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American Health Care

Status quo or universal health care

  • Keep it like it is

    Votes: 5 27.8%

  • Universal health care

    Votes: 13 72.2%
  • Total voters
    18
  • Poll closed .
R

rickc

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In 2018 Americans spent $3.6 trillion on health care

In 2017 it was about $3.2 trillion

This year it will probably be a little more than last year

Universal Health Care (medicare for all or whatever) for America is estimated by many different entities to cost about the same as we are paying now. Maybe less if we negotiate drug prices and control the price of.procedures.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

Anyway we are spending the money now so why the big fear on what it cost. Those who stand to lose those profit centers are driving the fear.

Question is would you prefer our present system or move to a system more like canada and europe where there is no fear of.medical bankruptcy, refusal of health insurance, huge medical bills or spirialing insurance premiums.
 
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The poll, of course, assumes that M4A (or whatever) is the only alternative to keeping things as they are. Once you accept that (moronic?) premise then it is easy to make the choice of "keep it like it is" since that is the only alternative (offered by this poll) to have "M4A or whatever".

This seems to be a clear attempt to solicit the opposite default response - if one is not for "keep it like it is" then they must choose letting congress critters enact "M4A or whatever" instead.
 
rickc said:
In 2018 Americans spent $3.6 trillion on health care

In 2017 it was about $3.2 trillion

This year it will probably be a little more than last year

Universal Health Care (medicare for all or whatever) for America is estimated by many different entities to cost about the same as we are paying now. Maybe less if we negotiate drug prices and control the price of.procedures.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

Anyway we are spending the money now so why the big fear on what it cost. Those who stand to lose those profit centers are driving the fear.

Question is would you prefer our present system or move to a system more like canada and europe where there is no fear of.medical bankruptcy, refusal of health insurance, huge medical bills or spirialing insurance premiums.
Click to expand...


If the US went with universal care with single payer (at least at the state level) the biggest savings would come from

Administration - The massive jungle of paperwork trying to figure out how much is owed which insurance company or HMO or individuals is to be charged, how to collect the money, and what to do with those that can not pay add to a significant amount of money being spent on admin billing rather than actual health care.

The improved health care for under insured people will allow for a focus on preventative care rather than emergency care. A prime example would be diabetes care and management. With medical supervision it is easily controllable, without it, serious complications can result
 
rickc said:
In 2018 Americans spent $3.6 trillion on health care

In 2017 it was about $3.2 trillion

This year it will probably be a little more than last year

Universal Health Care (medicare for all or whatever) for America is estimated by many different entities to cost about the same as we are paying now. Maybe less if we negotiate drug prices and control the price of.procedures.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

Anyway we are spending the money now so why the big fear on what it cost. Those who stand to lose those profit centers are driving the fear.

Question is would you prefer our present system or move to a system more like canada and europe where there is no fear of.medical bankruptcy, refusal of health insurance, huge medical bills or spirialing insurance premiums.
Click to expand...

If I read the article correctly it says M4A will boost government spending by the amount you used. Not that the total cost will be that amount.

Further you make assumptions re: no bankruptcies etc. that are not valid under the current Medicare system. Lastly it seems this would be a materially bigger giveaway to corporations than the tax cuts that folks hate.

No doubt we need changes to the current system. Just as ACA was not the miracle cure neither is any new program. The devil is in the details. Without that making ten year projections is meaningless.
 
rickc said:
In 2018 Americans spent $3.6 trillion on health care

In 2017 it was about $3.2 trillion

This year it will probably be a little more than last year

Universal Health Care (medicare for all or whatever) for America is estimated by many different entities to cost about the same as we are paying now. Maybe less if we negotiate drug prices and control the price of.procedures.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

Anyway we are spending the money now so why the big fear on what it cost. Those who stand to lose those profit centers are driving the fear.

Question is would you prefer our present system or move to a system more like canada and europe where there is no fear of.medical bankruptcy, refusal of health insurance, huge medical bills or spirialing insurance premiums.
Click to expand...

Here we go again with the binary options. :roll:
 
washunut said:
If I read the article correctly it says M4A will boost government spending by the amount you used. Not that the total cost will be that amount.

Further you make assumptions re: no bankruptcies etc. that are not valid under the current Medicare system. Lastly it seems this would be a materially bigger giveaway to corporations than the tax cuts that folks hate.

No doubt we need changes to the current system. Just as ACA was not the miracle cure neither is any new program. The devil is in the details. Without that making ten year projections is meaningless.
Click to expand...

Well i never said medicare for all was the only choice. Lots of different sucessful models around the world.

Personally i think if our representatives were willing with all the different countries with universal health care we could.pick and choose the best.parts of all those sucessful models and come up with something fantastic.

