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Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

I personally feel transgender individuals are...

  • Total voters
    58
Ethereal said:
You act as if the psychological community's word is law. Their theories on the matter of transexuals is merely a load of sophistry and a violation of parsimony. Some things don't require overly complex explainations for it to make sense and this is one of them. They are simply quite disturbed and there is no reason to believe otherwise.

I also find it quite ironic that people will use the psychological community's previous perspective on homosexuality as an example of traditionalist misclassifications but will turn right around and champion their current opinion on transexuals. So basically, the psychological community has been known to make mistakes but when they agree with me then they must be right.

Moreover, I consider psychology on the whole a loose field of study. It's a transient discipline that merely reflects the perceptions of contemporary society. I do not feel psychology is a truly valid classification system.
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As research becomes more sophisticated and techniques more advanced, we add information that was not previously known. Consider what we know today because of technology and research as opposed to what we knew 100 years ago. Your position is a reactionary position that refuses to take current information and research into account. You are correct. Sometimes the simple solution is the correct one. This is not, however, one of those times. There is nothing that your position offers in the way of research or information that disputes the alternative.

And we certainly differ on the validity on the study of human behavior.
 
Lightdemon said:
Again, the direction in which you place the disorder is very important. Depending on which direction it is placed, that determines how the disorder should be resolved.

A man who wants to be a woman, who feels like a woman, who thinks he's a woman. How do you resolve this problem? Do you convince the man that he's a man, or do you allow him to be who he wants to be? Which resolution will be most positive? The one in which will make the man happier, or the one which will make the man hate himself even more?

The disorder is not that the man is confused that he isn't a man. The disorder is that the person is a woman trapped in a man's body. Again, the direction in which you place the disorder is very important.
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This is on target, and similar to how I described the situation. Look at the questions that I suggested be asked. These are key in determining whether the person is a transsexual, or whether there is some sort of mental illness occurring.
 
This is how I view it. Even given that the transexual's mental disturbance isn't the fact that they have the wrong sex organs in that they are correct in feeling their body doesn't match their identity, this still has to cause other complications. I can't believe that not being in the right body doesn't cause some other pathologies to form because the mental stress and anguish has to be insurmountable. Captain even referred to "stress" being alleviated by addressing the issue.

So, in effect, though the transexualism might not be the mental defect, I still believe that it is almost guaranteed that there will be some mental defect as a result of the transexualism.
 
jamesrage said:
So if Bill thinks he is also Jim,James, and Bob then we should give Bob birth certificates and I.D.s for Jim,James and Bob as a quick fix to make him feel better instead of actually having some real therapy(which might take longer) that could cure him of his mental disorder?
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I don't think your comparing apples to apples. If you want to start a multiple personality disorder thread I'll be happy to participate. :2wave:
 
jallman said:
This is how I view it. Even given that the transexual's mental disturbance isn't the fact that they have the wrong sex organs in that they are correct in feeling their body doesn't match their identity, this still has to cause other complications. I can't believe that not being in the right body doesn't cause some other pathologies to form because the mental stress and anguish has to be insurmountable. Captain even referred to "stress" being alleviated by addressing the issue.

So, in effect, though the transexualism might not be the mental defect, I still believe that it is almost guaranteed that there will be some mental defect as a result of the transexualism.
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I've addressed that issue here:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057773585-post10.html

Nobody's denying that being in a body of the wrong sex causes stress and mental anguish, and that the stress leads to maladjustment, poor social functioning, and random acting-out in many aspects of life beyond just the sexual.
Do you remember the Teena Brandon case (there was a book and a movie based on it)?
Teena was hardly a model citizen, even aside from her gender confusion- she was involved in petty theft, hot check cashing, she was basically a transient and a couch-surfer.
That's probably not at all atypical for transexual youths.
But all of that might've been alleviated by the sex reassignment surgery that she was hoping to get, having already lived as a male for a number of years before her death.
 
1069 said:
I've addressed that issue here:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057773585-post10.html

Nobody's denying that being in a body of the wrong sex causes stress and mental anguish, and that the stress leads to maladjustment, poor social functioning, and random acting-out in many aspects of life beyond just the sexual.
Do you remember the Teena Brandon case (there was a book and a movie based on it)?
Teena was hardly a model citizen, even aside from her gender confusion- she was involved in petty theft, hot check cashing, she was basically a transient and a couch-surfer.
That's probably not at all atypical for transexual youths.
But all of that might've been alleviated by the sex reassignment surgery that she was hoping to get, having already lived as a male for a number of years before her death.
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That's all well and good, but it does nothing to address the fact that this maladjustment is present and may very well be ingrained in such a way that without serious counseling the transexual can reasonably be barred from holding certain jobs or responsibilities, one of those being working with children.

