View Poll Results: If Bernie doesn't win the nomination, will you vote for the candidate that does?

Voters
30. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    22 73.33%
  • No

    8 26.67%
Page 26 of 27 FirstFirst ... 1624252627 LastLast
Results 251 to 260 of 261

Thread: [W:165] Bernie supporters: If Bernie doesn't win the nomination....

  1. #251
    Generally Inadvisable

    Checkerboard Strangler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:21 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    29,654
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: [W:165] Bernie supporters: If Bernie doesn't win the nomination....

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I'll admit, I'm not certain what this means.



    Yes. If your response to "Hey, Bernie has this history, and it will be a problem for him in the General" is "Well you're just a Red-Baiting Bircher!", then that is an ad hominem fallacy. It doesn't, actually, address the point, it just seeks to delegimize the person making it.
    Nope, because this part of the thread springs from the subject of Cuba, Nicaragua and another couple of banana republics that have been rooted in authoritarianism no matter which side of the spectrum they have ever occupied.
    And you appear to be springboarding that to suggestions that Bernie might be interpreted by some as advancing communist style systems as President. I grant that you said that you suggested that even if not your view, that it might be the view of others.
    But such a suggestion can only go one direction. Using communists and other heavily authoritarian state socialism to describe all Democrats is the wheelhouse of Birchers, and it is the hallmark of all red-baiting gambits.

    "Bernie has praised socialist and communist regimes from time to time ergo Bernie wants a communist healthcare system ergo Bernie is a communist."

    And if you're simply role playing, then it is even further from an ad hominem because it's an indication that the role one is playing is that of a red-baiting Bircher type person. All of this springs from the Birchers. You know it and I know it.
    Such rhetoric is, in point of fact, Bircher rhetoric. It isn't Betty Crocker.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    [W:165] Bernie supporters:  If Bernie doesn't win the nomination.... No. If they think complicated things that they don't deal with in detail are actually simple and if they respond to emotional pulls, that makes them Human.

    You are correct - I do indeed think that is probably a majority of the voter base. I've seen enough surveys of voters in both sides to feel fairly comfortable in that assessment.
    Of course you have. And naturally you seem to think that appealing to the Right is the solution for success.
    I expect nothing less.
    And any time one poses questions that sound like: "Would you be in favor of a healthcare system like Cuba's?" I would fully expect to see the same results myself.

    Now show me this Cuban style system that Bernie wants.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradoxical View Post
    Putin would make a better president than Hillary.
    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    It IS NOT the job of the United States government to protect reporters overseas. It IS the job the United States government to preserve the freedom of the press here in the US.

  2. #252
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:02 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    62,178

    Re: [W:165] Bernie supporters: If Bernie doesn't win the nomination....

    Quote Originally Posted by Checkerboard Strangler View Post
    Nope, because this part of the thread springs from the subject of Cuba, Nicaragua and another couple of banana republics that have been rooted in authoritarianism no matter which side of the spectrum they have ever occupied.
    The ole Iron Law of Oligarchy is a tough one.

    But this discussion isn't really about that. It's about the facts that Bernie has defended, praised, or been a cheerleader for those authoritarian regimes because they were leftist, and this will be a vulnerability for him in the general.


    If Bernie & Co's response to

    [Clip of Bernie praising Castro]
    [Clip of a Cuban Woman tearfully describing what happened to her family]
    [Clip of Bernie declaring that criticism is all right wing propaganda, and that Cuba has good healthcare]
    [Back to the woman]
    [Voice over of Bernie saying "and we're gonna have good health care]

    Is to attack the messenger:

    And you appear to be springboarding that to suggestions that Bernie might be interpreted by some as advancing communist style systems as President. I grant that you said that you suggested that even if not your view, that it might be the view of others.
    But such a suggestion can only go one direction. Using communists and other heavily authoritarian state socialism to describe all Democrats is the wheelhouse of Birchers, and it is the hallmark of all red-baiting gambits.
    ...well, that's not exactly gonna be an effective response, any more than trying to turn it into a debate on the finer distinctions within socialism:

    "Bernie has praised socialist and communist regimes from time to time ergo Bernie wants a communist healthcare system ergo Bernie is a communist."




    And if you're simply role playing, then it is even further from an ad hominem because it's an indication that the role one is playing is that of a red-baiting Bircher type person. All of this springs from the Birchers. You know it and I know it.
    I've dealt with Birchers. And, as I keep telling you (and as you keep ignoring) the difference between the Bircher/Red-Baiting/McCarthy attack you are trying and what we are looking at here is that Bernie is not only on record doing what he being accused of; he defends the actions.

    Such rhetoric is, in point of fact, Bircher rhetoric. It isn't Betty Crocker.
    No. Birchers were conspiracist nutjobs who saw secret socialists everywhere in government. Bernie proudly proclaims himself a socialist, and is on record for decades.

    Of course you have.

    And naturally you seem to think that appealing to the Right is the solution for success.
    No. I think turning an opponents strengths into weaknesses and then maximizing and exploiting those critical vulnerabilities in a targeted fashion is the best means of finding success.

