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Is the state of cities like Chicago worse than the mass shootings at places like El Paso/

Which of these represents a larger gun problem.

  • Places like Chicago because it is a constant problem.

    Votes: 13 72.2%

  • Events like El Paso, Dayton, because they are hate crimes.

    Votes: 2 11.1%

  • Events like El Paso, Dayton, because the numbers are so large.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Places like Chicago because it seems to be ignored.

    Votes: 3 16.7%
  • Total voters
    18
I

Integrityrespec

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Chicago is worse.
El Paso is worse.
El Paso is worse because these are hate crimes.
Chicago is worse because it is constant.
 
Why do you even need to play them off against each other? There are some similarities where the same kind of solutions could work and there are some differences, where different solutions could work. You’re all ultimately part of the same nation facing these problems though so why not just work together in trying to address all of your problems together?
 
HonestJoe said:
Why do you even need to play them off against each other? There are some similarities where the same kind of solutions could work and there are some differences, where different solutions could work. You’re all ultimately part of the same nation facing these problems though so why not just work together in trying to address all of your problems together?
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Good answer. This is my point. We see these terrible mass shootings used for political points but we don't seem to see the same concern regarding the massive numbers of daily shootings that total such high casualty numbers in our cities on a daily/weekly basis.
 
Integrityrespec said:
Chicago is worse.
El Paso is worse.
El Paso is worse because these are hate crimes.
Chicago is worse because it is constant.
Click to expand...

Chicago gun violence is gang related, often other gang member getting shot, although there are innocents that get caught up in it, and its unfortunate for those that live in those areas that get caught up in it. Mass shootings are just completely random killings in seemingly innocuous places, which may make it worse

Integrityrespec said:
Good answer. This is my point. We see these terrible mass shootings used for political points but we don't seem to see the same concern regarding the massive numbers of daily shootings that total such high casualty numbers in our cities on a daily/weekly basis.
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This is nothing more than a defleciton. Talking about finding solutions to an undeniable problem of gun violence in this country is not playing politics. Nobody is buying that lame political BS deflection anymore. It's not playing politics to talk about a real problem, and especially after 2 events happen on the same day killing 29. And in a week there will probably be another.

It will be a bigger story having a mass shooting even over a collection of isolated shootings
 
Integrityrespec said:
Good answer. This is my point. We see these terrible mass shootings used for political points but we don't seem to see the same concern regarding the massive numbers of daily shootings that total such high casualty numbers in our cities on a daily/weekly basis.
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I’d suggest that there is a similar level of concern, it’s just more spread out and more localised in exactly the same way the incidents are. Mass shootings generate a big noise about the various proposed causes and solutions but that disappears just as quickly. Similar discussions about more common violent crimes continue to bubble along all the time. The irony is that many of the problems, and therefore many of the real solutions, will be exactly the same. The difference between someone committing a mass shooting or not often boils down to blind luck.
 
Sampson Simpson said:
Chicago gun violence is gang related, often other gang member getting shot, although there are innocents that get caught up in it, and its unfortunate for those that live in those areas that get caught up in it. Mass shootings are just completely random killings in seemingly innocuous places, which may make it worse



This is nothing more than a defleciton. Talking about finding solutions to an undeniable problem of gun violence in this country is not playing politics. Nobody is buying that lame political BS deflection anymore. It's not playing politics to talk about a real problem, and especially after 2 events happen on the same day killing 29. And in a week there will probably be another.

It will be a bigger story having a mass shooting even over a collection of isolated shootings
Click to expand...

Except in this country we have been talking about these problems for years and neither side politically seem to want to find a solution bad enough for compromise legislation that could pass in congress. The left likes to blame the right but don't forget the left had the House, Senate, President under President Obama and did nothing. The failure to get results is on both parties and everyone involved.
 