In fact, I'd venture that its almost guaranteed that counseling is needed to rectify the situation and bring the transexual back to a functional point in his/her mental stability.
 
jallman said:
This is how I view it. Even given that the transexual's mental disturbance isn't the fact that they have the wrong sex organs in that they are correct in feeling their body doesn't match their identity, this still has to cause other complications. I can't believe that not being in the right body doesn't cause some other pathologies to form because the mental stress and anguish has to be insurmountable. Captain even referred to "stress" being alleviated by addressing the issue.

So, in effect, though the transexualism might not be the mental defect, I still believe that it is almost guaranteed that there will be some mental defect as a result of the transexualism.
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I would say this is a pretty good assessment. Certain pathologies can certainly be caused by the gender displacement issue. Traumas can create psychological illnesses that may not have a direct relationship to the trauma. If someone is raped or sexually abused, depression could result. Acting out behaviors, such as oppositional behavior, sociopathy, substance absue could, also occur. As could panic disorder. One reason that a full psychological evaluation is important when sex reassignment is considered, is to tease out what has been caused by the transsexualism and what predates it or, is incongruent with it. I have debated the homosexuality issue, in this vein, many times here. It is similar. If someone is abused, and "turns" gay, one must evaluate to determine whether their sexuality is a symptom of a psychological disorder, or if their true sexuality had just been repressed. This is how to approach transsexualism in order to make an accurate determination. Looking at the distress and the alleviation of such gives us important information in coming to conclusions.
 
jallman said:
This is how I view it. Even given that the transexual's mental disturbance isn't the fact that they have the wrong sex organs in that they are correct in feeling their body doesn't match their identity, this still has to cause other complications. I can't believe that not being in the right body doesn't cause some other pathologies to form because the mental stress and anguish has to be insurmountable. Captain even referred to "stress" being alleviated by addressing the issue.

So, in effect, though the transexualism might not be the mental defect, I still believe that it is almost guaranteed that there will be some mental defect as a result of the transexualism.
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While I agree with the entirety of your post, I'm going to add that no human being alive is without defect. Mental or physical.

The degree of stress, and therefore the degree of "mental defect" (as you put it), is what we should be concerned with. If the stress isn't debilitating, then I don't think it matters. Just the same that most people's stress aren't debilitating, which also shouldn't matter. Different people handle stress in different ways. Different transsexuals handle their problem in different ways as well, it's not always surgery.

So if the stress is addressed and minimized, I don't think there is a significant problem.
 
jallman said:
That's all well and good, but it does nothing to address the fact that this maladjustment is present and may very well be ingrained in such a way that without serious counseling the transexual can reasonably be barred from holding certain jobs or responsibilities, one of those being working with children.

In fact, I'd venture that its almost guaranteed that counseling is needed to rectify the situation and bring the transexual back to a functional point in his/her mental stability.
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I agree, and submit that because of the pressures of dealing with this situation, counseling will be needed after sex reassignment is completed, even if the psychological issues that pertained to the gender displacement are relieved from the reassignment. A whole new set of problems can develop, unrelated to gender, but more related to adjustment.
 
jallman said:
That's all well and good, but it does nothing to address the fact that this maladjustment is present and may very well be ingrained in such a way that without serious counseling the transexual can reasonably be barred from holding certain jobs or responsibilities, one of those being working with children.
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I'm wondering about this "not safe to work around children" thing. Where does this come from? What is it feared that will happen?
 
Kayleigh Katz said:
I'm wondering about this "not safe to work around children" thing. Where does this come from? What is it feared that will happen?
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Please note I didn't say "not safe", I said "can be reasonably barred from". Just like they could be reasonably barred from serving in the military or on a police force.

I wouldn't want someone who was guilty of hot check schemes, petty theft, or even a pathological liar (which I could easily see a transexual becoming if they become accustomed to living with so great a lie just to assimilate) working with children, in addition to other sensitive jobs.
 
jallman said:
Please note I didn't say "not safe", I said "can be reasonably barred from". Just like they could be reasonably barred from serving in the military or on a police force.