    Bernie has some real vulnerabilities here. But, the first step to shoring up a vulnerability is admitting that you have one. That Bernie and his defenders can't do that doesn't augur well for their ability to effectively address this charge in the general (think, for example, about how ridiculous Trump and his supporters looked when they tried to insist that Trump's call to Ukraine was "perfect", and that only deranged trump-haters could see anything else. Trump and his base was unable to admit to themselves that they had a vulnerability, and it probably got him impeached).

    I expect nothing less.
    And any time one poses questions that sound like: "Would you be in favor of a healthcare system like Cuba's?" I would fully expect to see the same results myself.
    Well, that is an implied question that the Trump campaign will be able to ask using Bernie's own words, so, he should probably have a better response than "all those recordings of me are just right wing propaganda" and accusing the victims of dictators of being part of a group of rightist conspiracy theorists that was last prominent in the 1950s and 60s.
    I feel sorry for people like you so principled
    No, Really. Winter is Coming.

  3. #253
    Sage

    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:48 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    5,969

    Re: [W:165] Bernie supporters: If Bernie doesn't win the nomination....

    Anyone who legitimately believes that going after Sanders for selective praise of specific elements of socialist countries he said in the vicinity of 40-50 years ago is an effective line of attack is more than welcome to their blunder. Red scare Neo-McCarthyism predicated on ancient clips is more likely than not to fall completely flat, especially among an increasingly propaganda conscious public that has, largely thanks to Sanders' efforts, come to associate socialism with popular public services, and regard the usual right wing framing as the insipid and disingenuous politically motivated tripe it is. I think such is likely convince the already faithful, but will achieve little beyond choir preaching.
    "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." -Alberto Brandolini

  4. #254
    Educating the Ignorant
    zimmer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:05 PM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    21,666
    Blog Entries
    25

    Re: [W:165] Bernie supporters: If Bernie doesn't win the nomination....

    Editors corrections in red;

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Enjoy three generations of Originalists and Constitutionalists dominating the courts.
    Thanks Obama... if you hadn’t ****ed up so badly, we wouldn’t be here.
    Democrats
    Destroyers of Liberty.

  5. #255
    Professor

    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:13 PM
    Gender
    Posts
    1,740

    Re: [W:165] Bernie supporters: If Bernie doesn't win the nomination....

    If you can't vote for bernie then vote against Trump!

    Third party is just like voting for Trump!

  6. #256
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:02 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    62,178

    Re: [W:165] Bernie supporters: If Bernie doesn't win the nomination....

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    Anyone who legitimately believes that going after Sanders for selective praise of specific elements of socialist countries he said in the vicinity of 40-50 years ago
    2003 was 40 years ago? 2016 was 40 years ago?

    Man. I've aged pretty well. Time really flies.




    Maybe, if you are going to try to say Bernie doesn't have a vulnerability here, you should red-team yourself, and figure out exactly what he's said and done in this area that the GOP will be able to use.
    I feel sorry for people like you so principled
    No, Really. Winter is Coming.

  7. #257
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:02 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    62,178

    Re: [W:165] Bernie supporters: If Bernie doesn't win the nomination....

    Quote Originally Posted by rickc View Post
    If you can't vote for bernie then vote against Trump!

    Third party is just like voting for Trump!
    That's funny - the Republicans all tell me that voting third party is voting for the Democrat.



    Huh, well, if it's a vote both for Trump and his opponent to vote third party, then, I guess those cancel each other out?
    I feel sorry for people like you so principled
    No, Really. Winter is Coming.

  8. #258
    Sage

    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:48 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    5,969

    Re: [W:165] Bernie supporters: If Bernie doesn't win the nomination....

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    2003 was 40 years ago? 2016 was 40 years ago?

    Man. I've aged pretty well. Time really flies.

    Maybe, if you are going to try to say Bernie doesn't have a vulnerability here, you should red-team yourself, and figure out exactly what he's said and done in this area that the GOP will be able to use.
    The bulk of stuff that I would consider anything close to truly suspect or damaging was yes, said in/around that vicinity.
    "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." -Alberto Brandolini

  9. #259
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:02 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    62,178

    Re: [W:165] Bernie supporters: If Bernie doesn't win the nomination....

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    The bulk of stuff that I would consider anything close to truly suspect or damaging was yes, said in/around that vicinity.
    Hugo Chavez wasn't in charge of Venezuela 50 years ago. When someone has a five and a half decade long history of doing the same thing repeatedly, it's because that's what they do.
    I feel sorry for people like you so principled
    No, Really. Winter is Coming.

  10. #260
    Sage

    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:48 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    5,969

    Re: [W:165] Bernie supporters: If Bernie doesn't win the nomination....

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Hugo Chavez wasn't in charge of Venezuela 50 years ago. When someone has a five and a half decade long history of doing the same thing repeatedly, it's because that's what they do.
    RE: Hugo: The Falsity of the Sanders Venezuela Meme - Quillette
    "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." -Alberto Brandolini

Page 26 of 27 FirstFirst ... 1624252627 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •