Do your support going to war with Turkey over Syria?

Firstly, Turkey is part of NATO which kinda takes war with Turkey off the table already.

Secondly, it's probably time to ask ourselves whether it's worth it to wage war in the middle east, especially considering that it's what led to the violence in the region in the first place.

joko104 said:

We had no victory and leaving plan when we defeated Iraq - and are still there.
We had no victory plan when we took over Afghanistan - and are still there.
We had no victory plan when we went to war in Syria - and we are still there.

What is your victory plan when we defeat Turkey and face a perpetual insurgency there too?

If you want us to be at military war with Turkey in Syria, what is your plan when we win? Go to war against Egypt? Libya? Yemen? - while perpetually militarily occupying Turkey fighting insurgent Turks in their own country?

Or do you want this to be a perpetual proxy war in Syria, where the Turks have safe home base in Turkey by our not attacking Turkey?

Do you REALLY love the Vietnam War, Korean War, Iraq Wars (2), and Afghanistan War SO that much you want to do it in Syria for the next century with Turkey?

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Going to war with Turkey? What idiot would even contemplate any such notion. Someone stupid enough to suggest such
nonsense must have been a student of the 'John McCain Institute of Military Studies'. If MCain were alive today he'd be
clamoring for such an an invasion.

Turkey is harboring 2.5 million displaced persons as a favor to Europe who doesn't want them.
I also think Turkey along with Britain are the most powerfull military powers in Nato. Laughable notion.

Short answer; we can't fix the Middle East. Even they can't fix the Middle East. It has been a long standing war zone and will continue to be a war zone.

At one time in this country only white men of property could vote. If that had become ingrained we wouldn't have grown into a democracy, we would have been ruled by an oligarchy. But over the past couple centuries we learned to expand the definition of democracy to be as inclusive as possible. When an Iraqi Shiite speaks of favoring democracy he/she means democracy within the Shiite community. When a Sunni speaks of democracy he/she means for Sunni's only. So democracy means different things to different people's. Even when a Kurd speaks of democracy he/she means democracy for only his/her faction within the Kurdish territory.

In the modern world only inclusive democracy can lead to lasting peace. China's Communist government must be ever alert to rebellion. Same for any dictatorship. Democracy ain't always pretty but it works.

We're great at military intervention. But we are very bad at nation building, with the exceptions of Japan and Germany. We showed them the way. But first we had to burn down Germany and nuke Japan. I doubt the public would stand for that again.

So until the people of the Middle East adopt a modern inclusive attitude toward democracy on their own, if they ever can, their region will continue to be a hell hole. And we can't fix that.

PS. I just hope their version of democracy doesn't gain a foothold in the West.

Phys251 said:

Clearly you do not understand. You do not value the lives of the Kurds.

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So you care more about Kurdish lives than American ones? Wow... pretty sad you don't value American lives but instead prefer they lay down their lives in the sands of the ME

No more illegal Bush/Obama wars

-VySky

Hard no. I'm not in favor of a total isolationist foreign policy, but I'm definitely for picking our battles and only intervening when our interests are directly threatened, or when a situation threatens to spiral out of control in to a much larger conflict and it's clear that our involvement would help defuse the situation.

VySky said:

So you care more about Kurdish lives than American ones?

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Why do you like to lie?

Wow... pretty sad you don't value American lives but instead prefer they lay down their lives in the sands of the ME

No more illegal Bush/Obama wars

-VySky

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Why are you OK with the Kurds being slaughtered?

VySky said:

So you care more about Kurdish lives than American ones? Wow... pretty sad you don't value American lives but instead prefer they lay down their lives in the sands of the ME

No more illegal Bush/Obama wars

-VySky

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Summary of your message: To hell with the 2 million Syrian refugees and screw our NATO ally, Turkey. You support Kurdis insurgent terrorists and demand our military give them a safe have in Syria to engage in acts of terrorist in Turkey in their goal of creating a ethnically pure Kurdish country.

I don't think hatred of Trump so therefore oppose him on everything gets any more sadistic that than hope.

Rogue Valley said:

Erdogan certainly has an ethnic-cleansing agenda and Donald Trump is allowing him to fulfill two goals with one invasion.

1) Erdogan intends to kill/remove all 2 million Kurds (whom he detests) from a "buffer zone" up to 30 miles deep into Syria. This "buffer zone" is known as Rojava, the northern homeland of Kurds in Syria

2) Once the buffer (Rojava) is empty of Kurds, Erdogan will resettle there the 3.8 million Syrian Arab refugees currently living in Turkey.

Transferring populations is the very definition of ethnic cleansing. Remember, these Kurds have fought ISIS for the US on the ground in Syria since January, 2015. ~11,000 died.