This isn't even a question. Chicago, Baltimore, Detroit, and I wouldn't be surprised if New York, L.A., and San Francisco are in the same category when it comes to shootings, but in any case, they are hell holes. All of them have death, theft, fraud, and other crimes every single day. The media never reports on it because they know the main reason why these towns are so bad is due to LEFTIST policies. The Republicans have EXTREMELY little to effect, let a lone a voice, in these places, so they're out of the question, but the media, instead, blames them. The Left promises utopia and they put in these "utopia" (totalitarian) laws, but for some odd reason crime still happens. They actually escalate because their laws go always seem to target law abiding citizens but NOT CRIMINALS, the people who ACTUALLY commit crime. Their laws have people living out on the streets with their poop laying all over the place, nearby their syringes where they shoot up these people's drugs. Their laws cause rolling blackouts on a daily basis to try and save energy cost. Their allows don't take of (literal) rats that infest the streets and spread disease. But somehow that's "utopia" for these Leftists because people can do what they want. Meanwhile, in reality, that's what poverty and oppression looks like.

These shooters in El Paso and Dayton gave into Leftist ideology. One was an anti-immigration, environmental anarchist while the other was a Satanic socialist with rapist fantasies who loved Crazy Bernie and Fauxahontas Warren. They were probably told that since they were white males that they were evil while going through school (which education is ran by the Left). They were also taught that the world was going to die in 10 years because of climate change and were told women were never going to be interested in them because they were white men. This is just to name a few things the Left preaches young people. So there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that these shootings were the result of these things, in addition to having broken families and the lack of MEN in their lives.

As bad as these 2 were, however, they PALE in comparison to what happens in places like Chicago on a weekly basis. 29 deaths might actually be a low for places like Chicago on a better week. Baltimore has reached their 200th death this year. Bottom line, what do the shooters of El Paso and Dayton have in common with gangs and murderers in places like Chicago and Baltimore? They're ALL Leftists born of Leftist policies and ideology. That should be the take away.
 
We are splitting hairs on which is worse, presumably because of where loss of life occurs and/or motivations, and in the end probably doing little to nothing to deal with all of it.

It is easy to argue that we tend to look at these things through the confines of how the media covers, and then politicians respond, to these events and that in turn provokes us to respond right down ideological lines.

We see week after week where there is little focus on the consistent losses of life from gun violence in St. Louis, Baltimore, Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Memphis, etc. yet we have a mass shooting like what happened in El Paso or Dayton and it will be covered in detail for days, if not weeks, on end.

The even bigger issue is what the expectation is of government doing something and how that something will be applied.

Ironically for this conversation is what is likely to happen. Assume for a moment that we see background checks and certain gun types outlawed at the Federal level, we can safely conclude the application of these laws would disproportionately go after minorities first just as all 'crack down on crime' intending legislation to date has ended up applied. We see it time and time again, with the biggest example to date being our so called war on drugs. So under the assumption that certain guns are taken away, who do you think will see that activity first?
 
The number of murders in Baltimore (34) in the last 30 days was the same as it was for all 3 mass shootings a few days ago.
 
I didn't vote because you left out: None of these represent a gun problem.
 
Obviously it's worse in densely populated cities. And you'd think taking care of the socio-economic factors that drive such violence would be a higher priority than gun control for most, but you'd be wrong. Arresting people for having a gun seems to be more preferable than stopping them from needing a gun if the first place.
 
Ask yourself this

Can you handle:

people being murdered within a 3-4 block radius every month to 6 weeks?

Strong armed robbery within a 8 block radius every week?

ISIS living on your street, 10 doors down? (The FBI removed them of course, but do you think they're alone?)

Don't move to Chicago


These body counts you see sensationalized on the news are weekly occurrences in Chicago.

Predominantly on the South and West sides, but up on the North too, with less frequency.

Rapes and robbery are usually what occur in the whitest of white sections of the city, which of course are the limousine liberal strongholds.

But all around them, even in, "good" neighborhoods like mine...it is nothing to hear gun shots and murders in spots you were just at earlier in the day.


Some of the most strict gun laws and it's the F'n Wild Wild West

Which is why I'm always heavy...


