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Adieu, Turkey: Should the United States end its alliance with Turkey?

Should America end its alliance with Turkey?

  • Total voters
    35
Felis Leo

Felis Leo

Moral clarity is needed
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The question up for discussion today: Should the United States end its alliance with Turkey?

Following Turkey's attack on the Kurds, supposedly the Kurdish Communist guerrilla faction (the PKK), a moment of realization has crystalized on both the political right and the political left, which has led many to call the American-Turkish alliance into question, some calling for the outright suspension or expulsion of Turkey from NATO (though there is no means to presently do so).

I, personally, am all for it. I used to love Turkey and its secular system of government, but have grown cooler towards it over time since Erdogan has turned himself into an Ottoman Pasha in all but name. NATO should, arguably, be the alliance of law-governed democracies against tyrannical dictatorships. But we have watched as an otherwise law-governed democracy has turned into an illiberal dictatorship right before our eyes. I do not think it is wise to bind ourselves to

What I am NOT asking:

1. I am not asking whether or not we should sanction or punish Turkey over the nation's variegated actual or alleged bad acts.
2. I am not asking whether or not we should aid Turkey's enemies against Turkey, or get into a direct military confrontation with Turkey.
3. I am not asking whether or not we should re-examine our alliance with any other countries other than Turkey. I do not want this to devolve into a "whataboutism" debate about our alliances with other countries which have governments that have done horrible things, or have been accused of doing so, though you can certainly bring it up if the principles which inform your choice are relevant to the discussion.

If you answer "Other," please tell us what you think the other alternative would be.
 
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Yes absolutely. Despite Trump and his supporters being huge fans of brutal dictatorships, America shouldn't be allies with them.

Now, watch a bunch of conservatives defend the honor and character of a Muslim theocratic dictatorship.
 
Felis Leo said:
The question up for discussion today: Should the United States end its alliance with Turkey?

Following Turkey's attack on the Kurds, supposedly the Kurdish Communist guerrilla faction (the PKK), a moment of realization has crystalized on both the political right and the political left, which has led many to call the American-Turkish alliance into question, some calling for the outright suspension or expulsion of Turkey from NATO (though there is no means to presently do so).

I, personally, am all for it. I used to love Turkey and its secular system of government, but have grown cooler towards it over time since Erdogan has turned himself into an Ottoman Pasha in all but name. NATO should, arguably, be the alliance of law-governed democracies against tyrannical dictatorships. But we have watched as an otherwise law-governed democracy has turned into an illiberal dictatorship right before our eyes. I do not think it is wise to bind ourselves to

What I am NOT asking:

1. I am not asking whether or not we should sanction or punish Turkey over the nation's variegated actual or alleged bad acts.
2. I am not asking whether or not we should aid Turkey's enemies against Turkey, or get into a direct military confrontation with Turkey.
3. I am not asking whether or not we should re-examine our alliance with any other countries other than Turkey. I do not want this to devolve into a "whataboutism" debate about our alliances with other countries which have governments which have done horrible things, or have been accused of doing so, though you can certainly bring it up if the principles which inform your choice are relevant to the discussion.
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How can you end an alliance with a NATO nation and still stay in NATO?
 
Not as long as Turkey is a member of NATO (whether it should be is a separate question). As of now, it is indeed a member of NATO, as is the USA, and we have several vital military bases in Turkey. Personally, I'd prefer that we not lose that vital location to Russia and Putin, who would be utterly beside himself with glee should Turkey kick the USA out and invite Russia to move in, taking over everything America and its taxpayers have invested.
 
Felis Leo said:
The question up for discussion today: Should the United States end its alliance with Turkey?

Following Turkey's attack on the Kurds, supposedly the Kurdish Communist guerrilla faction (the PKK), a moment of realization has crystalized on both the political right and the political left, which has led many to call the American-Turkish alliance into question, some calling for the outright suspension or expulsion of Turkey from NATO (though there is no means to presently do so).

