reopen. The cruise lines will take a big hit. Tourism will suffer greatly. I thing a lot of people will err on the safe side and stay clear of restaurants and bars. I think real estate and auto sales will lag for a few months too.

I think we will see a change in our culture too. I think people will start being more like the Japanese. More standoffish, less hand shaking and hugging.

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Yeah, I was thinking the same thing yesterday. I also think this was a wake-up call for corporations sending executives and employees all over the country for meetings and training. You might want to buy Zoom stock. My employer has been hosting company-wide town hall meetings with it. Even our church choir director wants to set up group rehearsals on Zoom. :lol:

Ahlevah said:

I hope you're not serious. In any case, I don't think it will come to that, as long as people take this thing seriously and take their lumps now. U.S. companies doing business in China are reporting that they're already reopening.

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Actual economists are estimating that we could hit a 32% unemployment rate. I can assure you that a couple trillion won't make much of a dent. If you ever learned about the great depression, it was absolutely desvastating. It was actually the catalyst for WWII because of the economic conditions in Germany. 3 million already die yearly, and if 1 million die from Covid, that is 4 million. I would rather that another million die than we sink into a depression for a decade or two. Its really a hard thing to say and I don't want to see a million people die.
Coronavirus update: Job losses could total 47 million, unemployment rate of 32%, Fed says

distraff said:

Actual economists are estimating that we could hit a 32% unemployment rate. I can assure you that a couple trillion won't make much of a dent.

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First of all, don't listen to economists, especially from the Fed. :lol: To paraphrase Paul Samuelson, economists have successfully predicted nine out of the last five recessions. I think the $2.3 trillion is not the final word on stimulus, and 10% of our GDP is not insignificant, especially when we take into account how quickly it will be injected into the economy. It's like a shot of epinephrine. Trump has been talking about an infrastructure bill forever, and now he has an opening. Most of our major airports are dated, and our roads and bridges are literally falling apart. We need it. Then there's the Fed's $4 trillion.

distraff said:

If you ever learned about the great depression, it was absolutely desvastating. It was actually the catalyst for WWII because of the economic conditions in Germany. 3 million already die yearly, and if 1 million die from Covid, that is 4 million. I would rather that another million die than we sink into a depression for a decade or two. Its really a hard thing to say and I don't want to see a million people die.

Coronavirus update: Job losses could total 47 million, unemployment rate of 32%, Fed says

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Toss 'em overboard, eh? Honestly, I don't think it's going to come to that, and it shouldn't. What you're advocating amounts to a long-term solution to a temporary problem, and make no mistake: this is a temporary problem while death is final. We're better than that.

Ahlevah said:

First of all, don't listen to economists, especially from the Fed. :lol: To paraphrase Paul Samuelson, economists have successfully predicted nine out of the last five recessions. I think the $2.3 trillion is not the final word on stimulus, and 10% of our GDP is not insignificant, especially when we take into account how quickly it will be injected into the economy. It's like a shot of epinephrine. Trump has been talking about an infrastructure bill forever, and now he has an opening. Most of our major airports are dated, and our roads and bridges are literally falling apart. We need it. Then there's the Fed's $4 trillion.



Toss 'em overboard, eh? Honestly, I don't think it's going to come to that, and it shouldn't. What you're advocating amounts to a long-term solution to a temporary problem, and make no mistake: this is a temporary problem while death is final. We're better than that.

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I do appreciate the optimism and do hope for the best. But it appears that the unemployment is going the way that these economists are saying they are. We just got 3.3 million unemployment claims last week, and that amounts to a 2% increase in unemployment to almost 6%. We are expecting another 2.6 million more claims. If businesses start collapsing during this crisis, then the number of unemployment claims will keep coming in at this rate.

I think whether or not we go into a depression depends on whether we can get this thing under control in the next few weeks. If the number of infections stops rising in the next few weeks, we will still have to be in lockdown for another month at least for those numbers to decline significantly. And every week this happens we are seeing unemployment go up. In this scenario I think unemployment will reach 15%.

If the number of infected keeps rising through april and beyond then we are looking at months in quarantine and that is when we are definitely going to see unemployment above 20%, and it could easily go above 30%. Also, even if we get everything under control, if another wave of this thing comes through in the fall and the spring, its going to knock down an already fragile economy. We really need a vaccine as quickly as possible.

That 2 trillion dollar stimulus isn't enough to help all the businesses survive and pay the unemployment claims for 20-30% of the population. The Fed's loans are very helpful, but they may not be enough if entire industries begin to collapse. I remember back in 2008, the government pumped in trillions into the economy, and although things started recovering quickly, it was slow and painful. And that was with only a 10% unemployment rate. With a 20-30% unemployment, the government is going to reach its limits.

If you lose your job, do you still have a moral duty to pay your rent on time?

I don't have a job to lose..

Ahlevah said:

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing yesterday. I also think this was a wake-up call for corporations sending executives and employees all over the country for meetings and training. You might want to buy Zoom stock. My employer has been hosting company-wide town hall meetings with it. Even our church choir director wants to set up group rehearsals on Zoom. :lol:

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I have been on board with teleconferencing for a long time. I have wasted a lot of my life setting around airports. Now they have the technology to make it work. About 20 years ago we tried it with a satellite hook up. It was a nightmare. Everything beamed to the satellite and back, it took about 3 second. Everyone was talking on top of everyone else because of the delay.

Ahlevah said:

Me, too, but I have a feeling things are going to get pretty testy before this is all over, stimulus or not. Probably more than a few landlords are mortgaged to the hilt and need those rent checks coming in to avoid the threat of foreclosure.

