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Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

I personally feel transgender individuals are...


  • Total voters
    58
Yes, you have it completely misunderstood. After what you just spewed at me, you little tramp, don't expect that I am going to have any intention of polite discussion with you. **** off.
And what did I spew? That you are gay, that's well known; that you are married to your gay partner, a privilege Republicans would like to strip you of, also well known; that you're position on transgender seems odd because of your homosexuality and the problems you've likely faced with tolerance and acceptance; well we're learning about that here. Where is there any spewing? I think you should be shown tolerance and acceptance, and so should transgenders. :2wave:
 
Hey jallman, I'm debating. Did you forget that on a debate site people may have other opinions counter to your own? I did offer my opinion; it's stupid to give a **** about what other people choose to do to themselves especially if they do it in a manner to feel more comfortable with who they are. Here's a continuation of my opinion; it ain't none of your business what people choose to do in this case, their property their rules. Here is more of my opinion; social engineering prudes need to butt out! People should be free to do as they like so long as they ain't hurting anyone else in the process.

Yes yes yes...because that whole libertarian anarchy thing is the end all of every debate. Everyone just gets to do whatever they want to do despite the consequences.

Ain't buying into your social anarchy schtick, Ikari. Medical professionals should be bound by ethics. It's not like going to a body shop and deciding whether a spoiler will look nice on your car or not...this is a human body and invasive surgical procedures should be undertaken with retraint and care.

Further, it's not in anyone's interest to have doctor's selling pipe dreams to the mentally unstable. It's a devaluing of humanity when such occurs.
 
That's all very nice and libertarian.

heheh, it is isn't it.

My concerns stem from the belief that all forms of dysphoria have a mental component. Surgical alterations are usually permanent while a variety of mental illnesses are not. A guy who absolutely feels that he mentally cannot live with his penis may not in fact be as hysterical if given time and treatment of the deeper mental issues. What the man wants is to be made a woman. This is not doable so ****ing around with his genitals with a knife is insane. Mentally ill people shouldn't be exploited. Depressed people especially shouldn't be exploited. Those are my only concerns.

Fair enough. But I think specifically as it relates to this case that many people who eventually do decide to go through with this surgery have sought other help, have examined themselves deeply, and have made other strives eventually concluding that their physical manifestation does not match their mental/emotional manifestation. Thus they choose to go ahead and change their physical form to match their mental and emotional form.

Now if you want to talk about suicide and such, I think your points become even more applicable because some self-destructive behavior such as suicide is done more on a spur of a moment thing. If one receives proper help it is very possible to get them over the stage and into a more healthy mental state. That being said, I don't think suicide should be illegal and I have no problem with doctor assisted suicide. Leave me the hell out of it though cause I like existing....it's about all I can do well.
 
And what did I spew? That you are gay, that's well known; that you are married to your gay partner, a privilege Republicans would like to strip you of, also well known; that you're position on transgender seems odd because of your homosexuality and the problems you've likely faced with tolerance and acceptance; well we're learning about that here. Where is there any spewing? I think you should be shown tolerance and acceptance, and so should transgenders. :2wave:

I'd just like it noted that I'm not intolerant of men who want to undergo gender reassignment surgery or women who have breast implants. I'm just concerned that they're being sold an illusion for profit during a time when mentally they're a bit hysterical and suffering from dysphoria. Intolerance would suggest disgust or hatred of them when in reality I'm concerned for them (when they have a desire to do bodily harm) and compassionately against watching drs. take advantage of the mentally ill.
 
Yes yes yes...because that whole libertarian anarchy thing is the end all of every debate. Everyone just gets to do whatever they want to do despite the consequences.

Ain't buying into your social anarchy schtick, Ikari. Medical professionals should be bound by ethics. It's not like going to a body shop and deciding whether a spoiler will look nice on your car or not...this is a human body and invasive surgical procedures should be undertaken with retraint and care.

Further, it's not in anyone's interest to have doctor's selling pipe dreams to the mentally unstable. It's a devaluing of humanity when such occurs.

ANARCHY ANARCHY ANARCHY!!!!!

I'm not an anarchist, BTW. Perchance minarchist is a better term, but definitely not into the whole anarchy thing. Medical professionals are bound by ethics. They probably ain't gonna let someone die if they have the power to stop it. But specifically as it relates to this topic I don't know if there is an ethics question. The brain does a lot of crap, and we can't understand it all. Is it really inconceivable that one's physical manifestation doesn't match their mental/emotional? Why is this a "disease" other than the fact that some have merely labeled it as such. Less you're actually a medical professional, a neurologist or psychologist; than your definitions of the transgendered are merely engineered to match pre-conceived notions you have.