I, personally, am all for it. I used to love Turkey and its secular system of government, but have grown cooler towards it over time since Erdogan has turned himself into an Ottoman Pasha in all but name. NATO should, arguably, be the alliance of law-governed democracies against tyrannical dictatorships. But we have watched as an otherwise law-governed democracy has turned into an illiberal dictatorship right before our eyes. I do not think it is wise to bind ourselves to

What I am NOT asking:

1. I am not asking whether or not we should sanction or punish Turkey over the nation's variegated actual or alleged bad acts.
2. I am not asking whether or not we should aid Turkey's enemies against Turkey, or get into a direct military confrontation with Turkey.
3. I am not asking whether or not we should re-examine our alliance with any other countries other than Turkey. I do not want this to devolve into a "whataboutism" debate about our alliances with other countries which have governments that have done horrible things, or have been accused of doing so, though you can certainly bring it up if the principles which inform your choice are relevant to the discussion.

If you answer "Other," please tell us what you think the other alternative would be.
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The only way we could end the alliance is to leave NATO and that won't happen. It is the Costco of the Military Industrial Complex.
 
I have always viewed Turkey in the old way. By this I mean that Istanbul/Constantinople was once considered the bridge between Europe and Asia. The present government is trying to keep a foot on both sides of the bridge. I don’t know the procedure to remove/sanction a NATO member is, and during our present government, I don’t think there is a chance of that. I feel that Turkey has been drifting to the Asia side of the bridge for some years. The last large tell was the purchase of Russian AA missiles, S-400.
Seems interesting to be equipped with US fighter jets and then buy Russian AA missiles. Could be very valuable info to pit the to systems against one another in a non-hostile environment.......
 
No we should not. We need to make accommodations with Turkey.

You can’t make these decisions without consulting a map. This is one way we keep The Russian fleet bottled up in the Black sea. Their subs can’t sneak out without us knowing.
Turkey makes too much money on NATO.

FD334EE9-5634-486A-9B9F-E618E7179B11.jpg
 
Drawdown said:
The only way we could end the alliance is to leave NATO and that won't happen. It is the Costco of the Military Industrial Complex.
Click to expand...

trump isn’t done being tough with erDOGan until he gives him our F-35, thus passing that technology along to Putin.

Btw, erDOGan is the Israeli name for this ethnic-cleansing butcher who’s using jihadi proxies, now including Daesh, to slaughter our former allies.

Turkey brags of how this isn’t a cease-fire, and they’re correct, as they continue to shell the Kurds.
 
chuckiechan said:
No we should not. We need to make accommodations with Turkey.

You can’t make these decisions without consulting a map. This is one way we keep The Russian fleet bottled up in the Black sea. Their subs can’t sneak out without us knowing.
Turkey makes too much money on NATO.



View attachment 67266490
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Black Sea Fleet controls the leased naval facility at Tartus. I expect there to be expansion there soon.
 
On one hand, America originally made an alliance with Turkey to box in the Soviets. On the other hand, Russia poses very little threat to the US (at least militarily).
 
Felis Leo said:
The question up for discussion today: Should the United States end its alliance with Turkey?

Following Turkey's attack on the Kurds, supposedly the Kurdish Communist guerrilla faction (the PKK), a moment of realization has crystalized on both the political right and the political left, which has led many to call the American-Turkish alliance into question, some calling for the outright suspension or expulsion of Turkey from NATO (though there is no means to presently do so).

I, personally, am all for it. I used to love Turkey and its secular system of government, but have grown cooler towards it over time since Erdogan has turned himself into an Ottoman Pasha in all but name. NATO should, arguably, be the alliance of law-governed democracies against tyrannical dictatorships. But we have watched as an otherwise law-governed democracy has turned into an illiberal dictatorship right before our eyes. I do not think it is wise to bind ourselves to

What I am NOT asking:

1. I am not asking whether or not we should sanction or punish Turkey over the nation's variegated actual or alleged bad acts.
2. I am not asking whether or not we should aid Turkey's enemies against Turkey, or get into a direct military confrontation with Turkey.
3. I am not asking whether or not we should re-examine our alliance with any other countries other than Turkey. I do not want this to devolve into a "whataboutism" debate about our alliances with other countries which have governments that have done horrible things, or have been accused of doing so, though you can certainly bring it up if the principles which inform your choice are relevant to the discussion.

If you answer "Other," please tell us what you think the other alternative would be.
Click to expand...

"Law-abiding democracy" (a vague term that means whatever those using it want it to mean) is not now nor has it ever been a requirement for NATO membership. NATO has at times included both illiberal democracies (such as Portugal and Greece) as well as explicitly autocratic states (such as Spain). In any case, another country's form of government is irrelevant.

