View Poll Results: Is opposition to staying in a war being a traitor abandoning allies?

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  • Yes, opposing staying in the Vietnam and Syria wars was traitorously abandoning allies

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  • No, opposing staying in the Vietnam and Syria wars was NOT traitorously abandoning allies

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Thread: Is opposition to staying in a war being a traitor abandoning allies?

  1. #61
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    Re: Is opposition to staying in a war being a traitor abandoning allies?

    Quote Originally Posted by ataraxia View Post
    Probably true. But it’s still better than giving up on ideals and giving up on trying. Not giving up was how we went from a tyrannical monarchy to the democracy we have today. Not giving up and trying to live up to the words and ideals already written in the constitution was how we gave voting rights to women and civil rights for African-Americans.

    But I see it like the stock market. There are constant ups and downs, with occasional severe recessions and even great depressions. But over the long term, we have to keep working to keep the trend going in the right direction. You just don’t give up.

    Right now we are just in a severe recession of values. Hopefully soon we will come out of it, like we have out of every recession.

    “The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice".
    -Martin Luther King Jr
    Very nice on paper.

    This nation was founded on booze. No if's or but's about it. King George, desperately low on funds, thanks to his European wars, decided to milk the colonies, his property subject to the crown. He instituted a tariff on molasses from Jamaica. Molasses is made from sugar cane, not grown in the colonies. Molasses is the necessary ingredient for making rum, more valuable than gold, and was the largest industry in the New England colonies. The source of "No taxation without representation." Greed was the underlying principle sparking the revolution. Everything else was afterthoughts.

    This nation was built on the back of prostitution. Every port city was had major thorofares lined with bordellos. To service both the sailors, and the men who came here without women. As the nation moved west, the first pioneers traveled and set up trading camps without women. Prostitutes were quick to follow. Prostitutes tamed the west, and many of those prostitutes married and became the town and small city matrons who built the churches and schools for their children.

    This nation was built on greed, stealing land from the indigenous peoples, under the auspices of politicians who profited at every move west.

    Morals, principles, ideals are always a convenience, subject to popularity and all too often vicious religious argument for decency. People still murder, torture, steal, cheat, lie, trade in human flesh, use booze and drugs as excuses for abusive behavior, abuse of others and themselves. And we use lies and subterfuges to send young men to war.

    Yes, not all people are evil or purposefully act with evil in their hearts. We have witnessed progress for civil rights, after long still ongoing battles. And there is always hope for the basic good in all people. However, we are frail beings with many faults, and we cannot deny those faults with pretense that ideals conquer all evil. Such is not true life.

    I don't say any of this to defend Trump or anyone else. It is merely an honest appraisal and nothing more. I would prefer to be wrong, but I've personally witnessed too much for that possibility.

    When it comes to politics there are no innocents. It is part of the human condition to be self serving, and politics exacerbates self serving beyond the norm (whatever the norm may be), while lying to hide that motivation.

    Trump promised chaos for the status quo. He has delivered in spades. Unfortunately, no one was taken advantage of the chaos to deliver anything resembling a better path. Just more of the same old empty promises that are counter to the greed that made this nation great. More archaic socialist failed precepts, demonization of wealth, methodology for sucking dry motivations to excel, and a layer of guilt for having what others do not, all from people of wealth who claim to know what is better for everyone else.

    After destroying his competitors by whatever means he deemed necessary, Andrew Carnegie became a philanthropist. Trying to buy his way into heaven after committing every sin known to man.

    The much cited Gates Foundation, after protecting the mass of the Gates fortune from thieving politicians, in the name of philanthropy has not been able to spend more than 50% of its annual earnings from investments.

    Morals, ideals, principles, convenience.
    What kind of a man is a man who has not left this world a better place?

    No one is in control.

  2. #62
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    Re: Is opposition to staying in a war being a traitor abandoning allies?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Very nice on paper.

