View Poll Results: Democrats only -- Which of these four would you rather have as your nominee?

Voters
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  • Buttigieg

    3 11.11%
  • Sanders

    11 40.74%
  • Warren

    6 22.22%
  • Biden

    4 14.81%
  • Other

    3 11.11%
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Thread: Democrat voters only --- which of these four would you rather have as your nominee?

  1. #31
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    Re: Democrat voters only --- which of these four would you rather have as your nominee?

    Quote Originally Posted by bomberfox View Post
    Considering the several upon several potential nominees given a chance, this makes zero sense. Best focus on your own primary... oh wait
    The rank and file needs their show. The ending has already been written.

    I am not involved in any primary. I don't follow herds.
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  2. #32
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    Re: Democrat voters only --- which of these four would you rather have as your nominee?

    I don't care about the GOP.

    But...interestingly enough, back in 2016 the GOP Elites tried to do what the DNC Elites are doing now. Put on a show and then tell the rank and file who the nominee is. Jeb Bush was their choice. But then Trump happened and the GOP rank and file saw their chance to tell their Elites to go to hell.

    Too bad the Dem rank and file won't do the same.
    TANSTAAFL
    When I "dismiss" you it only means that I have determined that further discussion is useless or counter-productive. Don't take it personally. Go ahead and have your last word...and move on.

  3. #33
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    Re: Democrat voters only --- which of these four would you rather have as your nominee?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Yes, your claim was based on historical ignorance, I am aware of that.
    Ask any 2016 Bernie Bot about it.
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    When I "dismiss" you it only means that I have determined that further discussion is useless or counter-productive. Don't take it personally. Go ahead and have your last word...and move on.

  4. #34
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    Re: Democrat voters only --- which of these four would you rather have as your nominee?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Ask any 2016 Bernie Bot about it.
    They did not make the ignorant claim here, you did. Why the need to blame others for your words?
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  5. #35
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    Re: Democrat voters only --- which of these four would you rather have as your nominee?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Biden is too old. As to Sanders and Warren, the Democrats have never won a presidential election running so far to the left. In fact, the biggest defeats the party has had in the last century were all when they ran someone that ran well the left: McGovern, Mondale, and Dukakis.

    Now you might say "Well look how well Sanders polls against Trump." Polls right now are utterly meaningless. They are only polling those that are paying attention, which is always a minority of the electorate this early on. In the summer of 1988, Dukakis was polling as much as 30 points ahead of Bush, yet he ended up losing by a landslide come November.

    If this were any other election, if it was President Romney or some generic Republican in office right now, I would say run Sanders or Warren, lose in a landslide, and we can put this **** to bed for another generation, but its Trump, and we cannot afford to blow it and give an utterly despicable human being like Trump another 4 years.
    Your repeatedly debunked and laughably inapplicable McGovern comparisons aside, I have to admit I'm perplexed by someone who seems to recognize the grave severity of problems with this country, yet hopes that those scarce few politicos that can and probably will do something substantive about it, and others like them, will be annulled as a political force for the foreseeable future in favour of others that almost certainly won't.

    Having said that, even if Sanders or Warren lose (and it may be a real possibility with Warren as I feel she has issues with her general electability, agenda aside), you may well be disappointed at this somehow putting an end to the party's FDR wing; after all, Clinton and your centrists just presided over and were solely responsible for the party's recent and truly historic losses from 2012-2016, yet somehow they've endured as a political force and remain the overall dominant faction of the party despite their obvious and glaring incompetence.
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  6. #36
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    Re: Democrat voters only --- which of these four would you rather have as your nominee?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dans La Lune View Post
    FDR had polio.



    FDR.



    I notice you haven't listed a candidate you would choose. Lets hear it. Please tell me which candidate is a 'sure win' against Trump. Is it a center-left corporate hack? We just played that contest and HILLARY LOST.
    FDR did not run hard to the left in 1932. He ran as a moderate calling Hoover a big spender. He pivoted once elected.

    Of the candidates you listed, Mayor Pete would be the most electable against Trump.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  7. #37
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    Re: Democrat voters only --- which of these four would you rather have as your nominee?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    FDR did not run hard to the left in 1932. He ran as a moderate calling Hoover a big spender. He pivoted once elected.
    Wrong. Though he called out Hoover as a spender (and an ineffectual one at that, identifying him as responsible for the GD), the New Deal was on the ballot: The New Deal Was on the Ballot in 1932 | Modern American History | Cambridge Core


    Of the candidates you listed, Mayor Pete would be the most electable against Trump.
    Hilarious. According to what?
    "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." -Alberto Brandolini

  8. #38
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    Re: Democrat voters only --- which of these four would you rather have as your nominee?

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    Your repeatedly debunked and laughably inapplicable McGovern comparisons aside, I have to admit I'm perplexed by someone who seems to recognize the grave severity of problems with this country, yet hopes that those scarce few politicos that can and probably will do something substantive about it, and others like them, will be annulled as a political force for the foreseeable future in favour of others that almost certainly won't.

