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Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

I personally feel transgender individuals are...


  • Total voters
    58
I chose exactly the words I intended to use because they are the words that most accurately describe the issue.

Wrong. Simply because those who suffer the disorder are not "pretending." Your notion that they "pretend" to be someone they are not is basically mocking the disorder. Your lack of seriousness is duly noted.

If the bits and pieces are male and the sufferer of Gender Pretend Disorder wants them to be female, it is make believe because the bits and pieces are still male until they are surgically mutilated to fit the pretend perception the sufferer of Gender Pretend Disorder has of itself.

And you are the judge of that? You get to tell what people think they are? Do you get to decide who they should be based on their genitalia? Does having a dick and ***** define who you are?

Your perception of yourself begins with your perception, not your body.

If you're serious about discussing Gender Identity Disorder, could you at the very least refer to it with its proper name.
 
Exactly a dickless man is not a woman. Big fake tits are big fake tits. Pretend was the perfect word choice.

Not all transsexuals undergo surgery. But nevertheless still suffer from GID. Again, it begins with their self-perception, not their bodies.
 
From M.D's, Ph.D's to Software Engineers.

Transsexual Women's Successes:

Approximately 30,000 to 40,000 postoperative transsexual women live in the United States, and many thousands more are now in the process of gender transition here. These numbers are much larger than commonly assumed by the public because a veil of invisibility hides the true nature and extent of the transsexual condition. Especially hidden are large numbers of highly successful women who have fully transitioned. The reason is that most successful women live in "stealth mode" or are "woodworked". They leave their pasts behind and hide in plain sight in order to avoid social stigmatization and get on with their new lives. Their personal successes insure that they assimilate and blend right into society.

The social invisibility of successful women who have undergone gender corrections supports the notion that male-to-female transsexualism is extremely rare. However, intense transsexualism is not all that uncommon. Recent calculations indicate that the condition occurs in about 1 out of every 250 to 500 children born as boys, and that about 1 in every 2500 males in the U.S. has already undergone surgical sex reassignment*. Transsexualism is thus more than twice as prevalent as multiple sclerosis (MS), cerebral palsy or cleft lip/palate conditions.

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PHOTO GALLERY PAGE 1

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Not all transsexuals undergo surgery. But nevertheless still suffer from GID. Again, it begins with their self-perception, not their bodies.

Yeah, especially transgendered women.
A lot of them merely have their breasts removed, take male hormones, and work out a lot, which pretty much makes them look superficially like men (facial hair, deepened voices, etc). The hormones- excuse the graphicness- enlarge their clitorises somewhat, making them sort of like really small dicks, which apparently can become erect, although of course they can't ejaculate or pee out of them like men do, since their urethras are located elsewhere.

This seems to be enough for most female-to-male transexuals.
 
It is in NY, but you probably already knew that.

Not really. Dayton, OH isn't exactly the most cosmopolitan place in the world. My knowledge of transgendered people is pretty much confined to Chris Crocker, The Rocky Horror Picture Show, and Rent.
 
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Not really. Dayton, OH isn't exactly the most cosmopolitan place in the world. My knowledge of transgendered people is pretty much confined to Chris Crocker, The Rocky Horror Picture Show, and Rent.

Well, like I said, my city had two of them running against each other for mayor in 2004.
It's pretty commonplace here.
 
I was actually looking for the "misunderstood" option on the poll, since this thread itself shows that transexuals are very much misunderstood. The issue is complex, as others have articulated already better than I could. Now I've not personally known any transexuals... at least I don't think I have, although I doubt a casual acquaintance or co-worker would announce his/her status upon introduction... but I personally have great empathy for someone who genuinely feels like a stranger in his/her own skin.

Now I've always been a woman. I like being a woman. I try to understand what a transexual might feel by imagining myself undressing in front of a mirror and suddenly seeing a package of male genitalia hanging where it most definitely should not be. No way would I just say, "oh, guess I'm a man now" and run out to buy dockers and condoms. I would be saying, "Good God, doctor, cut this horrible thing OFF."

So I can imagine how someone might feel if the above scenario was real rather than imagined.
 
Wrong. Simply because those who suffer the disorder are not "pretending." Your notion that they "pretend" to be someone they are not is basically mocking the disorder. Your lack of seriousness is duly noted.

