Should schools push physical math more

Felis Leo said:

Yes. Bring back more physical mathematics, bring back Latin & Greek, bring back fine art classes, and bring back cursive.

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I taught elementary school physical education for 33 years ang studies show that students perform better academically if they get at least an hour of physical activity a day even if that means less time with the books.

beerftw said:

The space race was not, however people like machinists were despite needing extreme amounts of math. Even then if you did not know school dropouts were very high leading up to ww2, it was a thing called the great depression and many chose enter the workforce as fast as they could doing any job they could to help their family make ends meet, it was not uncommon then to have extended families all pulling together on whatever crap sidejobs they could do survive, while living in the same household. This however did not make them stupid, this is how school dropouts were commonly used during ww2 for highly skilled tasks, most retained math and other skills well and were able to perform jobs that today people struggle with due to the math required.

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I only took issue with your reference to NASA.

Bullseye said:

If you trust the technology you're utilizing.

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I remember in my Statistics class, the instructor insisted that we demonstrate that the computer or program didn't have a bug in it. That meant doing the matrix math with pen and paper for at least the first three predictive values.

beerftw said:

Should we push it more? I have noticed cursive is becoming a foreign language, however That is an observation and this is on math. I work in an industry that thrived for almor 3/4 a century on fractionals, slide rulers and dial calipers and micrometers.

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I have some astronomer friends that argue whether or not "iPad astronomers" are "real astronomers".

The question at the end of the day is "is the job getting done"? So, yes, they are real astronomers.

The dilemma here is that there is only so much time to teach kids, so do you teach them fundamentals and leave them illiterate with tech? Or do you try to teach them some of everything? If you made me decide, I'd say they go with the fundamentals for the first half of every school year and then do the same thing with modern tech the second half.

But they'd need about 2 more years of schooling than they currently get.

SDET said:

I remember in my Statistics class, the instructor insisted that we demonstrate that the computer or program didn't have a bug in it. That meant doing the matrix math with pen and paper for at least the first three predictive values.

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Good point. Blindly accepting the result can lead to problems.

redrover said:

I taught elementary school physical education for 33 years ang studies show that students perform better academically if they get at least an hour of physical activity a day even if that means less time with the books.

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That is an important part. The mind and body are tied together. Pumping blood through the brain and increasing oxygen content are important. When I was a young man, there were no video games. We played sports after school until it got dark or we had to go to dinner. In those days, there were few obese children. Today, too many kids spend their free time playing video games and 40% are obese. They are not growing physically or socially due to this.

Like the OP, I was in the automotive business for most of my career. I recall trying to train a new guy on checking front end steering and suspension components for state mandated inspection. I directed him to grab the tire at “12 & 6” to check suspension specs and to grab the tire at “9 & 3” to check the steering integrity. All I got was a blank stare.......15-20 years ago.

beerftw said:

Should we push it more? I have noticed cursive is becoming a foreign language, however That is an observation and this is on math. I work in an industry that thrived for almor 3/4 a century on fractionals, slide rulers and dial calipers and micrometers.

I accidentally knocked over locktite on my lyman dial caliper, I asked for another one from the matco truck and the guy had to dig and admitted no one buys those anymore or even knows how to read them, I could not understand why, the layout is simple in a dial, much easier than the vernier calipers I learned on, I am not even that old, only 33 yet I have watched entire sets of tools and math dissapear, I can only imagine how grumpy the seniors must be at this point.

Another one I dealt with was customers would bring middle school aged kids with them when waiting on repairs, I always lose it when I hear what do those hands mean and why does that clock not just say the time in straight numbers, I mean it is in fractions of 5 people between numbers, how hard is that?


Another one was doing multiplication and division without a calculator, I still can not fathom graduation highschool without doing this on paper, when I went through it was mandatory, if you could not do this without a calculator you were doomed to be a ditch digger at best, now it seems everyone comes out like this, like standards were dumbed down with the assumption tech will wipe your a## for you and knowledge is a waste of time.


I think we need to bring back more hard math, hand writing on paper, using a slide rule and understanding dials guages fractions etc as it seems like at the current rate we might have to start importing people from other nations to do even the most basic of tasks due to how bad basic skills are being sidelined for tech, remember tech is only as good as those who create it and work on it, if the tech is smarter than those who use it it is doomed to fail.

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No, schools should not cling to outdated tools and outdated methods out of nostalgia for the past. We don't need to bring back "hard math" (whatever that means). We don't need to emphasize handwriting because few people need to do it on a regular basis. Why in god's name would anyone need to learn to use a slide rule when everyone carries a scientific calculator in their pocket 24/7?

beerftw said:

Should we push it more? I have noticed cursive is becoming a foreign language, however That is an observation and this is on math. I work in an industry that thrived for almor 3/4 a century on fractionals, slide rulers and dial calipers and micrometers.

