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Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

I personally feel transgender individuals are...

  • Total voters
    58
Yes i did.

You seemed to have missed this part completely:

Even though the process is really brain-muscle memory or motor memory, the colloquial expression "muscle memory" is commonly used.
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:roll:
 
Kayleigh Katz said:
This feels like arguing with someone that thinks the earth is flat.

A brain is a chunk of meat.
A mind is consciousness, the ability to perceive.
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bwahahaha

Well there's tons of evidence which suggests that once your "chunk of meat" is completely messed up your ability to think and perceive is messed up as well.

And yes it is very much like arguing with someone who thinks the earth is flat.
 
Kayleigh Katz said:
This feels like arguing with someone that thinks the earth is flat.

A brain is a chunk of meat.
A mind is consciousness, the ability to perceive.
Click to expand...

The genitals are a chunk of meat, too.
I guess what it boils down to is, which chunk of meat is it easier to alter, when the two are so misaligned that the possessor of said chunks of meat cannot live happily or healthily with the dissonance?
 
talloulou said:
WTF? Hormones don't think. They don't interpret. They may affect the brains but they don't become "thinking centers."

We DO NOT have "other rooms" where interpretation/thinking takes place. That all happens in the brain.

Hormones do not dictate the way you think. Hormones affect your system which affects the messages sent to your brain via your nervous system.



There's nothing scientific about suggesting there are "other rooms" that think and interpret other than the brain in the human body.
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You're incredulity is a product of your belief that the brain is sending commands because it is the one doing the interpreting. A belief that I disagree with.

The system we are talking about uses molecules to communicate. How do you figure which end is giving a command? Because you see, to command is to imply thinking. However, when you're hungry, your brain doesn't command your stomach to feel hungry. It's the other way around. No food in the stomach sends a message to the brain, then you feel hungry. As with hormones. "Hey, I'm old enough now, start growing some pubs down there please!" and the brain complies (courtesy of the hypothalamus.)

How do you figure which end is giving the command? Personally, I believe it is bidirectional/multi-directional. Meaning that the entire system itself is the "mind."
 
1069 said:
The genitals are a chunk of meat, too.
I guess what it boils down to is, which chunk of meat is it easier to alter, when the two are so misaligned that the possessor of said chunks of meat cannot live happily or healthily with the dissonance?
Click to expand...

Well if the dysphoria is in the mind and the mind is something other than all these chunks of meat then perhaps they should just call in a witch dr.
 
Lightdemon said:
You're incredulity is a product of your belief that the brain is sending commands because it is the one doing the interpreting. A belief that I disagree with.

The system we are talking about uses molecules to communicate. How do you figure which end is giving a command? Because you see, to command is to imply thinking. However, when you're hungry, your brain doesn't command your stomach to feel hungry. It's the other way around. No food in the stomach sends a message to the brain, then you feel hungry. As with hormones. "Hey, I'm old enough now, start growing some pubs down there please!" and the brain complies (courtesy of the hypothalamus.)

How do you figure which end is giving the command? Personally, I believe it is bidirectional/multi-directional. Meaning that the entire system itself is the "mind."
Click to expand...

Hey do you know when you're like completely dead your fingernails continue to grow???

The brain is the thinking command center. The interpretation center. The mind. The brain and the mind are one in the same.

You can argue otherwise but you're just telling me your random thoughts and claiming they have scientific backing when they don't. We might as well talk about aliens, it would be more fun.
 
talloulou said:
Yes i did.

You seemed to have missed this part completely:

:roll:
Click to expand...

Well, you and I both know that wikipedia is open for interpreation. ;)


What I wanted you to do was put 2 and 2 together. Phantom Limb and Muscle Memory. Care to give it a try?
 
talloulou said:
Well if the dysphoria is in the mind and the mind is something other than all these chunks of meat then perhaps they should just call in a witch dr.
Click to expand...

I don't believe I made any assertion suggesting the mind to be "something other than all these chunks of meat".
"Mind" is just another word for consciousness; consciousness originates in the brain (although it's possible to have a corporeal brain, but no consciousness, as with patients in vegetative states). It certainly isn't possible to have consciousness without a brain.
 
talloulou said:
Hey do you know when you're like completely dead your fingernails continue to grow???

The brain is the thinking command center. The interpretation center. The mind. The brain and the mind are one in the same.