    This nation was founded on booze. No if's or but's about it. King George, desperately low on funds, thanks to his European wars, decided to milk the colonies, his property subject to the crown. He instituted a tariff on molasses from Jamaica. Molasses is made from sugar cane, not grown in the colonies. Molasses is the necessary ingredient for making rum, more valuable than gold, and was the largest industry in the New England colonies. The source of "No taxation without representation." Greed was the underlying principle sparking the revolution. Everything else was afterthoughts.

    This nation was built on the back of prostitution. Every port city was had major thorofares lined with bordellos. To service both the sailors, and the men who came here without women. As the nation moved west, the first pioneers traveled and set up trading camps without women. Prostitutes were quick to follow. Prostitutes tamed the west, and many of those prostitutes married and became the town and small city matrons who built the churches and schools for their children.

    This nation was built on greed, stealing land from the indigenous peoples, under the auspices of politicians who profited at every move west.

    Morals, principles, ideals are always a convenience, subject to popularity and all too often vicious religious argument for decency. People still murder, torture, steal, cheat, lie, trade in human flesh, use booze and drugs as excuses for abusive behavior, abuse of others and themselves. And we use lies and subterfuges to send young men to war.

    Yes, not all people are evil or purposefully act with evil in their hearts. We have witnessed progress for civil rights, after long still ongoing battles. And there is always hope for the basic good in all people. However, we are frail beings with many faults, and we cannot deny those faults with pretense that ideals conquer all evil. Such is not true life.

    I don't say any of this to defend Trump or anyone else. It is merely an honest appraisal and nothing more. I would prefer to be wrong, but I've personally witnessed too much for that possibility.

    When it comes to politics there are no innocents. It is part of the human condition to be self serving, and politics exacerbates self serving beyond the norm (whatever the norm may be), while lying to hide that motivation.

    Trump promised chaos for the status quo. He has delivered in spades. Unfortunately, no one was taken advantage of the chaos to deliver anything resembling a better path. Just more of the same old empty promises that are counter to the greed that made this nation great. More archaic socialist failed precepts, demonization of wealth, methodology for sucking dry motivations to excel, and a layer of guilt for having what others do not, all from people of wealth who claim to know what is better for everyone else.

    After destroying his competitors by whatever means he deemed necessary, Andrew Carnegie became a philanthropist. Trying to buy his way into heaven after committing every sin known to man.

    The much cited Gates Foundation, after protecting the mass of the Gates fortune from thieving politicians, in the name of philanthropy has not been able to spend more than 50% of its annual earnings from investments.

    Morals, ideals, principles, convenience.
    Morality/principles/ideals/justice are indeed very convenient. They are a pragmatic and practical affair- just for the long term, not the short. There is nothing too highfalutin or otherworldly about them. Beliefs and actions don't just happen in an otherworldly vacuum- they have very real this-worldly consequences, eventually. People eventually come back to such ideals after everything else has failed and they find themselves in a complete mess. I see morality as nothing more than just pragmatic prudence and wisdom.

    We humans are indeed a pretty sorry lot. But sometimes, if we try, we may surprise even ourselves. There are better and worse ways of doing things. You don't just shrug and give up as "just the way it is".

    "Throughout history, it has been the inaction of those who could have acted; the indifference of those who should have known better; the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most; that has made it possible for evil to triumph."
    -Haile Selassie
    Last edited by ataraxia; 10-20-19 at 07:08 PM.

  3. #63
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    Re: Is opposition to staying in a war being a traitor abandoning allies?

    Quote Originally Posted by ataraxia View Post
    Morality/principles/ideals/justice are indeed very convenient. They are a pragmatic and practical affair- just for the long term, not the short. There is nothing too highfalutin or otherworldly about them. Beliefs and actions don't just happen in an otherworldly vacuum- they have very real this-worldly consequences, eventually. People eventually come back to such ideals after everything else has failed and they find themselves in a complete mess. I see morality as nothing more than just pragmatic prudence and wisdom.

