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Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

I personally feel transgender individuals are...

  • Total voters
    58
Lightdemon said:
Then explain why some gays like to dress in drag.

But before you answer, I do understand what you are saying. Actually, it's a very good way of putting it. But there are a lot of different types of queers out there. And there are those who identify as female, the "queens" if you will.
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Absolutely, but they aren't mutilating their bodies to pathologically try to bring about a reality that never will be.

Hell, I can be in touch with my inner sista like any gay man, but the fact is, I know I have a penis (and I really love my penis as well as other penises). And the "queens" you are referencing I see as having more of a flamboyance about their mannerisms than any real pathology that makes them think they are something they aren't.
 
1069 said:
So, in other words, it's society that's deranged, not these individuals who undergo surgery?

Do you think most people believe Zeta-Jones to be unattractive, or Electra to be sexually unappealing?
Do you think most people's opinion of these women's appeal is despite their so-called "mutilations", or because of them?
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It is society that is deranged and becoming more so everyday all in the name of tolerance.

It's positively insane to have a surgeon knife open your chest and insert silicone or saline balloons in the hopes of being more appealing, sexually.

There was a time when most of us would have readily acknowledged that. Now many of us are nuttier than the whole grain bread in my freezer.
 
talloulou said:
Nothing as long as you aren't insisting everyone and their mother play along.
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How are you being asked to play along? Your not being approached for sex by men that used to be women, right?
 
Lightdemon said:
Okay, fine. Then you're wrong. It isn't "pretend." I've already shown you why it isn't "pretend." You're co-worker isn't pretending.

You're just impossible Jallman. Simply unbelievable.



What if I told you that you're just pretending to like men? You're a man, you should like women. Are you going to let me tell you what you think. Do you have a say in who you are?
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A man who sexually prefers other men is not lying. You don't have to put aside reality and facts to believe him when he claims he prefers men.

A man who tells you he's a woman is asking you to accept a lie, an illusion.

They're not even close to comparable.
 
talloulou said:
It is society that is deranged and becoming more so everyday all in the name of tolerance.

It's positively insane to have a surgeon knife open your chest and insert silicone or saline balloons in the hopes of being more appealing, sexually.

There was a time when most of us would have readily acknowledged that. Now many of us are nuttier than the whole grain bread in my freezer.
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What? You're saying that tolerance is deranged, and intolerance is sanity? Wow. Not in my world it's not. It sounds to me as if you honestly feel that anyone who doesn't share your beliefs, your revulsion for those with whom you disagree, is basically... insane for not agreeing with you. Have I misunderstood?
 
Kayleigh Katz said:
How are you being asked to play along? Your not being approached for sex by men that used to be women, right?
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I'm asked to play along when the media reports the first man has given birth. I'm asked to play along when laws are made telling us men can use womens bathrooms, gym showers, etc because they believe they're women and so we ALL have to believe they're women. I'm asked to play along when a teacher leaves school in June as a woman and returns in the fall as a man and doesn't have enough sensitivity to the young children involved to bother switching schools and of course NOBODY better force them to switch schools because that would be intolerant. Nor can any parent remove their child from that class without withdrawing entirely from the school.

There's lots of ways we're all asked to play along and occasionally it's time for a reality check.

FWIW I would prefer my kid be taught by a man who claims he prefers women clothes vs. being taught by a man who claims he's a woman.

One is sane albeit off the beaten path while the other is a ridiculous fabrication that definitely borders on insane.
 
jallman said:
Absolutely, but they aren't mutilating their bodies to pathologically try to bring about a reality that never will be.

Hell, I can be in touch with my inner sista like any gay man, but the fact is, I know I have a penis (and I really love my penis as well as other penises). And the "queens" you are referencing I see as having more of a flamboyance about their mannerisms than any real pathology that makes them think they are something they aren't.
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That part was especially funny.

The part where we disagree on, the pretending, is essential. It is the part where the individual decides who he/she is. That decision should be made by the individual and no one else.

I'm not going to bring up all the arguments again, there were plenty on hermaphrodites, XX males, XY females, etc.

You seem to think that nature defines who we are, but I don't know what the hell nature is exactly.

But I guess I'll just end here.
 