Note it. Write it down. Take a picture. Link to it in your favorites. I don't give a flying rat's ass. When Ms. Gender Pretend Disorder looks down and sees bits and pieces she wishes were something else and starts acting on that contrary to the reality that Ms. Gender Pretend Disorder is actually a she, it's just that: PRETEND.

Hell, I wish I was 6'4" and black so I could be a good basketball player. For me to carry on as if that were true would be nothing more than pretend. Is there a African American NBA All-Star Pretend Disorder, too?

And you are the judge of that?

No, nature does.

You get to tell what people think they are?

No, nature does.

Do you get to decide who they should be based on their genitalia?

I never made the first assertion as to "who" they are, simply WHAT they are. And yes, genitalia decides that.

Does having a dick and ***** define who you are?

Having a penis certainly defines a big part of who I am. That's because I don't have Gender Pretend Disorder.

Your perception of yourself begins with your perception, not your body.

I already conceded that Ms. Gender Pretend Disorder has a perception problem. But this isn't about perception. It's about Ms. Gender Pretend Disorder trying to pretend to be the opposite gender from what she is.

If you're serious about discussing Gender Identity Disorder, could you at the very least refer to it with its proper name.

I will refer to it however I wish.
 
Hell, I wish I was 6'4" and black so I could be a good basketball player. For me to carry on as if that were true would be nothing more than pretend. Is there a African American NBA All-Star Pretend Disorder, too?

What if there was a medical procedure that could help you realize that dream? Would you do it? If no, why not?
 
What if there was a medical procedure that could help you realize that dream? Would you do it? If no, why not?

No, because I know I am not a 6'4" African American NBA All-star. I'm an average height white boy with the b-ball skillz of a blind, pigeon toed parapalegic.
 
Note it. Write it down. Take a picture. Link to it in your favorites. I don't give a flying rat's ass. When Ms. Gender Pretend Disorder looks down and sees bits and pieces she wishes were something else and starts acting on that contrary to the reality that Ms. Gender Pretend Disorder is actually a she, it's just that: PRETEND.

Hell, I wish I was 6'4" and black so I could be a good basketball player. For me to carry on as if that were true would be nothing more than pretend. Is there a African American NBA All-Star Pretend Disorder, too?



No, nature does.



No, nature does.



I never made the first assertion as to "who" they are, simply WHAT they are. And yes, genitalia decides that.



Having a penis certainly defines a big part of who I am. That's because I don't have Gender Pretend Disorder.



I already conceded that Ms. Gender Pretend Disorder has a perception problem. But this isn't about perception. It's about Ms. Gender Pretend Disorder trying to pretend to be the opposite gender from what she is.



I will refer to it however I wish.

It's such a pity Jallman...

At last, I thought, you and I were going to finally discuss something where you don't talk thru your ass. Your post come off as insensitive, pompous, and childish.

It seems every time I encounter you, you just want to revert back to this childishness. Again, I am robbed of a meaningful conversation with you. If you wish to discuss this like adults, cease the childishness.
 
jallman, here are your comments from an earlier post:

This is how I view it. Even given that the transexual's mental disturbance isn't the fact that they have the wrong sex organs in that they are correct in feeling their body doesn't match their identity, this still has to cause other complications. I can't believe that not being in the right body doesn't cause some other pathologies to form because the mental stress and anguish has to be insurmountable. Captain even referred to "stress" being alleviated by addressing the issue.

So, in effect, though the transexualism might not be the mental defect, I still believe that it is almost guaranteed that there will be some mental defect as a result of the transexualism.

You seem to be contradicting yourself. " I can't believe that not being in the right body doesn't cause some other pathologies to form because the mental stress and anguish has to be insurmountable." This is a good description of GID. Here are the criteria used to diagnose GID:

1) There must be evidence of a strong and persistent cross-gender identification.
2) This cross-gender identification must not merely be a desire for any perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex.
3) There must also be evidence of persistent discomfort about one's assigned sex or a sense of inappropriateness in the gender role of that sex.
4) The individual must not have a concurrent physical intersex condition (e.g., androgen insensitivity syndrome or congenital adrenal hyperplasia).
5) There must be evidence of clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

Note numbers 3 and 5. You indicate stress and anguish about being in the wrong body. This is consistent with the diagnosis.