    We humans are indeed a pretty sorry lot. But sometimes, if we try, we may surprise even ourselves. There are better and worse ways of doing things. You don't just shrug and give up as "just the way it is".

    "Throughout history, it has been the inaction of those who could have acted; the indifference of those who should have known better; the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most; that has made it possible for evil to triumph."
    -Haile Selassie
    When the next call for war rises, answer with your morals. The point of all morals, principles, ideals being convenient, is until they are not convenient.
    What kind of a man is a man who has not left this world a better place?

    No one is in control.

  4. #64
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    Re: Is opposition to staying in a war being a traitor abandoning allies?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    When the next call for war rises, answer with your morals. The point of all morals, principles, ideals being convenient, is until they are not convenient.
    I hate war. But sometimes it’s necessary. That does not mean should not have morals or ideals. It just means you have to juggle among competing ones for optimal results. That’s just life.

    For example, everyone will agree that being honest is a worthwhile ideal. But sometimes you have to exercise tact. You want to spend time with your family, but you also want to advance professionally in your work. You want to do work that pays well, but also one that you love. So you juggle and compromise among these often competing and ultimately not fully reconcilable ideals. You may never be able to reach a perfect solution, but there are always better and worse ways of going about it. The ideals can serve as your compass. You have to exercise judgment. You have to study the issue carefully. But it’s a matter of juggling and painful compromising between ideals, not just shrugging them off and getting rid of them altogether.

    “Ideals are like the stars at night to the sailors. They may never get there, but they are what guide their ships in the dark.”
    -Woodrow Wilson

    ”True pluralism... is much more tough-minded and intellectually bold: it rejects the view that all conflicts of values can be finally resolved by a neat and tidy synthesis, and by which all desirable goals may be reconciled. It recognises that human nature generates values which, though equally sacred, equally ultimate, exclude one another, without there being any possibility of establishing an objective hierarchical relation or resolution among them. Moral conduct may therefore involve making agonising choices, without the help of universal criteria, between frequently irreconcilable, but equally desirable, values.”
    -Isaiah Berlin
    Last edited by ataraxia; 10-20-19 at 09:12 PM.

  5. #65
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    Re: Is opposition to staying in a war being a traitor abandoning allies?

    Quote Originally Posted by ataraxia View Post
    I hate war. But sometimes it’s necessary. That does not mean should not have morals or ideals. It just means you have to juggle among competing ones for optimal results. That’s just life.

    For example, everyone will agree that being honest is a worthwhile ideal. But sometimes you have to exercise tact. You want to spend time with your family, but you also want to advance professionally in your work. You want to do work that pays well, but also one that you love. So you juggle and compromise among these often competing and ultimately not fully reconcilable ideals. You may never be able to reach a perfect solution, but there are always better and worse ways of going about it. The ideals can serve as your compass. You have to exercise judgment. You have to study the issue carefully. But it’s a matter of juggling and painful compromising between ideals, not just shrugging them off and getting rid of them altogether.

    “Ideals are like the stars at night to the sailors. They may never get there, but they are what guide their ships in the dark.”
    -Woodrow Wilson

    ”True pluralism... is much more tough-minded and intellectually bold: it rejects the view that all conflicts of values can be finally resolved by a neat and tidy synthesis, and by which all desirable goals may be reconciled. It recognises that human nature generates values which, though equally sacred, equally ultimate, exclude one another, without there being any possibility of establishing an objective hierarchical relation or resolution among them. Moral conduct may therefore involve making agonising choices, without the help of universal criteria, between frequently irreconcilable, but equally desirable, values.”
    -Isaiah Berlin
    Ah yes, compromise, the inevitable vulnerability excuse.
    What kind of a man is a man who has not left this world a better place?

    No one is in control.