You can argue otherwise but you're just telling me your random thoughts and claiming they have scientific backing when they don't. We might as well talk about aliens, it would be more fun.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry I caused you to be angry. But now you're just yelling your opinion at me.

You didn't give me the courtesy of addressing any of my points in that post.
 
Hey do you know when you're like completely dead your fingernails continue to grow???
Click to expand...

That isn't true.
it's an urban legend/ old wives' tale.

Google's your friend.
 
Lightdemon said:
Well, you and I both know that wikipedia is open for interpreation. ;)


What I wanted you to do was put 2 and 2 together. Phantom Limb and Muscle Memory. Care to give it a try?
Click to expand...

OMG. You cited the article. You linked to it. If you don't have faith in it then don't post it.

As far as giving it a try I don't need to. Read the article. It seemed clear as day to me and completely supported my argument. I don't know why you posted it. The very first paragraph supports everything I've been telling you. Motor memory is a product of the brain.
 
1069 said:
That isn't true.
it's an urban legend/ old wives' tale.

Google's your friend.
Click to expand...

Holy ****. I think I learned that in school. :shock: So we dehydrate and it just makes it look like our fingernails grew? That's freaking nasty.
 
Lightdemon said:
I'm sorry I caused you to be angry. But now you're just yelling your opinion at me.

You didn't give me the courtesy of addressing any of my points in that post.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry. I don't mean to yell. It's just frustrating to me that you and the newbie think that the mind and brain aren't one in the same. It should be amusing. I mean you tell me there are "other rooms" or some such nonsense and she comes along and says I'm like the ones who thought the earth was flat. Then she says something goofy like, "But the brain is a chunk of meat!" As if her beautiful mind is too magical to be housed within a chunk of meat.

There's gotta be something better than this on tv.

But I did learn something tonight. Thanks 10! I swear I had a teacher literally teach me that ****. :roll:
 
talloulou said:
OMG. You cited the article. You linked to it. If you don't have faith in it then don't post it.

As far as giving it a try I don't need to. Read the article. It seemed clear as day to me and completely supported my argument. I don't know why you posted it. The very first paragraph supports everything I've been telling you. Motor memory is a product of the brain.
Click to expand...

Sigh...

The article I cited was to give you a general background, which is what wikipedia is good for. What it isn't good for is claiming truth from it, as we all know.

Phantom limb is interpreted in many ways. For instance, I can argue against wikipedia and say that because the end neurons are sending a message to the brain, which is the cause of the sensation of phantom limb.

Before you respond, realize that the motor cortex is not the command center, it is just reflective to the peripheral nervous system. Shown here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/13/Sensory_Homunculus.png
When electrically probed in the corresponding areas, you will feel a sensation in that area. A probe in the pinky would cause a reaction in the brain in the corresponding area. So which way is it? The pinky giving the command "Hey I feel something!" or is the brain saying that?

This type of thinking isn't my own random thoughts. It's what contemporary psychologists have been struggling with in recent years. The old ideology that the brain is the "command center" is outdated, as is Freud and Skinner. Theories get replaced by more accurate ones. It's just science.
 
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But I did learn something tonight. Thanks 10! I swear I had a teacher literally teach me that ****.
Click to expand...

You're welcome.
There are some benefits to being a drop-out.
They don't have an opportunity to teach you bull****.
 
Lightdemon said:
Sigh...

The article I cited was to give you a general background, which is what wikipedia is good for. What it isn't good for is claiming truth from it, as we all know.

Phantom limb is interpreted in many ways. For instance, I can argue against wikipedia and say that because the end neurons are sending a message to the brain, which is the cause of the sensation of phantom limb.

Before you respond, realize that the motor cortex is not the command center, it is just reflective to the peripheral nervous system. Shown here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/13/Sensory_Homunculus.png
When electrically probed in the corresponding areas, you will feel a sensation in that area. A probe in the pinky would cause a reaction in the brain in the corresponding area. So which way is it? The pinky giving the command "Hey I feel something!" or is the brain saying that?

This type of thinking isn't my own random thoughts. It's what contemporary psychologists have been struggling with in recent years. The old ideology that the brain is the "command center" is outdated, as is Freud and Skinner. Theories get replaced by more accurate ones. It's just science.
Click to expand...

Look I don't know what to tell you.

Basically if the nervous system is damaged and fails to send a message to the brain the brain doesn't have a clue what's happening. The nerves don't think on their own which is why the message must get to the brain to be thought about or interpreted.