This is no "pretend" disorder. The distress is quite real and has a specific cause. Now, as I said before, teasing out someone with GID from someone who has other psychological problems that are manifesting themselves with psychosexual symptoms is important in making the diagnosis.
 
What if someone is a man/woman born in a hermaphrodite's body?

Is there any documentation of that happening?

I'm a firm believer that if I can think of something, it's probably happened.
 
jallman, here are your comments from an earlier post:



You seem to be contradicting yourself. " I can't believe that not being in the right body doesn't cause some other pathologies to form because the mental stress and anguish has to be insurmountable." This is a good description of GID. Here are the criteria used to diagnose GID:



Note numbers 3 and 5. You indicate stress and anguish about being in the wrong body. This is consistent with the diagnosis.

This is no "pretend" disorder. The distress is quite real and has a specific cause. Now, as I said before, teasing out someone with GID from someone who has other psychological problems that are manifesting themselves with psychosexual symptoms is important in making the diagnosis.
I don't believe Jallman thinks the disorder itself is "pretend."

He asserted a "surgical solution" which involves manipulation/mutilation of ones genitals offers up a "pretend" delusion. The man who genuinely thinks he is in the wrong body cannot become a woman no matter how many surgical alterations he undergoes, no matter how many drugs he takes. No matter what he does he will still be a man, albeit an altered man. But a man nonetheless, not a woman. That's where the fantasy/pretend/delusion part comes into play. With surgery and hormones the aim is to get as close to the goal as possible so you can pretend you are in the "right" body. So you can pretend you are the right gender.

But you're not. You can't be. A man can't become a woman and vice versa. I'm sure the disorder is real. I'm sure there are folks who really feel like they are in the wrong body. But there's no surgical solution to that which doesn't involve fantasy and pretending, as Jallman said.
 
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I don't believe Jallman thinks the disorder itself is "pretend."

He asserted a "surgical solution" which involves manipulation/mutilation of ones genitals offers up a "pretend" delusion. The man who genuinely thinks he is in the wrong body cannot become a woman no matter how many surgical alterations he undergoes, no matter how many drugs he takes. No matter what he does he will still be a man, albeit an altered man. But a man nonetheless, not a woman. That's where the fantasy/pretend/delusion part comes into play. With surgery and hormones the aim is to get as close to the goal as possible so you can pretend you are in the "right" body. So you can pretend you are the right gender.

But you're not. You can't be. A man can't become a woman and vice versa. I'm sure the disorder is real. I'm sure there are folks who really feel like they are in the wrong body. But there's no surgical solution to that which doesn't involve fantasy and pretending, as Jallman said.

Does an amputee pretend that he has a new arm when given a prosthetic? Does a man who had heart replacement surgery pretend that he has a new heart? Does an old woman who is hooked up to a respirator machine pretend that the machine is her new lungs?

These are solutions. Not "pretend" or "fantasy" things.
 
As an addendum to my last post:

Again, Jallman could have chosen much better words in his post. "Obsession" "mutilate" and "pretend" were not accurate. These are clearly offensive, and uncalled for.
 
As an addendum to my last post:

Again, Jallman could have chosen much better words in his post. "Obsession" "mutilate" and "pretend" were not accurate. These are clearly offensive, and uncalled for.
Particularly from someone whose lifestyle choice would be characterized with similar terms not so long ago. A man who recently married his boyfriend and yet votes and promotes the party that would take that away from him, that thinks he is a disgrace to family values.
 
Does an amputee pretend that he has a new arm when given a prosthetic? Does a man who had heart replacement surgery pretend that he has a new heart? Does an old woman who is hooked up to a respirator machine pretend that the machine is her new lungs?

These are solutions. Not "pretend" or "fantasy" things.

It becomes fantasy and complete b.s. when the media runs stories like, "First pregnant man! Man gives birth to baby, etc" When no such thing happened.

There's a difference between being PC and pretending not to notice the cross dresser is really a man disguised as a woman or pretending not to notice a prosthetic vs. proclaiming some absolute hogwash like "pregnant man" and "man gives birth."