I wouldn't want someone who was guilty of hot check schemes, petty theft, or even a pathological liar (which I could easily see a transexual becoming if they become accustomed to living with so great a lie just to assimilate) working with children, in addition to other sensitive jobs.
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I think you could have chosen better words to describe the lifestyle of a transsexual...."become accustomed to living with so great a lie"?....

I doubt that most transsexuals wanted to live a lie. I seriously doubt the veracity of tying their lifestyle choices to thievery and crime.

You're taking a very large leap of faith here...
 
Lightdemon said:
I think you could have chosen better words to describe the lifestyle of a transsexual...."become accustomed to living with so great a lie"?....

I doubt that most transsexuals wanted to live a lie. I seriously doubt the veracity of tying their lifestyle choices to thievery and crime.

You're taking a very large leap of faith here...
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If the transexual has adjusted to cope with the problem of living in the wrong body, I can't see how you can refute that deception isn't ingrained in them on some level. Now whether that be self deception or more outwardly focused deception is a whole other matter.
 
jallman said:
Please note I didn't say "not safe", I said "can be reasonably barred from".
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Sweetie, it's me, KK, we're friends having a chat, I was just paraphrasing.

jallman said:
Just like they could be reasonably barred from serving in the military or on a police force.
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I'm going to need this explained to. Why would this be a problem if they could meet the physical requirements?


jallman said:
I wouldn't want someone who was guilty of hot check schemes, petty theft, or even a pathological liar (which I could easily see a transexual becoming if they become accustomed to living with so great a lie just to assimilate) working with children, in addition to other sensitive jobs.
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Do you really equate this with criminality?

In RL I'm breathtakingly nice and polite to all sorts of people that I think are inadequate in one way or another that I'd love to tell how I really feel. Does that mean I'm a pathological liar or that I've had good upbringing? It certainly doesn't mean I have a criminal mindset.
 
Kayleigh Katz said:
Sweetie, it's me, KK, we're friends having a chat, I was just paraphrasing.


I'm going to need this explained to. Why would this be a problem if they could meet the physical requirements?



Do you really equate this with criminality?

In RL I'm breathtakingly nice and polite to all sorts of people that I think are inadequate in one way or another that I'd love to tell how I really feel. Does that mean I'm a pathological liar or that I've had good upbringing? It certainly doesn't mean I have a criminal mindset.
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No, I don't equate it with criminality, but if you look to 10's post above where she gives an example of a person who had transexualism, these are the ways that particular subject acted out due to the trauma of her condition.

In truth, I see alcoholism, drug addiction, anger issues, and fiscal irresponsibility being the major ways that a transexual might cope. I don't particularly want a person with these problems on the police force, in the military, or teaching kids.
 
jallman said:
If the transexual has adjusted to cope with the problem of living in the wrong body, I can't see how you can refute that deception isn't ingrained in them on some level. Now whether that be self deception or more outwardly focused deception is a whole other matter.
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Is confusion the same as deception?

Transsexuals don't all start out thinking their the opposite sex. The same could be said of homosexuals who have been married so-and-so years and realized that they were gay. Could you really say that this person was deceptive? Isn't it possible that this person was confused?

Again, I don't think this is intentional deception, it may not even be deception at all, and therefore it is quite different than a pathological liar.
 
jallman said:
No, I don't equate it with criminality, but if you look to 10's post above where she gives an example of a person who had transexualism, these are the ways that particular subject acted out due to the trauma of her condition.

In truth, I see alcoholism, drug addiction, anger issues, and fiscal irresponsibility being the major ways that a transexual might cope. I don't particularly want a person with these problems on the police force, in the military, or teaching kids.
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If you wish those things weren't present in those jobs you must just be in fits over the current state of things.

I'm curious to know why you'd think that these issues would be prevalent in people with gender issues.
 
Kayleigh Katz said:
I'm curious to know why you'd think that these issues would be prevalent in people with gender issues.
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Gender Identity Issues and Alcohol Dependency

Some representative statistics

In the core group that we have met we have found that:
53% were prostitutes
16% were HIV+ self-disclose
100% were unemployed and on Social Assistance
80% lived in hot stove hotel rooms where the cleanliness is very poor
14% were known to be HIV+ but did not acknowledge it in any form nor did they want to access our support group
95 % were high school drop-outs
none had contacts with family members.
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Again, I just think the extreme trauma of their conditions brings about a whole plethora or other mental defects and negative social issues.
 