If someone were truly able to feel better about themselves, to interact better with society, by undergoing surgery which would change their outward appearance to match their mental and emotional; would you really tell them they are wrong for doing so? Wrong for wanting to be happy?

I think that in the end there's a lot going on inside that brain that neither you nor I know or can quantify. What we define as normal is only normal because of our experiences and because our own chemicals in our brain tell us so. Someone else's chemicals may be different and that doesn't necessarily make them wrong or bad or insane; just different. There are lots of different combination which can go on inside the head. To pretend that they are the result of mental insanity when you have no information, proof, or knowledge of the subject I believe is overstepping boundaries.
 
If you've truly accepted my premise, then you shouldn't have arrive to the conclusion of self harm. If we can determine their gender identity, then the solution is to change the body. Since it is no longer the mind that is unfit for the body, that means the body is unfit for the mind.

Therefore it isn't self harm, it's corrective surgery.

It would only be "corrective" surgery if it was creating more than an illusion. A woman with implants doesn't have big tits. She's got balloons. A man who lopes off his penis isn't suddenly a woman, he's a man with no penis.

There was no correction.

That's why I question the legitimacy of the alteration, the legitimacy of considering it a cure or form of healing. I also frankly find it hard to believe the initial dysphoria up and goes away post op. I think, since reality hasn't changed, the dysphoria is likely still present and now has added features of bodily mutilation present in the case. I think there's a decent case to be made that the drs. should be held accountable for maltreatment of the patient. When the patient was in a hysterical mental state the drs. surgical interventions become even more malicious and questionable.
 
ANARCHY ANARCHY ANARCHY!!!!!

I'm not an anarchist, BTW. Perchance minarchist is a better term, but definitely not into the whole anarchy thing. Medical professionals are bound by ethics. They probably ain't gonna let someone die if they have the power to stop it. But specifically as it relates to this topic I don't know if there is an ethics question. The brain does a lot of crap, and we can't understand it all. Is it really inconceivable that one's physical manifestation doesn't match their mental/emotional? Why is this a "disease" other than the fact that some have merely labeled it as such. Less you're actually a medical professional, a neurologist or psychologist; than your definitions of the transgendered are merely engineered to match pre-conceived notions you have.

If someone were truly able to feel better about themselves, to interact better with society, by undergoing surgery which would change their outward appearance to match their mental and emotional; would you really tell them they are wrong for doing so? Wrong for wanting to be happy?

I think that in the end there's a lot going on inside that brain that neither you nor I know or can quantify. What we define as normal is only normal because of our experiences and because our own chemicals in our brain tell us so. Someone else's chemicals may be different and that doesn't necessarily make them wrong or bad or insane; just different. There are lots of different combination which can go on inside the head. To pretend that they are the result of mental insanity when you have no information, proof, or knowledge of the subject I believe is overstepping boundaries.

I don't know...it seems a very simple equation to me:

Delusion: suffering from a false perception of reality.
Penis and Testicles: Male Gender
Vagina and ovaries: Female Gender

When Penis and Testicles thinks it's female = delusion.
When Vagina and Ovaries thinks it's male = delusion.

Delusion is mental defect. I don't think surgery on the penis is really what it takes to alleviate a problem in the mind. But that's just my opinion.
 
That's my point. There's no proof that it does improve the emotional state or well being of the patient.

But there is proof that it does, in fact, improve their health, mood, and behavior.

IJ TRANSGENDER - Gender Role Reversal among Postoperative Transsexuals

Sex reassignment surgery (SRS) is an effective method to treat the most extreme form of gender dysphoria, often referred to as transsexualism. Overall satisfactory post-operative results are reported of 87% for male-to-female transsexuals (MFs) and 97% for female-to-male transsexuals (FMs) (Green and Fleming, 1990). However, the treatment is not equally successful in all cases. In spite of strict prior selection and counseling during the treatment, an estimated 1 to 2 percent of those treated express regret about the SRS, be it for different reasons.
 
Further, it's not in anyone's interest to have doctor's selling pipe dreams to the mentally unstable. It's a devaluing of humanity when such occurs.

I would have to agree with this. There has to be a degree of mental instability going on that is being covered up simply because people, in their haste to please some weak politically correct ideal, has accepted this as "normal."
 
I'd just like it noted that I'm not intolerant of men who want to undergo gender reassignment surgery or women who have breast implants. I'm just concerned that they're being sold an illusion for profit during a time when mentally they're a bit hysterical and suffering from dysphoria. Intolerance would suggest disgust or hatred of them when in reality I'm concerned for them (when they have a desire to do bodily harm) and compassionately against watching drs. take advantage of the mentally ill.
Which is exactly the rationale we were all fed about gays. Sorry, it was bogus then, its bogus now.
 
Which is exactly the rationale we were all fed about gays. Sorry, it was bogus then, its bogus now.

No...gay is gay. Gay is liking your own gender. Gay is not wishing you were of the other gender.
 
I would have to agree with this. There has to be a degree of mental instability going on that is being covered up simply because people, in their haste to please some weak politically correct ideal, has accepted this as "normal."

Who ever made the claim that it was "normal?"
 
Who ever made the claim that it was "normal?"

Well it does seem that there is this push, even in this thread, to "normalize" it and treat the situation as if it isn't a profound mental defect.
 
Well it does seem that there is this push, even in this thread, to "normalize" it and treat the situation as if it isn't a profound mental defect.

"Normalize" it? Get real. No one is promoting other people to be Transsexuals.

The people who have been arguing with you over this are saying that Transsexuals shouldn't be discriminated against. Which by the way, you still haven't fully addressed.

Not only that, you go off onto a different issue and started talking about the "pretend" disorder. Which you horribly distort the definition of the disorder with words like self mutilation.

I won't lampoon you any further in this thread Jallman. You will be ignored.
 
I don't know...it seems a very simple equation to me:

Delusion: suffering from a false perception of reality.
Penis and Testicles: Male Gender
Vagina and ovaries: Female Gender

When Penis and Testicles thinks it's female = delusion.
When Vagina and Ovaries thinks it's male = delusion.

Delusion is mental defect. I don't think surgery on the penis is really what it takes to alleviate a problem in the mind. But that's just my opinion.

But the development of the child in uterus is based on a very balanced level of hormones and chemicals. If the wrong hormone is sent or not sent at the right time, different things can happen. Is it delusion? Or is it the reality of the chemical makeup of the individual. And if one can, through surgery, match their outside and their inside; should that be considered deviant or wrong? Reality is as the brain tells us it is, if something happened during development of the fetus which led later on to gender confusion or whatever; how is that not the reality for that individual? And what about hermaphrodites? What are they exactly?
 
But the development of the child in uterus is based on a very balanced level of hormones and chemicals. If the wrong hormone is sent or not sent at the right time, different things can happen. Is it delusion? Or is it the reality of the chemical makeup of the individual. And if one can, through surgery, match their outside and their inside; should that be considered deviant or wrong? Reality is as the brain tells us it is, if something happened during development of the fetus which led later on to gender confusion or whatever; how is that not the reality for that individual? And what about hermaphrodites? What are they exactly?

I'd say hermaphrodites are a grotesque anatomical anomaly that should be corrected later in life once the true sex of the subject has been determined.

And I see what you are saying about hormone levels, etc. However, the end result is either a penis or a vagina and that is the sex of the child. It makes no sense to me to indulge gender make believe and mutilation of the genitalia in order to affect a reality that isn't real at all.
 
But there is proof that it does, in fact, improve their health, mood, and behavior.

IJ TRANSGENDER - Gender Role Reversal among Postoperative Transsexuals

But there are many who regret it. Also, an even bigger concern that I have is that especially for male to female reassignments there seems to be a general push to do them younger and younger.

The hypothesis is that the younger it is done the more successful it will be with success measured by the "passing" rate for movement into the alternate gender. If sexual reassignment occurs prior to voice changing and facial hair growth in boys they are less noticeable as transsexual people. The better they are able to pass for the opposite sex the happier they are with their surgical outcome. Given those two things the theory is that it's wise to get the whole process started in the teenage years and this is happening more commonly worldwide.

I have huge issues with that. I do understand that much of it may be my incomprehension of what they are suffering, what their dysphoria entails.
However I know enough about teenagers to completely reject the notion that those are the years when "best" decisions are made.

Also if post operative happiness is directly tied to how successfully one "passes" for the opposite sex then there's no question that the aim is to allow the fantasy in favor of the reality. Transsexuals often talk on their website of becoming a "real woman" or a "real man" when that's just not doable. If they don't begin the hormones at a fairly young age and undergo surgery fairly young it's quite likely they'll never pass socially as the opposite sex. In which case it's hard to tell if their continued depression is the result of society rejecting them or the result of them buying into the fantasy themselves only to have it come up short. There's also questions about their continued ability to enjoy sexual intercourse with females to males tending to be particularly dissatisfied and one wonders if the illusion was worth the cost of loss of sexual satisfaction.

It's hard not to cling to the notion that they'd be better off forgetting the knife, foregoing the illusions, and learning to deal with the bodies they have.
 
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But there are many who regret it. Also, an even bigger concern that I have is that especially for male to female reassignments there seems to be a general push to do them younger and younger.

Well sure, there may be many who regret it. Precisely the 1-2% that regret it. But the vast majority, the +95% find the operation at least satisfactory. Still much better from where they started, imo.

Again, I am only saying this to show you that this corrective surgery (while not being a "cure") is a way Transsexuals can resolve their problem. Also, I should add that it isn't the only means to solve their problem either.


The hypothesis is that the younger it is done the more successful it will be with success measured by the "passing" rate for movement into the alternate gender. If sexual reassignment occurs prior to voice changing and facial hair growth in boys they are less noticeable as transsexual people. The better they are able to pass for the opposite sex the happier they are with their surgical outcome. Given those two things the theory is that it's wise to get the whole process started in the teenage years and this is happening more commonly worldwide.

I have huge issues with that. I do understand that much of it may be my incomprehension of what they are suffering, what they're dysphoria entails.
However I know enough about teenagers to completely reject the notion that those are the years when "best" decisions are made.

I also share your concern because at that point, they are still children. I do have problems with doctors and psychologists who suggest parents to act quickly for "their children sake."

Also if post operative happiness is directly tied to how successfully one "passes" for the opposite sex then there's no question that the aim is to allow the fantasy in favor of the reality.

Happiness is also dependent on how they view themselves, just as much as how they want the public to perceive them. I find this true not only for Transsexuals, but also for people in general.

Transsexuals often talk on their website of becoming a "real woman" or a "real man" when that's just not doable. If they don't begin the hormones at a fairly young age and undergo surgery fairly young it's quite likely they'll never pass socially as the opposite sex. In which case it's hard to tell if they're continued depression is the result of society rejecting them or the result of them buying into the fantasy themselves only to have it come up short. There's also questions about their continued ability to enjoy sexual intercourse with females to males tending to be particularly dissatisfied and one wonders if the illusion was worth the cost of loss of sexual satisfaction.

It's hard not to cling to the notion that they'd be better off forgetting the knife, foregoing the illusions, and learning to deal with the bodies they have.

And some take that route. But they aren't any better off than those who decided to go through surgery. The thing of it all is that each individual chooses their own course of action. The ones who chose surgery may as well be happy as those who did not choose surgery.
 
Who ever made the claim that it was "normal?"

I don't know. It appears that this is what people are wanting it to be. The argument is that they should be able to do what ever they like to their bodies. Isn't this an argument for what is and is not supposed to be normal?

You see Boys Don't Cry? Hillary Swank was awarded the 1999 Academy Award for Best Actress. Hollywood seems to making the cry for normalcy.
 
I don't know. It appears that this is what people are wanting it to be. The argument is that they should be able to do what ever they like to their bodies. Isn't this an argument for what is and is not supposed to be normal?

No, it certainly isn't normal. The argument is that they should be treated with the same respect as those who are "normal." You know, like Amendment 14.
 
I don't know. It appears that this is what people are wanting it to be. The argument is that they should be able to do what ever they like to their bodies. Isn't this an argument for what is and is not supposed to be normal?

You see Boys Don't Cry? Hillary Swank was awarded the 1999 Academy Award for Best Actress. Hollywood seems to making the cry for normalcy.

Oh come on. Surely that's not fair. Hollywood loves to give out Academy Awards for playing retard, losing or gaining astronomical amounts of weight, and Hollywoods biggest love of all is when hot chicks play ugly chick parts.

Surely that doesn't mean Hollywood is promoting retards and ugly. :mrgreen:
 
No, it certainly isn't normal. The argument is that they should be treated with the same respect as those who are "normal." You know, like Amendment 14.

I don't think anyone has made any argument contrary to that assertion, so far.
 
No, it certainly isn't normal. The argument is that they should be treated with the same respect as those who are "normal." You know, like Amendment 14.

Mental disturbia is a matter of human nature. People are born retarded all the time and we accept that they need special help. Transgender individuals should be in this category as well.

What's amendment 14? I have 4 guns.
 
I don't think anyone has made any argument contrary to that assertion, so far.

You made that assertion when you suggested that Transsexuals shouldn't have certain type of jobs. or did you already forget about this post?

Please note I didn't say "not safe", I said "can be reasonably barred from". Just like they could be reasonably barred from serving in the military or on a police force.

I wouldn't want someone who was guilty of hot check schemes, petty theft, or even a pathological liar (which I could easily see a transexual becoming if they become accustomed to living with so great a lie just to assimilate) working with children, in addition to other sensitive jobs.
 
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