I voted "other" because I'm highly sympathetic to the view that we should get out of NATO entirely. NATO was formed for the purpose of preventing the spread of Soviet communism, which no longer exists. Our foreign policy today should be directed to combating China's imperial ambitions. Russia would be a useful (and natural) ally in this struggle, if we weren't held back by a bunch of useless alliances with former Russian satellites.

If there were a way to disentangle ourselves from some but not other NATO alliances, it might be worthwhile to retain the old NATO while dropping the former communist bloc (which should've never been admitted), but that isn't possible, so we should probably just get out.
 
All Nato members should end their alliance with Turkey and the EU should end their negotiations with Turkey's membership of the EU and should end Turkey's special status, meaning Turkey outside of any customs deals and Turkish citizens needing visa's to enter the EU.
 
Rexedgar said:
Black Sea Fleet controls the leased naval facility at Tartus. I expect there to be expansion there soon.
Click to expand...

That is all true, but too many people pull solutions out of their ass without even looking at a map. If Turkey was in the middle of the Gobi desert, we never would have heard of them.
 
Felis Leo said:
The question up for discussion today: Should the United States end its alliance with Turkey?

Following Turkey's attack on the Kurds, supposedly the Kurdish Communist guerrilla faction (the PKK), a moment of realization has crystalized on both the political right and the political left, which has led many to call the American-Turkish alliance into question, some calling for the outright suspension or expulsion of Turkey from NATO (though there is no means to presently do so).

I, personally, am all for it. I used to love Turkey and its secular system of government, but have grown cooler towards it over time since Erdogan has turned himself into an Ottoman Pasha in all but name. NATO should, arguably, be the alliance of law-governed democracies against tyrannical dictatorships. But we have watched as an otherwise law-governed democracy has turned into an illiberal dictatorship right before our eyes. I do not think it is wise to bind ourselves to

What I am NOT asking:

1. I am not asking whether or not we should sanction or punish Turkey over the nation's variegated actual or alleged bad acts.
2. I am not asking whether or not we should aid Turkey's enemies against Turkey, or get into a direct military confrontation with Turkey.
3. I am not asking whether or not we should re-examine our alliance with any other countries other than Turkey. I do not want this to devolve into a "whataboutism" debate about our alliances with other countries which have governments that have done horrible things, or have been accused of doing so, though you can certainly bring it up if the principles which inform your choice are relevant to the discussion.

If you answer "Other," please tell us what you think the other alternative would be.
Click to expand...

It's time to give Turkey an ultimatum: Leave the Kurds the **** alone, or our alliance with you is done. Best to luck to Turkey fending off Russian aggression if we ever get to that point.
 
Grand Mal said:
How can you end an alliance with a NATO nation and still stay in NATO?
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Trump supporters cheering on a conflict between Russia and Turkey in Syria.

Pretty much if Russia "handles" Turkey then that's the end of NATO as we know it. Just what Putin wanted. Kind of odd Putin's goals are being realized. I'm not the one that thinks Trump is taking direct orders from Putin. But, I do think Putin outsmarts Trump at every step.
 
AmNat said:
"Law-abiding democracy" (a vague term that means whatever those using it want it to mean) is not now nor has it ever been a requirement for NATO membership. NATO has at times included both illiberal democracies (such as Portugal and Greece) as well as explicitly autocratic states (such as Spain). In any case, another country's form of government is irrelevant.

I voted "other" because I'm highly sympathetic to the view that we should get out of NATO entirely. NATO was formed for the purpose of preventing the spread of Soviet communism, which no longer exists. Our foreign policy today should be directed to combating China's imperial ambitions. Russia would be a useful (and natural) ally in this struggle, if we weren't held back by a bunch of useless alliances with former Russian satellites.

If there were a way to disentangle ourselves from some but not other NATO alliances, it might be worthwhile to retain the old NATO while dropping the former communist bloc (which should've never been admitted), but that isn't possible, so we should probably just get out.
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I said "law governed" not "law abiding," AmNat. By law-governed, I mean that the nation in question holds to rule of law, in which the power of government is constrained and the rights of individuals are protected and the nation's government cannot engage in arbitrary abuses of power against individuals. But your points is taken regarding Portugal and Greece. At the time of its joining, Turkey had better democratic norms than either of those two states.
 