Problem is in America big money will be dead set against it and big money owns our representatives
 
ttwtt78640 said:
The poll, of course, assumes that M4A (or whatever) is the only alternative to keeping things as they are. Once you accept that (moronic?) premise then it is easy to make the choice of "keep it like it is" since that is the only alternative (offered by this poll) to have "M4A or whatever".

This seems to be a clear attempt to solicit the opposite default response - if one is not for "keep it like it is" then they must choose letting congress critters enact "M4A or whatever" instead.
Click to expand...

Our health care system is broken. I've yet to hear the right solution. Or even a good one.

However, given the two options - I'd support m4a. If nothing else but if we are going to screw our country with healthcare it might as well not bankrupt the individuals.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
The poll, of course, assumes that M4A (or whatever) is the only alternative to keeping things as they are. Once you accept that (moronic?) premise then it is easy to make the choice of "keep it like it is" since that is the only alternative (offered by this poll) to have "M4A or whatever".

This seems to be a clear attempt to solicit the opposite default response - if one is not for "keep it like it is" then they must choose letting congress critters enact "M4A or whatever" instead.
Click to expand...

Our health care system is broken. I've yet to hear the right solution. Or even a good one.

However, given the two options - I'd support m4a. If nothing else but if we are going to screw our country with healthcare it might as well not bankrupt the individuals.
 
Kreton said:
Our health care system is broken. I've yet to hear the right solution. Or even a good one.

However, given the two options - I'd support m4a. If nothing else but if we are going to screw our country with healthcare it might as well not bankrupt the individuals.
Click to expand...

I'm reluctant to fall for the "it can't get any worse, so let the government take over 18% of GDP" plan - especially before seeing any specifics of the bill to do so.

H.R.676 - 115th Congress (2017-2018): Expanded & Improved Medicare For All Act | Congress.gov | Library of Congress
 
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rickc said:
In 2018 Americans spent $3.6 trillion on health care

In 2017 it was about $3.2 trillion

This year it will probably be a little more than last year

Universal Health Care (medicare for all or whatever) for America is estimated by many different entities to cost about the same as we are paying now. Maybe less if we negotiate drug prices and control the price of.procedures.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

Anyway we are spending the money now so why the big fear on what it cost. Those who stand to lose those profit centers are driving the fear.

Question is would you prefer our present system or move to a system more like canada and europe where there is no fear of.medical bankruptcy, refusal of health insurance, huge medical bills or spirialing insurance premiums.
Click to expand...

I didn't vote because there is no "other" option. There is a lot of choices in the zone between "keep as is" or "universal healthcare". Those are pretty fringe positions.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
If the US went with universal care with single payer (at least at the state level) the biggest savings would come from

Administration - The massive jungle of paperwork trying to figure out how much is owed which insurance company or HMO or individuals is to be charged, how to collect the money, and what to do with those that can not pay add to a significant amount of money being spent on admin billing rather than actual health care.

The improved health care for under insured people will allow for a focus on preventative care rather than emergency care. A prime example would be diabetes care and management. With medical supervision it is easily controllable, without it, serious complications can result
Click to expand...

Are you familiar with the periodic nightmare that was the VA Hospital system? Fully "single payer," for qualified vets, minor co-pay for others.

If you think "administration" shrinks under such a system, I'd say think again. Government creates "paper" and "paper-pushers" to administer it.

While it might be true the system would not have to deal with private insurers, I'd say replacement with all those various levels of government review/oversight/approval created by regulations will equal or exceed those problems. Especially when dealing on a national level with a larger patient care base.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Are you familiar with the periodic nightmare that was the VA Hospital system? Fully "single payer," for qualified vets, minor co-pay for others.

If you think "administration" shrinks under such a system, I'd say think again. Government creates "paper" and "paper-pushers" to administer it.

While it might be true the system would not have to deal with private insurers, I'd say replacement with all those various levels of government review/oversight/approval created by regulations will equal or exceed those problems. Especially when dealing on a national level with a larger patient care base.
Click to expand...

Medicare has lower administrative costs than most private insurers in the United States.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Are you familiar with the periodic nightmare that was the VA Hospital system? Fully "single payer," for qualified vets, minor co-pay for others.

If you think "administration" shrinks under such a system, I'd say think again. Government creates "paper" and "paper-pushers" to administer it.

While it might be true the system would not have to deal with private insurers, I'd say replacement with all those various levels of government review/oversight/approval created by regulations will equal or exceed those problems. Especially when dealing on a national level with a larger patient care base.
Click to expand...

It would have to be set up by skilled people. The Can system generally has less red tape and much less paper. It is administered on the provincial level rather than federal. More direct accountability that way.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
I'm reluctant to fall for the "it can't get any worse, so let the government take over 18% of GDP" plan - especially before seeing any specifics of the bill to do so.

H.R.676 - 115th Congress (2017-2018): Expanded & Improved Medicare For All Act | Congress.gov | Library of Congress
Click to expand...

750,000+ Americans go bankrupt due to medical bills each year. Something has to change. Families are being destroyed because people get sick. That isn't how we should treating members of our society when we have the means to fix it. Medical care for free is better than medical care destroying families.

In my opinion waiting until the perfect plan emerges is the wrong path. If anything I'd rather see free healthcare while we wait for the right answer than it to continue down the path it is on. We should be putting Americans first.
 
Kreton said:
750,000+ Americans go bankrupt due to medical bills each year. Something has to change. Families are being destroyed because people get sick. That isn't how we should treating members of our society when we have the means to fix it. Medical care for free is better than medical care destroying families.

In my opinion waiting until the perfect plan emerges is the wrong path. If anything I'd rather see free healthcare while we wait for the right answer than it to continue down the path it is on. We should be putting Americans first.
Click to expand...

Any state/city government is free to do that - simply increase taxation on those with "too much" and use that (endless?) flow of public funds to pay top notch medical care providers in that state/city who are no longer permitted to charge patients for care costs. Why do you suppose that is not being done in your state/city?
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Any state/city government is free to do that - simply increase taxation on those with "too much" and use that (endless?) flow of public funds to pay top notch medical care providers in that state/city who are no longer permitted to charge patients for care costs. Why do you suppose that is not being done in your state/city?
Click to expand...

Why do you suppose that is not being done in your state/city?

One of many reasons. All related to profits.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/static.theintercept.com/amp/medicare-for-all-healthcare-industry.html
 
rickc said:
Why do you suppose that is not being done in your state/city?

One of many reasons. All related to profits.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/static.theintercept.com/amp/medicare-for-all-healthcare-industry.html
Click to expand...

That is simply BS - many goods/services currently paid for with public funds are supplied by for-profit companies. Rest assured that road construction, grounds maintenance and trash/recyclable collection providers are earning some handsome profits from work being paid for by public entities.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Any state/city government is free to do that - simply increase taxation on those with "too much" and use that (endless?) flow of public funds to pay top notch medical care providers in that state/city who are no longer permitted to charge patients for care costs. Why do you suppose that is not being done in your state/city?
Click to expand...

It won't be done on a state level and I don't care if they raise taxes. Or divert money from other programs. People are more important than money.
 
Kreton said:
It won't be done on a state level and I don't care if they raise taxes. Or divert money from other programs. People are more important than money.
Click to expand...

That (bolded above) is wonderful, but hardly a majority opinion (since most are getting subsidies from their employers or government programs now) or it would be have been done long ago.

The biggest problem with M4A bills (e.g. HR 676) is that they are, in reality, Medicaid For All and eliminate any insurance premiums, deductibles or co-pays while mandating that all private medical care insurance be outlawed and that all 'participating' medical care providers be either public or non-profit.
 
rickc said:
In 2018 Americans spent $3.6 trillion on health care

In 2017 it was about $3.2 trillion

This year it will probably be a little more than last year

Universal Health Care (medicare for all or whatever) for America is estimated by many different entities to cost about the same as we are paying now. Maybe less if we negotiate drug prices and control the price of.procedures.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

Anyway we are spending the money now so why the big fear on what it cost. Those who stand to lose those profit centers are driving the fear.

Question is would you prefer our present system or move to a system more like canada and europe where there is no fear of.medical bankruptcy, refusal of health insurance, huge medical bills or spirialing insurance premiums.
Click to expand...

Stupid biased poll. Most everyone in the US doesn't like our healthcare system but that doesn't mean they want universal care. Your biased poll doesn't have a third choice of changing our system to something better that is not universal healthcare.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
The poll, of course, assumes that M4A (or whatever) is the only alternative to keeping things as they are. Once you accept that (moronic?) premise then it is easy to make the choice of "keep it like it is" since that is the only alternative (offered by this poll) to have "M4A or whatever".

This seems to be a clear attempt to solicit the opposite default response - if one is not for "keep it like it is" then they must choose letting congress critters enact "M4A or whatever" instead.
Click to expand...

Exactly.
 
Kreton said:
750,000+ Americans go bankrupt due to medical bills each year. Something has to change. Families are being destroyed because people get sick. That isn't how we should treating members of our society when we have the means to fix it. Medical care for free is better than medical care destroying families.

In my opinion waiting until the perfect plan emerges is the wrong path. If anything I'd rather see free healthcare while we wait for the right answer than it to continue down the path it is on. We should be putting Americans first.
Click to expand...

Trouble is, you go to MFA or whatever, that's where it will stay. No one, as they aren't now, will be working for a better system. Instead of completely wiping out what we have and changing everything, we should come up with the better plan first and not have to change it all over again.
 
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