I accidentally knocked over locktite on my lyman dial caliper, I asked for another one from the matco truck and the guy had to dig and admitted no one buys those anymore or even knows how to read them, I could not understand why, the layout is simple in a dial, much easier than the vernier calipers I learned on, I am not even that old, only 33 yet I have watched entire sets of tools and math dissapear, I can only imagine how grumpy the seniors must be at this point.

Another one I dealt with was customers would bring middle school aged kids with them when waiting on repairs, I always lose it when I hear what do those hands mean and why does that clock not just say the time in straight numbers, I mean it is in fractions of 5 people between numbers, how hard is that?


Another one was doing multiplication and division without a calculator, I still can not fathom graduation highschool without doing this on paper, when I went through it was mandatory, if you could not do this without a calculator you were doomed to be a ditch digger at best, now it seems everyone comes out like this, like standards were dumbed down with the assumption tech will wipe your a## for you and knowledge is a waste of time.


I think we need to bring back more hard math, hand writing on paper, using a slide rule and understanding dials guages fractions etc as it seems like at the current rate we might have to start importing people from other nations to do even the most basic of tasks due to how bad basic skills are being sidelined for tech, remember tech is only as good as those who create it and work on it, if the tech is smarter than those who use it it is doomed to fail.

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One could use WolframAlpha or similar software to show someone the derivative of a function. It's as simple as keying in a few keystrokes into the computer.

It gives no understanding of WHY the derivative of a constant is zero or WHY the derivative of f(x) = |x| is undefined at 0.

Calculators are supposed to be tools for higher-level math students to crunch numbers. Not to build understanding. If they need help understanding a concept then a calculator is unlikely to get them there.

molten_dragon said:

No, schools should not cling to outdated tools and outdated methods out of nostalgia for the past. We don't need to bring back "hard math" (whatever that means). We don't need to emphasize handwriting because few people need to do it on a regular basis. Why in god's name would anyone need to learn to use a slide rule when everyone carries a scientific calculator in their pocket 24/7?

Click to expand...

What do you do when the power goes off? Young men need to learn to use a blade before an electric razor: all new drivers need to learn a clutch first before an automatic, change a tire and a few other things that will see them through unexpected road blocks/speed bumps encountered in life....

Phys251 said:

One could use WolframAlpha or similar software to show someone the derivative of a function. It's as simple as keying in a few keystrokes into the computer.

It gives no understanding of WHY the derivative of a constant is zero or WHY the derivative of f(x) = |x| is undefined at 0.

Calculators are supposed to be tools for higher-level math students to crunch numbers. Not to build understanding. If they need help understanding a concept then a calculator is unlikely to get them there.

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I agree calculaters are tool of higher learning, and that they do not replace fundamentals. In my world answers only matter if you understand how and why they got there, because if you do not understand you are only having an answer with no logic tree to work with. I deal with hydraulic diagrams a lot, I get to deal with finding xyz mystery problem, someone says jam a stronger spring behind the spool valve, but I hate that answer, I want to know why it was done and if it is even a good fix, as often xyz spring fixes customer complain but causes an imbalance in the system which affects other parts, like overpressure causing the converter to damage an engine or robbing the balance of lubrication to pressure.

molten_dragon said:

No, schools should not cling to outdated tools and outdated methods out of nostalgia for the past. We don't need to bring back "hard math" (whatever that means). We don't need to emphasize handwriting because few people need to do it on a regular basis. Why in god's name would anyone need to learn to use a slide rule when everyone carries a scientific calculator in their pocket 24/7?

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I use handwriting daily, my coworkers do, most people do, unless you run a job that only deals with sitting behind a computer handwriting will be used. Yeah let me walk around with an ipad and email every note when it take 5 seconds for me to write it on a piece of paper.

What you call outdated tools and principles are actually used widely, though are being phased out for convenience. Hard math means literally math on pencil and paper, in all major forms rather than simplifying it or pushing the smart phone and calculator as replacement for real knowledge and brain developement. Algrebra for example is not required in 30 out of 50 states, but rather 3 years in high school take some course of math, In junior high school I had to do algebra and was mandatory, it was a learning experience, it was literally just math backwards but it trained your brain to see the answer and go backwards to find the solution that created the answer.

Hamish Howl said:

I have some astronomer friends that argue whether or not "iPad astronomers" are "real astronomers".

The question at the end of the day is "is the job getting done"? So, yes, they are real astronomers.