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right now most mortgage companies and banks are delaying payments or putting them on the end for up to six months.

ClaraD said:

right now most mortgage companies and banks are delaying payments or putting them on the end for up to six months.

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I was under the incorrect assumption that the Mortgage Insurance they make people take out would kick in at times like this and pay the mortgage. I just talked with a friend of mine in the real estate business and he said that although the mortgage holder is required to pay the premium on these policies until they have paid off 20% of the home's value, they receive no benefit. If they default on the loan, the insurance kicks in and pays the mortgage company. In addition, the mortgage holder is still liable for the defaulted payments, even though they have been picked up by the insurer.

BahamaBob said:

I was under the incorrect assumption that the Mortgage Insurance they make people take out would kick in at times like this and pay the mortgage. I just talked with a friend of mine in the real estate business and he said that although the mortgage holder is required to pay the premium on these policies until they have paid off 20% of the home's value, they receive no benefit. If they default on the loan, the insurance kicks in and pays the mortgage company. In addition, the mortgage holder is still liable for the defaulted payments, even though they have been picked up by the insurer.

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My understanding has always been that the insurer pays a claim only after the lender incurs a permanent loss. It's not going to collect twice. Remember, we're talking about insurance companies. They never pay anything unless they absolutely have to:

When a homeowner defaults and doesn't cure the default within an allowable time period, the home goes into foreclosure. In rare occasions the lender will take the deed on a house in a deed-in-lieu-of-foreclosure transaction. However, for most, the culmination to foreclosure is the auction. Although others can bid for the home, banks bid what is owed and usually get the home. With conventional loans, the bank will list the home for sale. If the home does not sell for at least the mortgage principal remaining, the mortgage insurance will pay the difference. For example, if the mortgage payable was $183,000 and the property sold for $160,000, the PMI will pay the bank the $23,000 difference.

How Much Does Personal Mortgage Insurance Pay the Lender on a Loan Default? | Finance - Zacks

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But, yeah, people think foreclosure gets them off the hook, but that would depend on whether they live in a recourse or a nonrecourse state.

Ahlevah said:

My understanding has always been that the insurer pays a claim only after the lender incurs a permanent loss. It's not going to collect twice. Remember, we're talking about insurance companies. They never pay anything unless they absolutely have to:



But, yeah, people think foreclosure gets them off the hook, but that would depend on whether they live in a recourse or a nonrecourse state.

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I am under the impression that the insurance companies can go after the person or persons who default on the loan. To recoup the amount they paid.

Ahlevah said:

I would say yes, you do, although under the circumstances I think it would be a dick move for a landlord to issue a three-day notice to pay rent or a two-week eviction notice. But, yeah, this is why it is imperative that families set aside funds for emergencies and unforeseen events like this pandemic. You shouldn't demand charity. Living in a private apartment or home owned by someone else isn't a right.

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Sadly we are now in a time where almost everyone needs help. It is not the fault of a renter they can't go to work so why punish them for it? I personally think now is the time for more compassion and less worries about money and who owes who what.

BahamaBob said:

I am under the impression that the insurance companies can go after the person or persons who default on the loan. To recoup the amount they paid.

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That depends. In a nonrecourse state like California, the lender takes the house back and that's the end of it. The property is the entire security for the loan. In a recourse state, the lender or loan guarantor could seek a deficiency judgment for the difference between the loan value and the sale price of the property:

Recourse and non-recourse loans allow lenders to lay claim to assets if borrowers default on their obligations and fail to repay their debts. Lenders are allowed to take possession of any assets used as collateral to secure these loans. Many loans are taken out with one or more assets of a certain value that the lender can take if the borrower does not fulfill their obligation as outlined in the loan agreement.

The primary difference between the two is that a recourse loan favors the lender, while a non-recourse loan benefits the borrower. So the distinction between recourse loans and non-recourse loans comes into play if money is still owed on the debt after the collateral is sold.

Recourse Loans vs. Non-Recourse Loan: What's the Difference?

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Some states make distinctions between the types of property securing the loan. Maybe a primary residence is nonrecourse, while a second home or investment property isn't.

bongsaway said:

It is not the fault of a renter they can't go to work so why punish them for it?

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What's wrong with saving money for emergencies? Or not entering into a lease agreement until you have the funds to pay it for more than a month? We've so conditioned ourselves to borrow and spend that when the gravy train stops things go to **** in a week. I hoped that people would have taken a lesson in frugality after the last recession. Alas, they didn't.

Ahlevah said:

What's wrong with saving money for emergencies? Or not entering into a lease agreement until you have the funds to pay it for more than a month? We've so conditioned ourselves to borrow and spend that when the gravy train stops things go to **** in a week. I hoped that people would have taken a lesson in frugality after the last recession. Alas, they didn't.

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I hope you also feel this way about big multinational corporations, those too big to fail. We bailed them out during the bush administration and now we are going to bail them out again.

Instead we point fingers at each other over a couple thousand dollars when corporations like boeing get millions. We have been conditioned to think an individual getting some money in times of crisis is bad and yet giving millions to business is ok. This is what the republican party has done for america over the decades.

For the people, by the people is now a negative thing.

phattonez said:

If the landlord will literally die without the payment then that's a different story.

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Why are you assuming the renter will die if they are evicted?

Most people have a back up plan and in extreme situations, most people can go live with a family member.

phattonez said:

The landlord has an obligation to give his excess to those in need.

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Where did you get this idea?