    Having said that, even if Sanders or Warren lose (and it may be a real possibility with Warren as I feel she has issues with her general electability, agenda aside), you may well be disappointed at this somehow putting an end to the party's FDR wing; after all, Clinton and your centrists just presided over and were solely responsible for the party's recent and truly historic losses from 2012-2016, yet somehow they've endured as a political force and remain the overall dominant faction of the party despite their obvious and glaring incompetence.
    In the last 50 years, 3 Democrats have won the presidency: Carter a Moderate, Clinton a Moderate / center left, Obama a Moderate / center left. Now, let's see who lost: McGovern who ran solidly to the left - lost in a landslide, Mondale who ran solidly to the left and lost in a landslide, Dukakis that ran as a liberal and lost in a landslide, Gore who ran Moderate / center left and only lost due to SCOTUS, Hillary who ran center left and lost, but won the popular vote. You want to hand Trump 40 states, run Sanders.

    As to 2012 - 2016, it was not the hardcore liberals that gave us back the house, it was mostly (wife a few exceptions) moderate / center left candidates that flipped Republican seats.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  9. #39
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    Re: Democrat voters only --- which of these four would you rather have as your nominee?

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    Wrong. Though he called out Hoover as a spender (and an ineffectual one at that, identifying him as responsible for the GD), the New Deal was on the ballot: The New Deal Was on the Ballot in 1932 | Modern American History | Cambridge Core




    Hilarious. According to what?
    Mayor Pete is a good speaker, has a lot of emotional intelligence, has impeccable character, knows policy, and is extremely intelligent. Basically, the guy is the exact opposite of Trump in every way. Moreover, he also knows that Medicare for All would be an utter disaster for Democrats in a general election.

    As to the 1932 election: Opinion | Which of the F.D.R. Wannabes Actually Understands New Deal Liberalism? - The New York Times
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  10. #40
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    Re: Democrat voters only --- which of these four would you rather have as your nominee?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    In the last 50 years, 3 Democrats have won the presidency: Carter a Moderate, Clinton a Moderate / center left, Obama a Moderate / center left...
    There's no denying that there was an overall right wing economic shift since Nixon. However, the context of the 70s to even the 90s is obviously very different from the political context of today, and Sanders is no McGovern, no Mondale, or Dukakis, nor is he impeded by their specific missteps and weaknesses, which in many cases had little to do with their policy stances, despite the general rightward economic shift; something that probably had much to do with Cold War sentiment/McCarthyism successfully exploited by conservatives, as well as the explosion of private money in politics since the Buckley v Valeo 76 ruling that constitutionally enshrined unlimited political spending.

    As to Obama, no, in actuality he ran in 2008 as a firmly left wing candidate, promising such things as a public option, saying he'd explore singlepayer, and in office pivoted to at best left of centre, and that's by the obviously very skewed American standard: Obama the Conservative | Tracking Obama's abandoning of the progressive agenda, and the disconnect between his words and deeds. . I would know; he fooled me in 2008, and I've since vowed never to be tricked or taken in by someone like him again: a speaker of platitudes with no substantive record who takes in untold amounts of money by private interests opposed to broad swaths of his platform.

    Having said that, there is also no denying that there are now the beginnings of a left wing shift in terms of progressive pillar policies such as singlepayer MFA and free public college; ideas that are not only now mainstream and entering firmly into daily discourse and discussion when they were all thought unthinkable not more than 4 years ago, but that now have consistent majoritarian popularity. Moreover, despite the Democrat reclamation of the house in 2018, largely off the back of how utterly terrible Trump has been, the fact remains, however you may wish to deny, spin or minimise it, that the centrists were about solely responsible for the historic losses of 2012 to 2016.

    Ultimately, you have essentially no basis for the assumption of Sanders' lack of electability save your own obvious and deep seated political biases, and a handful of comparatively ancient, anachronistic and above all inapplicable parallels specific to a completely different political context.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Mayor Pete is a good speaker, has a lot of emotional intelligence, has impeccable character, knows policy...
    Sanders is more complete an antithesis to Trump for starters.

    Second, this is all very anecdotal and ultimately trivial qualitative opinion that doesn't hold any water with respect to assessing Buttigieg's ultimate electability, which is actually pretty and consistently terrible in contrast to the big 3 per every presently available metric. I also don't see evidence of 'impeccable' character when it comes to his handling of South Bend, or his politicking in general, which amounts largely to the despised standard of being an opportunistic political weather vane, speaking in platitudes, and trying to be as noncommittally everything to everyone while dragging his feet on and deflecting from specifics. I agree that he's not at all bad at this out of favour conventional approach, but I certainly don't think it reflects well on him.


    As to your opinion column, that FDR's progressive ambitions were temporarily interrupted by the war or that he didn't, back in the 30s, take the then truly tremendous step of a universal national health program, doesn't belie the fact that he indeed ran as a stalwart progressive underlined by his New Deal and was thoroughly hated by the balance of monied interests at the time. The author opines, likely motivated by his biases, that FDR ran as a moderate in contradiction to the findings of historical scholars whose views are both more substantial and well researched, and whose analysis I value far more for obvious reasons.

    If there's anything truly of value from that piece it's that FDR had the GD to campaign on, but right now, we happen to be facing the worst economic inequality in American history, while real wages are struggling to keep pace with the cost of living as the overall zeitgeist increasingly moves in favour of the progressive agenda.
    Last edited by Surrealistik; 11-07-19 at 07:54 PM.
    "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." -Alberto Brandolini

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