Plus your comparisons are invalid. When one aims to correct a physical deformity/injury/non-working part with something that works there's no reason to question the sanity of said person.

When one takes healthy human parts and opts to have them mutilated, chopped off, altered etc when there was never anything wrong with those parts to begin with that's when you can reasonably start questioning sanity.

This doesn't just apply to gender confused folks either. I equally question women who allow a knife to be taken to their breasts to insert man made parts to create an illusion of bigger breasts. People who cover themselves from head to toe in tats. People who create those really hideous huge holes in their earlobes, etc.

Obviously there are social and cultural norms and they change over time so I know much of the bias is relative to me. I don't mind regular earrings, a few tasteful tats, etc.

But there does come a point where the surgical manipulation starts to seem crazy, self destructive, and irrational. Breast implants and dick removal would certainly fall under those headings in my mind. The absolute destruction of healthy tissue in favor of creating a delusion seems irrational. Of course their sanity will be questioned.

When self improvement comes complete with hints and evidence of self hate there's clearly underlying problems and it becomes obvious no knife, no amount of cutting, is going to resolve them.
 
Plus your comparisons are invalid. When one aims to correct a physical deformity/injury/non-working part with something that works there's no reason to question the sanity of said person.

The comparisons that I made was to illustrate that just because they're not part of your body, doesn't make it any less of a solution. Pretend or not, the prosthetic (whether it be an arm or a penis), still is a solution to the problem.

When one takes healthy human parts and opts to have them mutilated, chopped off, altered etc when there was never anything wrong with those parts to begin with that's when you can reasonably start questioning sanity.

But there was something wrong with it. GID.

When self improvement comes complete with hints and evidence of self hate there's clearly underlying problems and it becomes obvious no knife, no amount of cutting, is going to resolve them.

Did you include "self-improvement" for mental health? It remains a fact that many transsexuals, who underwent the corrective surgery, feels much happier with themselves. Is this not "self-improvement?" Does this not alleviate the "self-hate?"

Quite obviously one way to resolve this problem is with the knife.
 
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I think there are many types of dysphoria. I tend towards believing they are all mental issues to varying degrees. There are many things a person can despise about themselves, get hung up on, etc. I'd prefer we came up with ways to heal the mind vs allowing a person to self mutilate. Self destruction can never really be a "healing" cure in my mind.

The anorexic woman must find a way to heal her mind. To be comfortable within her own skin. Her belief that she's too fat is just as real as some guys desperate belief that he was meant to be a woman. Someone addicted to plastic surgery like Michael Jackson most definitely has some real self hatred issues going on. His dysphoria is real. But it's a mental issue. There was nothing wrong with his body his look till he start screwing with it with a knife.

You can't just allow the starving gal to get rail thin so she can become closer to the fantasy of being a stick figure. You can't do that 'cause she'll die. So you have to heal the mind, to heal her.

If I were a dr. I'd deal with gender disorders the same way. If a patient is a man, I can't make him a woman. That's the reality. The truth the patient eventually must deal with, mentally. The best I can do is help him find a way to be comfortable with his own body, preferably without taking a knife to it, without harming it. Just because he can chop off his penis and live, doesn't mean he should.

It's a cheap cure if you ask me. A delusion. It doesn't address the real problem. It doesn't heal the dysphoria. If you could heal the dsyphoria then you've accomplished something.
 
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I think there are many types of dysphoria. I tend towards believing they are all mental issues to varying degrees. There are many things a person can despise about themselves, get hung up on, etc. I'd prefer we came up with ways to heal the mind vs allowing a person to self mutilate. Self destruction can never really be a "healing" cure in my mind.

The anorexic woman must find a way to heal her mind. To be comfortable within her own skin. Her belief that she's too fat is just as real as some guys desperate belief that he was meant to be a woman. Someone addicted to plastic surgery like Michael Jackson most definitely has some real self hatred issues going on. His dysphoria is real. But it's a mental issue. There was nothing wrong with his body his look till he start screwing with it with a knife.

You can't just allow the starving gal to get rail thin so she can become closer to the fantasy of being a stick figure. You can't do that 'cause she'll die. So you have to heal the mind, to heal her.

If I were a dr. I'd deal with gender disorders the same way. If a patient is a man, I can't make him a woman. That's the reality. The truth the patient eventually must deal with, mentally. The best I can do is help him find a way to be comfortable with his own body, preferably without taking a knife to it, without harming it. Just because he can chop off his penis and live, doesn't mean he should.

It's a cheap cure if you ask me. A delusion. It doesn't address the real problem. It doesn't heal the dysphoria. If you could heal the dsyphoria then you've accomplished something.

This goes back to the post where I said that it is important where the direction of the disorder is coming from.

You are assuming that the problem is that the man/woman is confused. Is it not possible that person is really a woman with the wrong parts? Or a man?

You see, you are suggesting that your body is defining who you are. It does not begin there, nor does the delusion. It all begins in the mind. Now, if you are suggesting we start healing from there, how are we supposed to do it? Are we going to convince the man that he is in fact a man because of his penis? If it really was a woman with the wrong parts, then that solution will never work.

What is healthy? Healthy for whom? Perhaps we should define these before we move on.
 
This goes back to the post where I said that it is important where the direction of the disorder is coming from.

You are assuming that the problem is that the man/woman is confused. Is it not possible that person is really a woman with the wrong parts? Or a man?

You see, you are suggesting that your body is defining who you are. It does not begin there, nor does the delusion. It all begins in the mind. Now, if you are suggesting we start healing from there, how are we supposed to do it? Are we going to convince the man that he is in fact a man because of his penis? If it really was a woman with the wrong parts, then that solution will never work.

What is healthy? Healthy for whom? Perhaps we should define these before we move on.

First, I'm not assuming the person is confused. Confused wouldn't be my word choice. As with any dysphoria I believe they're ultimately unhappy. They are mentally not content with their body. When the body is pathologically healthy the malcontent, the way I see it, has to be a product of the mind.

A dr. -no matter how good or expensive- cannot turn a man into a woman. This is the reality. To charge them, exploit them, and surgically alter them is a shoddy attempt at healing the dysphoria. When all is said and done they will still be a man, a surgically altered man, but still a man. All this at the expense of a healthy body. The once healthy body, unhealthy mind now becomes an unhealthy mind and unhealthy body.

If you want to argue that it's healthy for a man to remove his healthy penis I'll just agree to disagree. The removal of a penis is not a benign alteration. It's drastic. It's also pointless in that at first the dr. is dealing with a man who wants to be a woman. Post surgery the dr. is dealing with a penis-less man who wants to be a woman. No healing of any kind occurred and the procedure is irreversible! At this point the dr. should be ashamed of themselves, my opinion of course.

Meanwhile gender roles change constantly. There's no reason a healthy man can't adopt the appearance of a "woman" without self destruction. There's no reason for the knife and the destruction of healthy tissue unless the patient is lead to believe that the illusion will be so real, so good, that others will be fooled. That for all intent and purposes he as a man has become a woman.

However society has shown time and time again that they don't buy into such illusions. No amount of surgery makes a man a woman and ultimately the illusion fails its intended purpose.

I think it's far better to encourage the person to take care of their healthy body, be glad that their body is healthy, and go ahead and encourage them to defy gender roles every which way till Sunday without bringing physical harm to the healthy body they do have. Every effort should be made to help them be comfortable within their own skin.

Let's say you're right. Let's say it's possible an individual genuinely is "trapped" in the wrong body, the wrong gender. I'll go ahead and accept that premise.

It doesn't change the argument that they shouldn't do bodily harm to themselves. It doesn't change the FACT that a dr. can't make a man a woman.

People self harm for a wide variety of reasons. No matter what the underlying cause we normally steer away from allowing them to continue to do that. Gender disorders shouldn't be treated any differently. If you could make a man a woman then that would be different. That would be a "cure." But you can't. So you're just allowing them to self mutilate. We wouldn't allow a "cutter" to keep cutting as long as they did it in a way that never resulted in death. We certainly wouldn't do it and call it a cure. We wouldn't allow drs. to set up shop where they make appts to routinely safely cut cutters in a sterile clean environment and call that a cure for whatever dysphoria they had. The very idea is insane.

So is cutting off the penis.

An unhealthy mind needs to be surrounded by healthy minds that aim to heal. It's a disservice to offer them up insane "cures" that are self destructive, illusionary, and without purpose.
 
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