That's actually the unofficial name of an area in the city. "The Wild 100s"

The area on the South side that's about 100 to 138th street.


So all this hoopla on the TV doesn't really move the needle, as sorry as that is to say...
 
AProudLefty said:
Drug gangs are always at war with each other.
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And lets not pretend right winger care about gang violence in the ghettos. They don't. And they don't care to do anything to help those neighborhoods, can't possibly help those lazy poor people. Then they try to be outraged by this.

It's the same as how they try to point to struggling neighborhoods in cities, the homeless, the drugs, but ignore the crumbling rural areas, high method and opioid abuse, low education rates, and poor health of these areas.
 
Didnt vote.

Generalizations:

--in one poll option, you have a sub-population (gang members, criminals) who despite laws, still manage to get guns.

--in another poll option, you have screwed up individuals (mentally ill or sociopathically defective) that often can legally acquire guns, but no laws prevent these POS emotionally crippled individuals from killing.

So the common factor? The laws mean nothing to these individuals who are determined to kill.

--In the former option, we need to address and fix the socio-economic conditions where these criminals spend most of their lives.

--In the latter, we need to figure out, how our society is creating these POS losers and then focus on identifying and stopping or helping them.

This requires $$ and commitment and taking responsibilty from society more than new laws. If there are some laws that enable identifying and tracking these individuals, I'm listening.
 
Sampson Simpson said:
And lets not pretend right winger care about gang violence in the ghettos. They don't. And they don't care to do anything to help those neighborhoods, can't possibly help those lazy poor people. Then they try to be outraged by this.

It's the same as how they try to point to struggling neighborhoods in cities, the homeless, the drugs, but ignore the crumbling rural areas, high method and opioid abuse, low education rates, and poor health of these areas.
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My, my, you are just full of bull. You sure have bought into the liberal left talking points. I'd venture to guess that most right wing people are interested about what is gong on in the ghettos and everywhere else in America. Its' their tax dollars poorly spent in these places by ineffective local leadership and the US Congress. We might do a better job of spending tax dollars at every level and manage to cut down on crime as well.
 
Sampson Simpson said:
And lets not pretend right winger care about gang violence in the ghettos. They don't. And they don't care to do anything to help those neighborhoods, can't possibly help those lazy poor people. Then they try to be outraged by this.

It's the same as how they try to point to struggling neighborhoods in cities, the homeless, the drugs, but ignore the crumbling rural areas, high method and opioid abuse, low education rates, and poor health of these areas.
Click to expand...

Ain't globalization great. We don't need jobs for common people; let those jobs go to China. We gonna be all HI-TECH.
 
Integrityrespec said:
Chicago is worse.
El Paso is worse.
El Paso is worse because these are hate crimes.
Chicago is worse because it is constant.
Click to expand...

The intercity like Chicago are worse. Nation wide, 100 people died every day due to gun violence.
 
Lursa said:
Didnt vote.

Generalizations:

--in one poll option, you have a sub-population (gang members, criminals) who despite laws, still manage to get guns.

--in another poll option, you have screwed up individuals (mentally ill or sociopathically defective) that often can legally acquire guns, but no laws prevent these POS emotionally crippled individuals from killing.

So the common factor? The laws mean nothing to these individuals who are determined to kill.

--In the former option, we need to address and fix the socio-economic conditions where these criminals spend most of their lives.

--In the latter, we need to figure out, how our society is creating these POS losers and then focus on identifying and stopping or helping them.

This requires $$ and commitment and taking responsibilty from society more than new laws. If there are some laws that enable identifying and tracking these individuals, I'm listening.
Click to expand...

You and I may differ on some issues, but on violence we can agree. I also think the real source of violence is the socio-economic conditions. I'm not talking more welfare here; we need to actually make real economic improvements. The number ONE cited problem as stated by residents of poor neighborhoods is the lack of round the clock dependable public transportation. Most of the jobs are in better locations and often odd hours (night shift/graveyard shift). Number TWO is a lack of high quality grocery stores. Mostly they have little high priced run down hole in the wall grocery stores or gas station convenience stores. Number THREE is school choice. Poor people can't afford private schools and need a voucher system. Just like college money does; the state money should follow the student to whatever school is chosen, public or private.