Last year Erdogan invaded Afrin (Efrin) Canton in Western Rojava. 300,000 Kurdish men, women, and children were displaced.

SoD James Mattis placed a US military blocking force at Manbij to prevent the Turks from going any further eastward.

Trump has now removed this US blocking force of about ~1,000 in Manbij and nearby towns. The very definition of betrayal.

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I stated that I don't know that Erdogan might not have some darker ambitions. Still, are you of the opinion that the Kurds, or at least the terrorists among them, are guiltless in all this?

Isn't it possible that the Syrian Kurds are being so helpful with our ISIS problem because they want to (1) continue terrorist attacks in Turkey, while (2) being shielded from the consequences by their American allies?

Ouroboros said:

I stated that I don't know that Erdogan might not have some darker ambitions. Still, are you of the opinion that the Kurds, or at least the terrorists among them, are guiltless in all this?

Isn't it possible that the Syrian Kurds are being so helpful with our ISIS problem because they want to (1) continue terrorist attacks in Turkey, while (2) being shielded from the consequences by their American allies?

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You are conflating the Syrian YPG/YPJ Kurd militias with the Turkish PKK Kurds. Perhaps if the Turks stopped persecuting their Kurds the situation would improve.

Turkish military forces quite often raid Kurdish villages in eastern Turkey and imitate the Russians in Chechnya. I'll let you figure that out.

Rogue Valley said:

You are conflating the Syrian YPG/YPJ Kurd militias with the Turkish PKK Kurds. Perhaps if the Turks stopped persecuting their Kurds the situation would improve.

Turkish military forces quite often raid Kurdish villages in eastern Turkey and imitate the Russians in Chechnya. I'll let you figure that out.

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I'm aware of the alleged distinction. However, if the PKK is doing the will of the people behind the YPG, then that distinction is a false one.

It certainly wouldn't be the first time that a terrorist group acted with the tacit approval of the local government.

This doesn't mean I think Turkey's hands are clean, as I've already stated. But I'm a little sick of the idea that the Kurds are these noble allies being betrayed by Trump, when in truth they may not be quite so spotless.

Ouroboros said:

I'm aware of the alleged distinction. However, if the PKK is doing the will of the people behind the YPG, then that distinction is a false one.

It certainly wouldn't be the first time that a terrorist group acted with the tacit approval of the local government.

This doesn't mean I think Turkey's hands are clean, as I've already stated. But I'm a little sick of the idea that the Kurds are these noble allies being betrayed by Trump, when in truth they may not be quite so spotless.

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That there is a high level of ties between the PKK in Turkey and the YPG in Rojava cannot be denied. They should however not be confused, especially in their activities and what (where) those are aimed at.

To the best of my knowledge there's not been a YPG attack on Turkey from Rojava, until, that is, today. When YPG returned artillery fire across the border into Turkish towns.

Beyond all of which, in conflicts like these nobody retains clean hands for very long.

Nothing is as simple as a poll.

Assad's regime in Syria is propped up by Russia largely to have access to oil.

Syria was in the middle of s civil war because of Asaad's dictatorship and penchant for gassing his own people.

The revolution side of the conflict has many factions and soldiers from other ME nations. The Kurds were among the larger factions.

The Kurds have been our allies (for whatever motivations, usually just to have a piece of desert and rock to call home) and have fought with and for us in many fronts, notably in Syria and even more so in Afghanistan and Iraq.

The Kurds are an ethnic group that no one wants and if they had choice would have killed them off like Turkey is doing right now. Don't forget, after the Gulf War, we allowed Hussein to kill them in a genocidal purge. Like we are now with Turkey.

No one really liked ISIS holding Syrian territory, so everyone could agree on that at least...and they let the Kurds do the heavy work on that one. We are now seeing a resurgence of ISIS now that their main adversary is being destroyed by Turkey.

Turkey wants the land the Kurds are sitting on, but technically, that's Syria...so Turkey's really invading Syria. That means a lot of bad things. First, it means that Syria, like the Kurds, have to withdraw from their fight with ISIS. Second, it means that possibly Russia could be sending in troops up against....a NATO nation which is Turkey.

We are bound by treaty to help defend our NATO allies. That means we have to support Turkey, who is killing off our allies of many wars the Kurds, to defend against Russia who supports Assad who has chemicals weapons and uses them on his own people while ISIS regains power because the one force that was taking them on (the Kurds) are out of play and they are free to reform their caliphate.

And all we had to do...all we had to do...all we had to do to keep all of this from happening...was to maintain a military presence, a trip-wire force at most. That's it. That's all we had to do. No shock and awe, no huge military build up...just a presence.

But noooooo...President $hithead had to go and $%ck it all up because of his damn ego and willingness to please bullies and dictators...

cabse5 said:

I'm still trying to figure out why Turkey is attacking northern Syria and that Syria seems to be allowing it to happen.