If you have no feeling in your foot your brain has no idea if your foot is being touched, if your foot is on fire, if your foot is getting cut open, etc.

The message has to get to the brain otherwise you don't know what's happening. Your foot can't tell you what's happening. It can't think on its own. It has to deliver the message to the brain. If the brain doesn't get the message for whatever reason you will have no thoughts about it whatsoever. The message won't be interpreted or received somewhere else. It must get to the brain in order to be acknowledged on a conscious level.
 
talloulou said:
Look I don't know what to tell you.

Basically if the nervous system is damaged and fails to send a message to the brain the brain doesn't have a clue what's happening. The nerves don't think on their own which is why the message must get to the brain to be thought about or interpreted.

If you have no feeling in your foot your brain has no idea if your foot is being touched, if your foot is on fire, if your foot is getting cut open, etc.

The message has to get to the brain otherwise you don't know what's happening. Your foot can't tell you what's happening. It can't think on its own. It has to deliver the message to the brain. If the brain doesn't get the message for whatever reason you will have no thoughts about it whatsoever. The message won't be interpreted or received somewhere else. It must get to the brain in order to be acknowledged on a conscious level.
Click to expand...

Exactly, which is why I suggest it is bidirectional or multi-directional. A message is sent from one place to a second place.

The way you have argued just now does not support that the brain is the command center. It only supports that it is a component of the dialogue that is taking place.

In phantom limb, as I said before, the peripheral nervous system has not reconciled with the brain's sensory/motor cortex (the picture I linked earlier) because it has not been corrected. Essentially the brain doesn't know it lost an arm, which is why people still feel the non-existent limb. Therefore, in order to let it know, the arm (peripheral NS) must send a message to the brain so that rewiring may take place. Which means the command came from the peripheral nervous system via the process of Muscle Memory, which if you recall is repetitious motor activity that becomes automatic. In other words, muscle memory is a way of "re-wiring" your brain. Which is again taking commands from the peripheral who is doing the thinking.
 
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Felicity said:
Captain said it is a disorder that occurs in the brain prior to development of the sex organs. In the normal process, the two would match--if it is a brain issue, then the "injury" that may need "repair" occurred in the brain and has nothing to do with the genetic expression of "male-ness" or "female-ness."
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No, I never said it was a disorder.
 
Felicity said:
Do you not agree that it is called Gender Identity Disorder?
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You were responding to this post:

CaptainCourtesy said:
It depends on how you understand gender. One school of thought is to define gender by one's sexual organs. Another is that gender has its basis in the brain, the formation of which predates the formation of the sex organs and is independent of them. This would negate the "delusion" argument.
Click to expand...

I made no mention of a disorder, here. The disorder is caused by the incongruity between how the brain processes gender, based on the research that indicates that gender may be understood there before the formation of sex organs vs. the genital biology of gender. One can recover from the disorder through sex reassignment.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
You were responding to this post:



I made no mention of a disorder, here. The disorder is caused by the incongruity between how the brain processes gender, based on the research that indicates that gender may be understood there before the formation of sex organs vs. the genital biology of gender. One can recover from the disorder through sex reassignment.
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Do these same researchers argue that the embryo is not a person because it's thalmo-cortical connections aren't hooked up and therefore no actual "perception" of anything can occur in the "brain" prior to 21 weeks? Just trying to be consistent, you know....


Anyway--DNA is a fact. If DNA says make male parts, it does. If the brain/mind tells the person differently, it is either a delusion of the mind, or an organic problem in the brain. It seems you are trying to claim both and neither depending on which position you are arguing against and those of us who are trying to see how mutilating healthy flesh "cures" the gender perception just want a straight answer (no pun intended).
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
You were responding to this post:



I made no mention of a disorder, here. The disorder is caused by the incongruity between how the brain processes gender, based on the research that indicates that gender may be understood there before the formation of sex organs vs. the genital biology of gender. One can recover from the disorder through sex reassignment.
Click to expand...

Then why did John Hopkins find that the psychological conditions were still present post op and while many claim to be pleased with their sex change and not regret it their was no improvement with the psychological aspects of their condition.

The idea that they're "recovered" post op is overly simple and hardly backed up by large extensive studies.
 