DiAnna said:
What? You're saying that tolerance is deranged, and intolerance is sanity? Wow. Not in my world it's not. It sounds to me as if you honestly feel that anyone who doesn't share your beliefs, your revulsion for those with whom you disagree, is basically... insane for not agreeing with you. Have I misunderstood?
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I'm saying tolerance crosses the line, goes to far, when in the name of tolerance we're forced to swallow lies and play PC games to the point that reality is bent.

I'll happily tolerate a woman who says she enjoys dressing like a lumberjack. I'll only tolerate her insisting to me she's a man and her clitoris is a penis for so long before I call bull****.
 
talloulou said:
A man who sexually prefers other men is not lying. You don't have to put aside reality and facts to believe him when he claims he prefers men.

A man who tells you he's a woman is asking you to accept a lie, an illusion.

They're not even close to comparable.
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They're the same and they're not the same.

Read about what one of these poor souls has gone thru and then imagine your son or daughter or spouse coming to you and telling you they have always felt trapped in a body of the wrong sex.

This is easy to make fun of, easy to attack. It's not so easy to empathize over. :(
 
talloulou said:
I'm asked to play along when the media reports the first man has given birth...
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Oh, I see. Its like when the media tells me Britney Spears is important and I have to go along with it.

FWIW, I don't see where anyone has to "go along with it" but the more I think about it I'm intrigued by the idea of having sex with a man that used to be a woman. ;)
 
talloulou said:
I'm asked to play along when the media reports the first man has given birth. I'm asked to play along when laws are made telling us men can use womens bathrooms, gym showers, etc because they believe they're women and so we ALL have to believe they're women. I'm asked to play along when a teacher leaves school in June as a woman and returns in the fall as a man and doesn't have enough sensitivity to the young children involved to bother switching schools and of course NOBODY better force them to switch schools because that would be intolerant. Nor can any parent remove their child from that class without withdrawing entirely from the school.

There's lots of ways we're all asked to play along and occasionally it's time for a reality check.

FWIW I would prefer my kid be taught by a man who claims he prefers women clothes vs. being taught by a man who claims he's a woman.

One is sane albeit off the beaten path while the other is a ridiculous fabrication that definitely borders on insane.
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So what if he thinks he's a woman? Many transsexuals who have gone through therapy aren't unstable. They aren't "insane." Again, it doesn't make sense to use words such as "mentally unstable" or "mental defect" to describe the situation.

There is a pathology, yes. But is it dangerous? No. Harmful? No.
So what makes them unfit to be a teacher, or any other career?
 
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Kayleigh Katz said:
Oh, I see. Its like when the media tells me Britney Spears is important and I have to go along with it.

FWIW, I don't see where anyone has to "go along with it" but the more I think about it I'm intrigued by the idea of having sex with a man that used to be a woman. ;)
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Someone here is Freaky Deaky!
 
ADK_Forever said:
They're the same and they're not the same.

Read about what one of these poor souls has gone thru and then imagine your son or daughter or spouse coming to you and telling you they have always felt trapped in a body of the wrong sex.

This is easy to make fun of, easy to attack. It's not so easy to empathize over. :(
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I can have compassion for a person who believes they're trapped in the wrong body. What I can't do is pretend along with them that the big sums of money they paid to a dr to chop of their balls changes reality.

I don't buy into the notion that a knife can heal all forms of dysphoria. If there is a wrong that can actually be corrected with a knife then I can jump on board.

But if the problem is that you're a man then the knife isn't gonna change that. You'll be a man preop. You'll be a man post op. If YOU believe the surgery successfully changed your gender that's your delusion. Don't try selling it to me.
 
jallman said:
I think that the social perception is irrelevant. I think if a woman feels unattractive or has a poor self image, bigger fake titties or a sculpted nose isn't going to alleviate the poor self esteem that instigated the surgery to start with.
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Logical fallacy, in that it hinges on the presupposition that Carmen Electra and Catherine Zeta-Jones (as well as most other models and celebrities) "felt unattractive" and/ or had "a poor self-image" to start with.
You have no way of knowing any such thing, and I for one doubt that it's the case. Both women (and numerous other actresses) began to attain celebrity status before their surgeries, and were probably advised (correctly) by their agents that such *improvements* would advance their careers.
When one makes one's living primarily or even partially by one's looks, it is in one's interests to conform as closely as possible to the current mainstream societal ideal of perfection, and thereby appeal to the broadest possible audience.
 