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Because Turkey hates the Kurds, and because Erdogan is seeing his popularity slip in Turkey and needs some nationalistic nonsense to boost that, so killing people is the answer.

Let's not jump down any more rabbit holes.

Frigidweirdo said:

Because Turkey hates the Kurds, and because Erdogan is seeing his popularity slip in Turkey and needs some nationalistic nonsense to boost that, so killing people is the answer.

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Not that the Kurds are terrorists of Turkey?:roll:

cabse5 said:

Not that the Kurds are terrorists of Turkey?:roll:

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That's the point I was seeking to make. I'm not an apologist for Erdogan, but I feel like there's got to be some pressure on him to take this step. I've cited one source that claims he's under a lot of pressure because of the Syrian refugees in his country. Maybe, if Kurdish terrorists are indeed harassing Turkey with the long-range goal of gaining concessions in the event of a Kurdish state, he may think he can solve both problems by killing/crowding out the Kurds and propelling the refugees back into their own country.

The other day Rand Paul came on THE VIEW to defend Trump's withdrawal decision. I know little about the Kentucky congressman, and probably some here hate his guts. But I have to say that he defended himself ably against the VIEW-shrews. Whoopi tried to force him into a strict either-or with respect to the rightness or wrongness of deserting one's allies, and though Paul didn't have time to articulate very much of his position, he made the salient point that we've had soldiers stationed there for 19 years and that it isn't our responsibility to ride herd on local affairs indefinitely. Anna Navarro attacked him for his opinions on Socialism, which had more to do with his new book than with Syria, and she was almost incoherent while he remained calm and collected. Paul didn't go into the history of the Kurds and Syria but I think he meant to say something akin to Trump's rather confused statement, that it's not our business to sort out who gets what land in the Middle East.

cabse5 said:

Not that the Kurds are terrorists of Turkey?:roll:

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One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Ouroboros said:

The other day Rand Paul came on THE VIEW to defend Trump's withdrawal decision. I know little about the Kentucky congressman, and probably some here hate his guts.

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Now that California Rep. Dana Rohrabacher was defeated in 2018, Rand Paul is the Kremlin's favorite US Congressman.

He visits Moscow often as a courier between Trump and Putin.

Trump just allowed the slaughter of Kurdish men, women and children and tough Trump supporters are laying on their couches and starting threads in support of his latest dumb move.

Good luck at the Pearly Gates.

Frigidweirdo said:

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

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And the Kurds are Turkey's terrorists.

Rogue Valley said:

Now that California Rep. Dana Rohrabacher was defeated in 2018, Rand Paul is the Kremlin's favorite US Congressman.

He visits Moscow often as a courier between Trump and Putin.

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I don't know who's more apt to smooch Russia's ass. The dems, er, Hillary's campaign, sure accessed some Russian input (and so did C. Steele). The Hillary campaign contacted the Ukraine before the 2016 election to dig up dirt on Manafort while Manafort was associated with the Ukraine.

cabse5 said:

And the Kurds are Turkey's terrorists.

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And the Kurds are the Kurds' freedom fighters.

Is there any point to your posts?

joko104 said:

The warhawks on both sides and in the corporate media for going to war with Turkey over Syria and the Kurds. I can not recall any potential war anywhere in the world that the warhawk have not insisted we must be in - and must be in forever.

The Kurds did not fight for us. They fought for themselves and we provided weapons, troops and support for our own goals.

I oppose the US leaving American troops in Syria forever, just like I oppose us keeping troops in S. Korea forever, Iraq forever, and Afghanistan forever. I oppose the assumed truism that the United States is the police force of the world - for which for the first time in the entire history of nations we will endlessly sacrifice American lives, endlessly kill in war, and endlessly spend money on wars for the purpose of assuring no national borders on earth are every changed again - throwing our military into combat to protect everyone's border - but our own.

You?

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Do you support allowing men and women that fought and died along side our own soldiers in Iraq and Syria to be slaughtered, is Honor in your vocabulary?

Frigidweirdo said:

And the Kurds are the Kurds' freedom fighters.

Is there any point to your posts?

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Sure. The land the Kurds are trying to claim currently belongs to both Syria and Turkey.

Casper said:

Do you support allowing men and women that fought and died along side our own soldiers in Iraq and Syria to be slaughtered, is Honor in your vocabulary?

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Better they get slaughtered than US military. One hundred years from now the land will be still be contested. The US could break up another country forcefully holding together a myriad of tribes who wish to be independent like we did in Iraq...You want another Iraq? You want US military in both Syria and Turkey for 18 years? Fighting Syria? Fighting Russia? Fighting Iran? Fighting Turkey?...And fighting their allies?