Regarding the mentally ill shooters. The SC ruled that no one could be committed, or under-go out patient treatment, with out their consent. this resulted in the closing of most state, and lots of private mental hospitals. Now our prisons are full of mentally ill people. HIPPA laws now make it a crime for a doctor (or any staff) to disclose any details about treatment. A doctor is not even allowed to tell family members that their family member might be a danger to themselves or others (without permission). Most doctors (psychologists/ psychiatrists) won't warn law enforcement. No one but the doctor and the patient knows that he may be a mass killer. This situation needs to be looked into.
 
Waddy said:
Regarding the mentally ill shooters. The SC ruled that no one could be committed, or under-go out patient treatment, with out their consent. this resulted in the closing of most state, and lots of private mental hospitals. Now our prisons are full of mentally ill people. HIPPA laws now make it a crime for a doctor (or any staff) to disclose any details about treatment. A doctor is not even allowed to tell family members that their family member might be a danger to themselves or others (without permission). Most doctors (psychologists/ psychiatrists) won't warn law enforcement. No one but the doctor and the patient knows that he may be a mass killer. This situation needs to be looked into.
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The bold isnt true. Drs can compell without consent. Also in some states now, including after the Cafe Racer shooting in Seattle, where the family reported to authorities they believed he was dangerous and the law didnt allow them to have him committed, the law was changed so that they could, at least temporarily, for observation/treatment.

Over the past three years, several state bills have passed that help people in situations similar to Walt’s. One of the most significant was signed into law two weeks ago. It helps family members petition the court to commit a patient.

Jim Vollendroff, Director of King County’s mental health division, says it’s one of several ways things that are a bit better now.

“Say a family member refers their family to a designated mental health professional and that designated mental health professional goes out and determines that the individual does not meet criteria,” Vollendroff said. “The family now has the ability to go to the court and say we disagree with that and here’s why and see if the court will overturn the designated mental health professional’s opinion.”

Father of Cafe Racer shooter reflects on the tragedy
Click to expand...

Other states have been passing similar laws.
 
HonestJoe said:
Why do you even need to play them off against each other? There are some similarities where the same kind of solutions could work and there are some differences, where different solutions could work. You’re all ultimately part of the same nation facing these problems though so why not just work together in trying to address all of your problems together?
Click to expand...

Fact is, you are much safer in El Paso and Dayton than you will ever be in Chicago.
 
Integrityrespec said:
Except in this country we have been talking about these problems for years and neither side politically seem to want to find a solution bad enough for compromise legislation that could pass in congress. The left likes to blame the right but don't forget the left had the House, Senate, President under President Obama and did nothing. The failure to get results is on both parties and everyone involved.
Click to expand...

The problem is the left thinks feel good legislation will stop the problem when it won't. In almost all cases, the very same "common sense" gun control legislation that Democrats want to pass, would not have prevented hardly any mass shootings we have had. Until those in power realize that guns are not the problem, people are the problem, these things will keep on happening. If you really want to commit mass murder you don't really need a gun, all you have to do is drive a rented truck through a huge crowd. The left also believe in letting criminals run around loose (every Democratic candidate complains about our incarceration rate) and then pass gun control legislation to keep guns out of these criminal's hands. They don't seem to grasp the fact that criminals don't obey laws. That's why they are criminals. They will get guns even if it is against the law for them to have them.
 
Moderate Right said:
Fact is, you are much safer in El Paso and Dayton than you will ever be in Chicago.
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That still doesn't explain why they need to be played off each other. If you care about addressing one or both sets of problems, it shouldn't really matter which is "worse". If you don't care about addressing either of them, what valid reason is there to comment at all?
 
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