The dilemma here is that there is only so much time to teach kids, so do you teach them fundamentals and leave them illiterate with tech? Or do you try to teach them some of everything? If you made me decide, I'd say they go with the fundamentals for the first half of every school year and then do the same thing with modern tech the second half.

But they'd need about 2 more years of schooling than they currently get.

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Technically if the ipad did the task of astronamer like by let's say linking to satellites with telescopes, that would not make them less of an astronomer rather the breakdown would be whether they understood the principles and techniques of that field and used the tool as convenient or used the tool as a replacement for the understanding of that field.

beerftw said:

Should we push it more? I have noticed cursive is becoming a foreign language, however That is an observation and this is on math. I work in an industry that thrived for almor 3/4 a century on fractionals, slide rulers and dial calipers and micrometers.

I accidentally knocked over locktite on my lyman dial caliper, I asked for another one from the matco truck and the guy had to dig and admitted no one buys those anymore or even knows how to read them, I could not understand why, the layout is simple in a dial, much easier than the vernier calipers I learned on, I am not even that old, only 33 yet I have watched entire sets of tools and math dissapear, I can only imagine how grumpy the seniors must be at this point.

Another one I dealt with was customers would bring middle school aged kids with them when waiting on repairs, I always lose it when I hear what do those hands mean and why does that clock not just say the time in straight numbers, I mean it is in fractions of 5 people between numbers, how hard is that?


Another one was doing multiplication and division without a calculator, I still can not fathom graduation highschool without doing this on paper, when I went through it was mandatory, if you could not do this without a calculator you were doomed to be a ditch digger at best, now it seems everyone comes out like this, like standards were dumbed down with the assumption tech will wipe your a## for you and knowledge is a waste of time.


I think we need to bring back more hard math, hand writing on paper, using a slide rule and understanding dials guages fractions etc as it seems like at the current rate we might have to start importing people from other nations to do even the most basic of tasks due to how bad basic skills are being sidelined for tech, remember tech is only as good as those who create it and work on it, if the tech is smarter than those who use it it is doomed to fail.

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Well, when I was in grammar school in the 60s, we were drilled in the times tables. There is no way anyone could get out of fifth grade without knowing every multiple up to 12. To this day, I can still remember them on demand. I don't know what happened to public school teaching but am just glad I went through it in Californian when we were the leader of the nation in education. I think that something happened in the 70s that just went wrong. I think the feel good sentiments of good people just took over. Did I experience teaching that made the slower kids uncomfortable? You bet. But I also felt bored out of my mind waiting for them. But I can say without a doubt that despite my boredom, every kid knew those damn table by the time we got out of sixth grade. In seventh we were all tracked. Smart kids in one group, the rest in another group. But heres the thing about kids. Some of the kids that I thought were dumb turned out to be smarter then **** as adults. Some kids just grow up at different rates. But one thing is true. The kids that were exceptional early continued to be exceptional. I pity school teachers now. When we were kids teachers ruled. Our parents never took our side. We knew that when we screwed up at school, all hell was going to break loose at home. As the boomers grew up, we wanted to be so different then our parents that we blew it. Yes our parents were tough, they went through the depression and WW2. Their parents were even tougher. At some point, us boomers just accepted the idea that kids were angels. I can say without a doubt, my parents and all the parents of all my friends considered their kids like putty to be molded into responsible and respectful people. We lost that in our desire to be nice.

The United States used to be ranked number one in math, science, and reading (PISA). We produced the best scientist, inventors and innovators in the world. Then more enlightened educators gained control of the system. Now we are not even ranked in the top 70.
PISA Worldwide Ranking - average score of math, science and reading - FactsMaps

When I was a young man, people with little education took jobs in plants and on assembly lines where they pushed buttons to make machines do work. Now that passes as education. If you can push a button on a calculator or google a research paper you are considered educated. Dogs, mice and even chickens can be taught to push the right button. Some on this board must consider them well educated.

Being able to get some machine to do your work is not education. Education is knowing the details of what will occur when you push that button. Education is being able to devise a better method of getting that job done.

When I used to hire managers, I understood there are three levels of knowledge.
1. Basic knowledge. If I push a button X will be done.
2. Working knowledge. When I push this button, A will start this process, the B will do this process, on and on with the end result being X.
3. Comprehensive knowledge. I want X so I need to cause process A and that is accomplished by infusing a solution of this makeup into an environment of XYZ which will give me the desired reaction, then on and on.

When the operator pushes button X and it don't work. Manager 1, calls someone for assistance. Manager 2, looks at the different processes and determines in which process the problem exists. Manager 3, tells you where the problem is, how to fix it and how to make it so it won't occur again.