In the core group that we have met we have found that:
53% were prostitutes
16% were HIV+ self-disclose
100% were unemployed and on Social Assistance
80% lived in hot stove hotel rooms where the cleanliness is very poor
14% were known to be HIV+ but did not acknowledge it in any form nor did they want to access our support group
95 % were high school drop-outs
none had contacts with family members.
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Um... I'm gonna have to call bull**** on those stats.
Who among us has not had a transexual neighbor, classmate, or coworker?
 
jallman said:
Gender Identity Issues and Alcohol Dependency

Some representative statistics

Again, I just think the extreme trauma of their conditions brings about a whole plethora or other mental defects and negative social issues.
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But at that link with the stats they say that they got their info from 133 transvestites/transexuals they met "on the streets and in bars"! Of course you find prostitutes on the street! Of course you find drunks in bars! Etc, etc.

That doesn't mean that most or even many people with gender issues are liek that.
 
jallman said:
If the transexual has adjusted to cope with the problem of living in the wrong body, I can't see how you can refute that deception isn't ingrained in them on some level. Now whether that be self deception or more outwardly focused deception is a whole other matter.
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Funny, I have come to the same conclusion about gay people who were ever in the closet. On some level, a practiced deceptive skill has been developed. That conclusion is, in my view, unavoidable. This doesn't mean that the skill has resulted in a person without integrity and basic honesty. And everyone unfortunate enough to ever have to deceive people about themselves on such a fundamental level deserves a shot at proving their ability to productively contribute just like everyone else does, in whatever way their heart draws them.

It's called compassion. It's actually what makes being human worthwhile, if anything does.
 
Dezaad said:
Funny, I have come to the same conclusion about gay people who were ever in the closet. On some level, a practiced deceptive skill has been developed. That conclusion is, in my view, unavoidable. This doesn't mean that the skill has resulted in a person without integrity and basic honesty. And everyone unfortunate enough to ever have to deceive people about themselves on such a fundamental level deserves a shot at proving their ability to productively contribute just like everyone else does, in whatever way their heart draws them.

It's called compassion. It's actually what makes being human worthwhile, if anything does.
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Many of us have things in our past that we cannot be completely open and honest about, at the risk of being persecuted or deprived of the means to support ourselves and our families.
Myself, I don't consider nondisclosure- so-called "lies of omission"- to be on par with active untruthfulness.
I don't think people have any moral or ethical obligation to disclose personal information to strangers or to employers or to anyone else.
People must protect themselves and their loved ones from hostility, discrimination, and disenfranchisement.
That is their primary obligation. All other considerations are secondary.
If that means pretending to be more like the majority than one actually is, or hiding one's aberrations, then that's what one should do.

I don't see a problem with it.
The few of us who can afford to be open and candid about every single aspect of our existences have either been very sheltered or have led very boring lives.
 
jallman said:
Gender Identity Issues and Alcohol Dependency

Some representative statistics



Again, I just think the extreme trauma of their conditions brings about a whole plethora or other mental defects and negative social issues.
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Though I would agree that transsexuals could have more psychological difficulties because of this issue, your research is skewed. Its sample size is a very narrow population group that may not be representative of transsexuals as a whole.

Beyond this, though transsexuals may have more psychological ills because of their situation, that does not negate them from doing some of the jobs you are suggesting. Just because they have these problems, doesn't mean that they are not able to control them through therapy or other appropriate means. There is a difference between a substance abuser in recovery and an active substance abuser. Plenty of people cope with this and other issues, appropriately, every day, and should not be restricted from where they work, just because they had these issues. A transsexual should not be eliminated from these jobs just because of their situation. This condemns them before they are found guilty. If, of course they are found to act out illegally or in ways that could harm their job choice, consequences should be levied...as they would if anyone had these issues.
 
jallman said:
No, I don't equate it with criminality, but if you look to 10's post above where she gives an example of a person who had transexualism, these are the ways that particular subject acted out due to the trauma of her condition.

In truth, I see alcoholism, drug addiction, anger issues, and fiscal irresponsibility being the major ways that a transexual might cope. I don't particularly want a person with these problems on the police force, in the military, or teaching kids.
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You just described pretty much EVERYONE in America except for maybe like 7 Mormons.
 
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