Winston said:
Trump supporters cheering on a conflict between Russia and Turkey in Syria.

Pretty much if Russia "handles" Turkey then that's the end of NATO as we know it. Just what Putin wanted. Kind of odd Putin's goals are being realized. I'm not the one that thinks Trump is taking direct orders from Putin. But, I do think Putin outsmarts Trump at every step.
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The Trump supporters are deliberately conflating the need not to invade another Middle Eastern country with the need to protect our allies and prevent a literal genocide.

Some wars are worth fighting, because there can be even more hellish things than war.
 
chuckiechan said:
That is all true, but too many people pull solutions out of their ass without even looking at a map. If Turkey was in the middle of the Gobi desert, we never would have heard of them.
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If my sister had balls she'd be my brother. If Turkey is attacked or even threatened by Russia NATO would have to support them.
 
Felis Leo said:
The question up for discussion today: Should the United States end its alliance with Turkey?
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It would be kinda weird and probably absolutely unprecedented for us to destroy and obliterate an ally's economy.
So maybe we should stop being their ally before we destroy and obliterate their economy.

If we're just gonna bluster, fuss, and send strongly worded letters, we might as well continue being their ally.
 
Simon W. Moon said:
It would be kinda weird and probably absolutely unprecedented for us to destroy and obliterate an ally's economy.
So maybe we should stop being their ally before we destroy and obliterate their economy.

If we're just gonna bluster, fuss, and send strongly worded letters, we might as well continue being their ally.
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Well, I was not asking whether we should in any way take an action against Turkey to punish them, Simon W. Moon. Only whether or not we should remain their ally in the first place. I tried to make that clear in my opening post:

Felis Leo said:
What I am NOT asking:

1. I am not asking whether or not we should sanction or punish Turkey over the nation's variegated actual or alleged bad acts.
2. I am not asking whether or not we should aid Turkey's enemies against Turkey, or get into a direct military confrontation with Turkey.
3. I am not asking whether or not we should re-examine our alliance with any other countries other than Turkey. I do not want this to devolve into a "whataboutism" debate about our alliances with other countries which have governments that have done horrible things, or have been accused of doing so, though you can certainly bring it up if the principles which inform your choice are relevant to the discussion.

If you answer "Other," please tell us what you think the other alternative would be.
Click to expand...
 
Phys251 said:
The Trump supporters are deliberately conflating the need not to invade another Middle Eastern country with the need to protect our allies and prevent a literal genocide.

Some wars are worth fighting, because there can be even more hellish things than war.
Click to expand...

Noam Chomsky said the American presence in Northern Syria was one of the exceptions to the rule, regarding U.S. involvement abroad. We were there as a deterrent to Turkish violence against our top ally in Syria. One of the only legitimate purposes we had for having a presence abroad and we pulled out. While simultaneously sending more troops to Saudi Arabia.

Trump logic is exhausting and backwards.
 
Felis Leo said:
Well, I was not asking whether we should in any way take an action against Turkey to punish them, Simon W. Moon. Just whether or not we should remain their ally in the first place. I tried to make that clear in my opening post:
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I didn't say whether we should punish them.

I just said that our decision about staying their ally depends on whether or not we decide to punish them.
 
Winston said:
Noam Chomsky said the American presence in Northern Syria was one of the exceptions to the rule, regarding U.S. involvement abroad. We were there as a deterrent to Turkish violence against our top ally in Syria. One of the only legitimate purposes we had for having a presence abroad and we pulled out. While simultaneously sending more troops to Saudi Arabia.

Trump logic is exhausting and backwards.
Click to expand...

Foreign policy never, ever has a one-size-fits-all strategy.

Abstaining from all conflict is never the answer.
Entering any possible conflict is never the answer.

Every situation must be judged on its own merits with all the information available.
 
Turkey is a member of NATO so ending the relationship with Turkey would mean withdrawing from NATO...never happen. If Turkey get attacked the US in compliance with the NATO charter would have to come to Turkey's defense. The Kurd have attacked Turkey and we have done nothing. So we and other members of NATO are not in compliance.
 
Simon W. Moon said:
I didn't say whether we should punish them.

I just said that our decision about staying their ally depends on whether or not we decide to punish them.
Click to expand...

Who is more of our ally...Turkey who along with the US are NATO member allies or the Kurds who have invaded and attacked Turkey?
 
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