Our education systems are geared for teach level 1 because they are geared toward teaching the lowest level of students. Our educators consider it a win when they can drag some underachiever to a level where he can make a living and do basic life functions. They want to eliminate all the hard subjects because they feel they discourage students. If you don't push kids to achieve they will do the required and that becomes their level of achievement.

beerftw said:

Technically if the ipad did the task of astronamer like by let's say linking to satellites with telescopes, that would not make them less of an astronomer rather the breakdown would be whether they understood the principles and techniques of that field and used the tool as convenient or used the tool as a replacement for the understanding of that field.

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The argument is that because the astronomers aren't freezing their asses off on Kitt Peak, they aren't *real* astronomers.

Real astronomers in the modern era should be nowhere near a telescope. Running the telescope is for grad students. Fixing the telescope is for facilities geeks. Back in the day, the astronomers had to do it all themselves, and dealt with a trickle of data.

That data is now more like Niagara falls, so after an astronomer does their time in the grad school gulag, there is no argument for them taking up precious parking space at the actual observatory.

Hamish Howl said:

The argument is that because the astronomers aren't freezing their asses off on Kitt Peak, they aren't *real* astronomers.

Real astronomers in the modern era should be nowhere near a telescope. Running the telescope is for grad students. Fixing the telescope is for facilities geeks. Back in the day, the astronomers had to do it all themselves, and dealt with a trickle of data.

That data is now more like Niagara falls, so after an astronomer does their time in the grad school gulag, there is no argument for them taking up precious parking space at the actual observatory.

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I do not play with astronomy anymore as when I did I was nothing more than an amateur noob, however then I found the telescope more beneficial than analyzing hubble space images, as I had full control of the telescope, and could change what and where the telescope was aimed at by my own choice on my time schedule. Given the vastness of space I can not see telescopes ever becoming an obsolete tool, while satellite scopes reach out further, they are at the whim of the satellite as not ever astronomer has their own personal sat in orbit to do as they please, someone serious would use both methods and not shun one as inconvenient as that field never had convenient in it's title.

Don't get me started on this subject. Besides, don't you know math is racist?

My friend Brian teaches high voltage underground for the local public utility. He related to me that the other day some of his new "probationers" were using a measuring tape to measure some wire. They were calling out the measurement, "12 feet and 3 marks"... or "7 feet and 6 marks".... They couldn't read a measuring tape. Young men in their 20's. sad really.

I think calculators are fine ONCE students master basic math on PAPER. They also need to learn the multiplication table, or at least as much of it as they can.

Being able to do at least some math in your head makes you a better thinker overall.

BTW; I had five years of Latin in school. Most of our root words, prefixes and suffixes we use in English are derived from Latin. It has always helped me identify words that I didn't know the meaning of.

So, yeah, you all that think the fundamentals are worthless, haven't taught kids from India who have mastered those fundamentals. You kids will be working for them one day, if they can get a job.

beerftw said:

I do not play with astronomy anymore as when I did I was nothing more than an amateur noob, however then I found the telescope more beneficial than analyzing hubble space images, as I had full control of the telescope, and could change what and where the telescope was aimed at by my own choice on my time schedule. Given the vastness of space I can not see telescopes ever becoming an obsolete tool, while satellite scopes reach out further, they are at the whim of the satellite as not ever astronomer has their own personal sat in orbit to do as they please, someone serious would use both methods and not shun one as inconvenient as that field never had convenient in it's title.

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My argument, from the 18 months I spent up there (I was handling some drinking water issues they had, not on staff), proper astronomers get in the way.

Ever watch 4 people try to drive a car at once? It's the same effect.

Hamish Howl said:

My argument, from the 18 months I spent up there (I was handling some drinking water issues they had, not on staff), proper astronomers get in the way.

Ever watch 4 people try to drive a car at once? It's the same effect.

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It sounds like 4 chiefs and no indians. Hence why personal telescopes are a valuable tool, sharing a telescope in person or through an app makes no difference as you still need to share it, often with people who want to do the opposite of you. I mean if I was in charge I would have just made it in turns while bringing my own scope, while not as powerful allowing me to do my own thing, vs having 4 drivers trying to decide which direction to go.

beerftw said:

It sounds like 4 chiefs and no indians. Hence why personal telescopes are a valuable tool, sharing a telescope in person or through an app makes no difference as you still need to share it, often with people who want to do the opposite of you. I mean if I was in charge I would have just made it in turns while bringing my own scope, while not as powerful allowing me to do my own thing, vs having 4 drivers trying to decide which direction to go.

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It would be a bit of a trick bringing a 4 meter mirror up the mountain.