  6. #66
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    Re: Is opposition to staying in a war being a traitor abandoning allies?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrWonka View Post
    Unit you've stabilized the region like it was prior to all this bull**** that America basically started so that the Kurds can defend themselves and the ISIS prisoners that have been captured and imprisoned in that area are not a threat to escape.
    With as much respect as I can muster here, the Ottoman Empire collapsed in 1918. It collapsed due to a war that they lost.

    When did they stop teaching history in our schools?
    Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, ...every date has been altered. And that process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right. -George Orwell

  7. #67
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    Re: Is opposition to staying in a war being a traitor abandoning allies?

    Quote Originally Posted by BahamaBob View Post
    So you assume that a few dozen guys will deter Trukey? Pretty stupid assumption.
    The sad reality is that as long as the are American soldiers they absolutely will. Not with physical fighting, but because they are American Soldiers the American people will freak the **** out if Turkey murders them. The aver American walking down the street doesn't give a flying **** about the life of a kurd, but if Turkey bombed a base stationed with U.S. Soldiers all the **** heads who voted for Donald Trump would suddenly give a **** about human lives again and demand we level Istanbul as a response.

    So yeah, it's a very good assumption. Turkey isn't suicidal. They know the repercussions of intentionally attacking U.S. Soldiers. That was the whole point Mitt Romney was trying to make. What it sounded like to him is that Turkey bluffed and said they were coming through the area anyway. They told Trump you might as well get you guys out of our way so we don't hurt any of them. Trump being a moron believed them and voluntarily moved the Troops figuring (just like you) that those 50 guys wouldn't do any good.

    That makes this whole thing even worse because it demonstrates how horrible our president is at poker.
    Obstruction of Justice also applies to overt coercion of court or government officials via the means of threats or actual physical harm and also applying to deliberate sedition against a court official to undermine the appearance of legitimate authority.

  8. #68
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    Re: Is opposition to staying in a war being a traitor abandoning allies?

    Quote Originally Posted by code1211 View Post
    With as much respect as I can muster here, the Ottoman Empire collapsed in 1918. It collapsed due to a war that they lost.

    When did they stop teaching history in our schools?
    WTF are you talking about? We're discussing modern day Syria, Iraq and Iran. The area that the Kurds occupy used to be stabilized by a combination of those three countries. They all kept turkey at bay. But with Iraq going to ****, and now Syria falling a part that left the area vulnerable.

    The Lions share of that destabilization in the region rests squarely on the shoulder's of a guy named George W. Bush. The last dip **** Republican we let run our military.
    Obstruction of Justice also applies to overt coercion of court or government officials via the means of threats or actual physical harm and also applying to deliberate sedition against a court official to undermine the appearance of legitimate authority.

  9. #69
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    Re: Is opposition to staying in a war being a traitor abandoning allies?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Ah yes, compromise, the inevitable vulnerability excuse.
    It's the tragic nature of the world. It is what it is. But having to juggle and compromise among various ideals should not be a license to dispense with them altogether. In fact, it's often what keeps us from sinking into closed minded and unthinking radicalism and fanaticism.

    "The notion of the perfect whole, the ultimate solution in which all good things coexist, seems to me not merely unobtainable--that is a truism--but conceptually incoherent.Some among the great goods cannot live together. That is a conceptual truth. We are doomed to choose, and every choice may entail an irreparable loss... If you are truly convinced that there is some single solution to all human problems, that one can conceive an ideal society which men can reach if only they do what is necessary to attain it, then you and your followers must believe that no price can be too high to pay in order to open the gates of such a paradise. Only the stupid and malevolent will resist once certain simple truths are put to them. Those who resist must be persuaded; if they cannot be persuaded, laws must be passed to restrain them; if that does not work, then coercion, if need be violence, will inevitably have to be used—if necessary, terror, slaughter.”
    ― Isaiah Berlin”

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    Re: Is opposition to staying in a war being a traitor abandoning allies?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Syria and the Kurds have never been allies, but Turkey IS.
    Should tell that to 2018 Trump, lol

    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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