Kayleigh Katz said:
Oh, I see. Its like when the media tells me Britney Spears is important and I have to go along with it.

FWIW, I don't see where anyone has to "go along with it" but the more I think about it I'm intrigued by the idea of having sex with a man that used to be a woman. ;)
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Well good luck with that. I heard the pseudo penis is fairly shoddy and worthless.
 
Lightdemon said:
So what if he thinks he's a woman? Many transsexuals who have gone through therapy aren't unstable. They aren't "insane." Again, it doesn't make sense to use words such as "mentally unstable" or "mental defect" to describe the situation.

There is a pathology, yes. But is it dangerous? No. Harmful? No.
So what makes them unfit to be a teacher, or any other career?
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It is harmful if my kids are taught that men can become women and vice versa. It's a lie. A lie a certain sect of society is trying to pass off as truth and anyone who points out the lie is an asshole.

I think it's probably relatively harmless in most jobs, but teaching is another story. As far as I'm concerned a teacher teaching my preschooler that men can become women would be as offensive as teaching them all about God.
 
Welp, it's been an interesting... and enlightening... discussion, but I honestly feel that we are now in the area of deep and impenatrable personal prejudice to the point where further conversation will be unhelpful. I'll be tottling off now.
 
Lightdemon said:
That part was especially funny.

The part where we disagree on, the pretending, is essential. It is the part where the individual decides who he/she is. That decision should be made by the individual and no one else.

I'm not going to bring up all the arguments again, there were plenty on hermaphrodites, XX males, XY females, etc.

You seem to think that nature defines who we are, but I don't know what the hell nature is exactly.

But I guess I'll just end here.
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Why end it? We're actually getting somewhere...:confused:

I don't typically indulge the nature fallacy because you're right...nature is so abstract a concept that you can't use it to define anything because nature, itself, has no definition.

I just think that while the delusion the transexual suffers may be very real in his/her mind, it is not reality. Reality is that the DNA imprint and the physical morphology dictate an absolute biological sex. That biological sex defines the physical gender of the transexual.

Now they may sexually identify in any way they like or adopt any gender role they feel comfortable with. All of that is abstract and more a construct of society than anything else. Fine. But I do not think it is good for anyone involved to indulge the idea that that the physical/biological gender is anything more or can be anything other than what it is.

If the transexual sexually identifies as an effeminate submissive who takes the passive position sexually with the male gender, then let them do that while wearing high heels for all anyone cares. It's their right, whatever.

But it is an affront to reason and to rational sensibilities to suggest that the transexual, despite surgeries, hormones, and a plethora of tolerance and compassion is anything different than the physical gender it has been since birth.
 
talloulou said:
It is harmful if my kids are taught that men can become women and vice versa. It's a lie. A lie a certain sect of society is trying to pass off as truth and anyone who points out the lie is an asshole.
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That sucks for Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, and of course Halloween.

I think it's probably relatively harmless in most jobs, but teaching is another story. As far as I'm concerned a teacher teaching my preschooler that men can become women would be as offensive as teaching them all about God.
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There's a lot that we need to stop teaching, actually. There are plenty of lies that we tell our children, especially in elementary.
 
1069 said:
Logical fallacy, in that it hinges on the presupposition that Carmen Electra and Catherine Zeta-Jones (as well as most other models and celebrities) "felt unattractive" and/ or had "a poor self-image" to start with.
You have no way of knowing any such thing, and I for one doubt that it's the case. Both women (and numerous other actresses) began to attain celebrity status before their surgeries, and were probably advised (correctly) by their agents that such *improvements* would advance their careers.
When one makes one's living primarily or even partially by one's looks, it is in one's interests to conform as closely as possible to the current mainstream societal ideal of perfection, and thereby appeal to the broadest possible audience.
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It is outside the realm of possibility to me that someone would inflict pain and mutilation on their bodies to affect a lie for themselves. I think that may be where the whole "does not compute" point is for me in all this.
 
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