Rexedgar said:

Like the OP, I was in the automotive business for most of my career. I recall trying to train a new guy on checking front end steering and suspension components for state mandated inspection. I directed him to grab the tire at “12 & 6” to check suspension specs and to grab the tire at “9 & 3” to check the steering integrity. All I got was a blank stare.......15-20 years ago.

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Automotive went to hell, most new people are either parts changers or straight up jump ship. Tried some new guys at the shop I work for, things like remove bellhousing bolts last not first and disconnect the battery before you remove anything electrical especially computers and starters seemed foreign to them. It gets worse as trying to train them it goes over their heads. It gets even worse at diagnostic, if a computer fails xyz mechanic replaces it, it fails 6 more times under warranty and gets replaced six more times, but they never stop to wonder maybe there is a reason, critical thinking skills went out the window, people just want answers not how they got them or what everything inbetween means.


For example a for escape can fry a computer from a bad coil, change the computer and it runs okish for a few months then it is back, if it fries the driver for coils or injectors, logic would say to investigate the systems tied to that driver on the computer, not just throw a new one on and hope it works because they do not understand the system but someone on youtube told them it fixes it.

beerftw said:

Should we push it more? I have noticed cursive is becoming a foreign language, however That is an observation and this is on math. I work in an industry that thrived for almor 3/4 a century on fractionals, slide rulers and dial calipers and micrometers.

I accidentally knocked over locktite on my lyman dial caliper, I asked for another one from the matco truck and the guy had to dig and admitted no one buys those anymore or even knows how to read them, I could not understand why, the layout is simple in a dial, much easier than the vernier calipers I learned on, I am not even that old, only 33 yet I have watched entire sets of tools and math dissapear, I can only imagine how grumpy the seniors must be at this point.

Another one I dealt with was customers would bring middle school aged kids with them when waiting on repairs, I always lose it when I hear what do those hands mean and why does that clock not just say the time in straight numbers, I mean it is in fractions of 5 people between numbers, how hard is that?


Another one was doing multiplication and division without a calculator, I still can not fathom graduation highschool without doing this on paper, when I went through it was mandatory, if you could not do this without a calculator you were doomed to be a ditch digger at best, now it seems everyone comes out like this, like standards were dumbed down with the assumption tech will wipe your a## for you and knowledge is a waste of time.


I think we need to bring back more hard math, hand writing on paper, using a slide rule and understanding dials guages fractions etc as it seems like at the current rate we might have to start importing people from other nations to do even the most basic of tasks due to how bad basic skills are being sidelined for tech, remember tech is only as good as those who create it and work on it, if the tech is smarter than those who use it it is doomed to fail.

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I think its important to be able to do a fair amount of math in your head. Pushing buttons on calculators or computers is less likely to give you that ability... so, I still believe in showing people how do math the old way.

As a matter of illustration, as a pilot, I had to learn navigation using very crude devices and dead reckoning, even in the GPS era. There are times when having an innate sense about things can save your life.

Rexedgar said:

What do you do when the power goes off?

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I've never had an emergency where the power was out and I needed to do math more complicated than basic arithmetic.

Rexedgar said:

Young men need to learn to use a blade before an electric razor

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Why on earth would they need to? Shave with whatever you want to shave with, it's not like using a non-electric razor is some sort of fundamental life skill.

Rexedgar said:

all new drivers need to learn a clutch first before an automatic

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Again, why? Manual transmissions are old, outdated technology. 95% of the new cars sold in the US have an automatic, and more than 50% of the cars sold in the rest of the world have an automatic. Why learn to drive something that's going away so quickly? Especially given the fact that within 50 years transmissions (and probably driving in general) will have gone the way of the dodo.

Rexedgar said:

change a tire and a few other things that will see them through unexpected road blocks/speed bumps encountered in life....

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This I agree with because it's a different and far more sensible suggestion than the others you posted.

molten_dragon said:

I've never had an emergency where the power was out and I needed to do math more complicated than basic arithmetic.



Why on earth would they need to? Shave with whatever you want to shave with, it's not like using a non-electric razor is some sort of fundamental life skill.



Again, why? Manual transmissions are old, outdated technology. 95% of the new cars sold in the US have an automatic, and more than 50% of the cars sold in the rest of the world have an automatic. Why learn to drive something that's going away so quickly? Especially given the fact that within 50 years transmissions (and probably driving in general) will have gone the way of the dodo.



This I agree with because it's a different and far more sensible suggestion than the others you posted.

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Learn the basics and you are better prepared when things throw you a curve. The above three you find so insensible are bit a few examples of preparing for the trials and tribulations encountered in life.