Felicity said:
Do these same researchers argue that the embryo is not a person because it's thalmo-cortical connections aren't hooked up and therefore no actual "perception" of anything can occur in the "brain" prior to 21 weeks? Just trying to be consistent, you know....


Anyway--DNA is a fact. If DNA says make male parts, it does. If the brain/mind tells the person differently, it is either a delusion of the mind, or an organic problem in the brain.
Click to expand...

Again, the body does not dictate identity. You are ignoring XX males, and XY females. If DNA is a fact, then those born with XX shouldn't have penises, and yet they do. So what are they? Women or men? Do you tell them what their gender is? Or do you allow them to tell you?

It seems you are trying to claim both and neither depending on which position you are arguing against and those of us who are trying to see how mutilating healthy flesh "cures" the gender perception just want a straight answer (no pun intended).
Click to expand...

It isn't a delusion. A delusion would imply believing in something false. Since you cannot dictate another person's gender identity, you cannot say it is false. Thus you cannot assume it is delusional.

It is an organic problem, but it isn't solved through brain surgery. As I've shown you already, healing the mind doesn't necessarily involve cutting open the brain (Phantom Limb).
 
Lightdemon said:
Again, the body does not dictate identity. You are ignoring XX males, and XY females. If DNA is a fact, then those born with XX shouldn't have penises, and yet they do. So what are they? Women or men? Do you tell them what their gender is? Or do you allow them to tell you?
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XX male syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Had to look that one up. In the rare case of a hermaphrodite--THAT person gets to choose. It's a biological disorder that is physically evidenced in the sex organs. That would be a deformity in the genitals that would need repair.


It isn't a delusion. A delusion would imply believing in something false. Since you cannot dictate another person's gender identity, you cannot say it is false. Thus you cannot assume it is delusional.
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It's not how I feel about my genitals and organs that make me female--or how I feel about not having a penis. It's the FACT OF my genitals and organs that dictate my sex. How I "feel" about it is something else entirely. Gender points to how I identify to the "normal" expression of sexual traits that are genetically female. People are people--the way they act and feel is entirely subjective. But "male" or "female" is not--it's fact.


It is an organic problem, but it isn't solved through brain surgery. As I've shown you already, healing the mind doesn't necessarily involve cutting open the brain (Phantom Limb).
Click to expand...
Phantom limb simply isn't a good example--the limb once was there. In GID, those organs that one desires are simply not a fact and never were--it is entirely a delusion that one is another sex in "reality"--no...only in the delusion.
 
Felicity said:
XX male syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Had to look that one up. In the rare case of a hermaphrodite--THAT person gets to choose. It's a biological disorder that is physically evidenced in the sex organs. That would be a deformity in the genitals that would need repair.
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No, I believe you're wrong. XX males and XY females are not hermaphrodites. As they do not possess both gonads.

But what's the underlying notion here? Isn't it the fact that the person get's to choose an identity?

It doesn't matter if that person is a hermaphrodite, an XX male, or a transsexual, or perfectly normal human being. What we have here is the freedom to choose an identity. This throws out the argument of delusion in GID. It isn't that they are delusional of their identity, it's that you are refusing to accept their identity as valid.

It's not how I feel about my genitals and organs that make me female--or how I feel about not having a penis. It's the FACT OF my genitals and organs that dictate my sex. How I "feel" about it is something else entirely. Gender points to how I identify to the "normal" expression of sexual traits that are genetically female. People are people--the way they act and feel is entirely subjective. But "male" or "female" is not--it's fact.
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And that's the disorder. The sex (penis or vagina) doesn't reconcile with the identity. The question that we've been pounding out in this thread is whether to fix the identity or fix the sex. To fix the identity is to assume it is a delusion, which I've argued against, and shown you why it isn't a delusion. To fix the sex is simple corrective surgery.


Phantom limb simply isn't a good example--the limb once was there. In GID, those organs that one desires are simply not a fact and never were--it is entirely a delusion that one is another sex in "reality"--no...only in the delusion.
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You are still misunderstanding why I am presenting Phantom Limb to you. I am not comparing the two, I know full well that they are categorically different. I am showing you that healing the mind doesn't equate to brain surgery. That corrective surgery is a legitimate resolution to GID. And that it isn't as you say, "cutting/mutilating healthy flesh." Just because the operation doesn't operate on the brain, doesn't mean it doesn't heal the mind (i.e. Prosthetics for Phantom Limb).
 
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