View Poll Results: If the cost of cancer treatment goes up significantly, which of the following results?

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  • Less people get cancer - supply and demand.

    0 0%
  • More people get cancer.

    1 3.23%
  • The cost of cancer treatment has nothing at all to do with the number of people with cancer.

    30 96.77%
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Thread: Necessary Healthcare - Supply and Demand

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    Re: Necessary Healthcare - Supply and Demand

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    It's more that you're claiming that by getting people past the poverty line, these issues will somehow magically be resolved with the addition of purchasing power when the problems described have nothing to do with a lack of raw purchasing power in the first place, other than in the regard that the poor (and often the middle class) can't afford healthcare without incurring bankruptcy.
    You don't know that without crunching the numbers. Simply increasing market participation can lower costs.

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    Re: Necessary Healthcare - Supply and Demand

    Quote Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
    You don't know that without crunching the numbers. Simply increasing market participation can lower costs.
    That 'can' seems pretty operative. And if it does lower costs, will it do so by about to 50% to be on par with the rest of the developed world? It sure as hell doesn't resolve the other issues I mentioned: purchasing power is not getting rid of the perverse incentives, the information asymmetry or the fundamentally exploitable nature of for profit healthcare, nor the ethical issues of directly tying one's ability to live with the contents of their wallet.

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
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    Re: Necessary Healthcare - Supply and Demand

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    If the price of houses go up too much, then less people buy a home and instead opt to live with their parents longer, share rent with someone and so on. If the price of a new car goes up too much, then less people buy a new car, and instead will continue to drive older ones, share a car and so on. If the price of a new TV goes up too much, you don't buy one, or you buy less of them. That is how it works with most goods and services.

    With that in mind, is there any relationship at all between the cost of cancer treatment and the number of people afflicted with cancer? Is there any relationship at all with the cost of a heart bypass, and the number of people with a coronary blockage? Is there any relationship between the cost of insulin, and the number of diabetics?
    There is a relationship between cost and the number of people who get the treatment they need, but not how many develop it. And by extension there are fewer people who get properly diagnosed so that could mislead people into believing people don't have it.
    O

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    Re: Necessary Healthcare - Supply and Demand

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    That 'can' seems pretty operative. And if it does lower costs, will it do so by about to 50% to be on par with the rest of the developed world? It sure as hell doesn't resolve the other issues I mentioned: purchasing power is not getting rid of the perverse incentives, the information asymmetry or the fundamentally exploitable nature of for profit healthcare, nor the ethical issues of directly tying one's ability to live with the contents of their wallet.

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
    Or a better understanding of economics.

    Here is a simple math illustration.

    Let's say an insurance firm needs a certain amount of revenue to remain profitable.

    how much can that insurance firm charge a less amount of customers versus a greater amount of customers?

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    Re: Necessary Healthcare - Supply and Demand

    Quote Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
    Or a better understanding of economics.

    Here is a simple math illustration.

    Let's say an insurance firm needs a certain amount of revenue to remain profitable.

    how much can that insurance firm charge a less amount of customers versus a greater amount of customers?
    I'm familiar with such things as volume/economy of scale and the tradeoff between sales and margin.

    But you're not going to get anywhere close to the cost savings present in other first world countries due to the major contributors of cost inefficiency remaining. Health insurance profit margins are currently averaging 4-5.25%, a few may be in the high single digits; that's not much room to be decremented by volume. Even if you were to argue about cascading savings from payers to providers to suppliers, the fact is that there isn't all that much room to move cost down via simple volume. It would be astonishing if you could manage 10% savings, nevermind 50%. A 'better understanding of economics' would conclude about as much.

    And again, this is only addressing the single issue and dimension of cost, nevermind the litany of other issues.
    "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." -Alberto Brandolini

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    Re: Necessary Healthcare - Supply and Demand

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    If the price of houses go up too much, then less people buy a home and instead opt to live with their parents longer, share rent with someone and so on. If the price of a new car goes up too much, then less people buy a new car, and instead will continue to drive older ones, share a car and so on. If the price of a new TV goes up too much, you don't buy one, or you buy less of them. That is how it works with most goods and services.

    With that in mind, is there any relationship at all between the cost of cancer treatment and the number of people afflicted with cancer? Is there any relationship at all with the cost of a heart bypass, and the number of people with a coronary blockage? Is there any relationship between the cost of insulin, and the number of diabetics?
    If the cost of cancer treatment goes up significantly more people will die of cancer, if they don't have insurance.

    Why markets can’t cure healthcare
    “Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” ― Voltaire

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    Re: Necessary Healthcare - Supply and Demand

    Quote Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
    If the cost of cancer treatment goes up significantly more people will die of cancer, if they don't have insurance.

    Why markets can’t cure healthcare
    Of course.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Necessary Healthcare - Supply and Demand

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    I'm familiar with such things as volume/economy of scale and the tradeoff between sales and margin.

    But you're not going to get anywhere close to the cost savings present in other first world countries due to the major contributors of cost inefficiency remaining. Health insurance profit margins are currently averaging 4-5.25%, a few may be in the high single digits; that's not much room to be decremented by volume. Even if you were to argue about cascading savings from payers to providers to suppliers, the fact is that there isn't all that much room to move cost down via simple volume. It would be astonishing if you could manage 10% savings, nevermind 50%. A 'better understanding of economics' would conclude about as much.

    And again, this is only addressing the single issue and dimension of cost, nevermind the litany of other issues.
    A positive multiplier effect must be a positive thing. Besides, we are discussing solving simple poverty along with a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage. There must be enough volume to make a difference.

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    Re: Necessary Healthcare - Supply and Demand

    Quote Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
    A positive multiplier effect must be a positive thing. Besides, we are discussing solving simple poverty along with a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage. There must be enough volume to make a difference.
    It might have a small positive effect, but your system is still fundamentally broken and vastly overcosted. The potential of volume to reduce costs is very limited.
    "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." -Alberto Brandolini

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    Re: Necessary Healthcare - Supply and Demand

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    It might have a small positive effect, but your system is still fundamentally broken and vastly overcosted. The potential of volume to reduce costs is very limited.
    Why do some allege, capitalism is more efficient. Why not ensure all markets are "single payer" to achieve similar results?

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