• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Are the ICE border detention centers "concentration camps"?

Are ICE detention centers concentration camps?

  • Yes, they have always been

    Votes: 12 16.4%

  • Yes, but only since Trump became President

    Votes: 9 12.3%

  • Yes, but only when Obama was President

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • No, they aren't comparable whatsoever to Nazi concentration camps

    Votes: 52 71.2%
  • Total voters
    73
vesper said:
You seem to be having difficulty with how concentration camps were defined in WWII and all the writings defining the killing of 6 million Jews and those who were caught hiding them and their destinations were defined as concentration camps. The killing of Jews and those who helped to hide them that were sent to said camps facing torture and death but it was also any person in any country that fought the Nazis were rounded up and sent to concentration camps as well. Members of my family in Yugoslavia at the time that were fighting the Nazis and were captured met hideous deaths. Their wives, children and elderly grandparents from the village they were from were ordered into the church. It was boarded up and set on fire by the Nazis killing all of them.

So I don't know what definition you are clinging to but all the writings from WWII where Nazis were gassing, torturing and killing them in mass were defined as concentration camps.

I can't believe in the 21st century that our citizens are so ignorant in history.
Click to expand...
What do you expect from an ignorant liberal educated from an ignorant teacher or ignorant professor from our ignorant school system
 
Hamish Howl said:
Those were commonly referred to as death camps or extermination camps.

At the same time as those occurred, we had Japanese citizens in concentration camps. We didn't kill them, but they were still concentration camps.
Click to expand...

Those from the Auschwitz Center have come out strongly against AOC's comments and I guess that includes you too. They were referred to as concentration camps.
 
vesper said:
Those from the Auschwitz Center have come out strongly against AOC's comments and I guess that includes you too. They were referred to as concentration camps.
Click to expand...

Let them get pissed. The term has a distinct meaning.
 
gulfman said:
What do you expect from an ignorant liberal educated from an ignorant teacher or ignorant professor from our ignorant school system
Click to expand...

Amen.
 
vesper said:
You seem to be having difficulty with how concentration camps were defined in WWII and all the writings defining the killing of 6 million Jews and those who were caught hiding them and their destinations were defined as concentration camps. The killing of Jews and those who helped to hide them that were sent to said camps facing torture and death but it was also any person in any country that fought the Nazis were rounded up and sent to concentration camps as well. Members of my family in Yugoslavia at the time that were fighting the Nazis and were captured met hideous deaths. Their wives, children and elderly grandparents from the village they were from were ordered into the church. It was boarded up and set on fire by the Nazis killing all of them.

So I don't know what definition you are clinging to but all the writings from WWII where Nazis were gassing, torturing and killing them in mass were defined as concentration camps.

I can't believe in the 21st century that our citizens are so ignorant in history.
Click to expand...

Apparently that's not quite the case.

"What's required is a little bit of demystification of it," says Waitman Wade Beorn, a Holocaust and genocide studies historian and a lecturer at the University of Virginia. "Things can be concentration camps without being Dachau or Auschwitz. Concentration camps in general have always been designed—at the most basic level—to separate one group of people from another group. Usually, because the majority group, or the creators of the camp, deem the people they're putting in it to be dangerous or undesirable in some way."

Not every concentration camp is a death camp—in fact, their primary purpose is rarely extermination, and never in the beginning. Often, much of the death and suffering is a result of insufficient resources, overcrowding, and deteriorating conditions. So far, 24 people have died in the custody of Immigration and Customs Enforcement under the Trump administration, while six children have died in the care of other agencies since September. Systems like these have emerged across the world for well over 100 years, and they've been established by putative liberal democracies—as with Britain's camps in South Africa during the Boer War—as well as authoritarian states like Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union. Camps set up with one aim can be repurposed by new regimes, often with devastating consequences."

Concentration Camps Expert Andrea Pitzer: The Trump Administration Is Running Camps at the Southern Border
 
This question arose because AOC has been busy testing her new tropes of outrage, the latest being histrionic accusations that the US runs concentration camps for detainees and making allusions to the Jewish slogan of "Never Again".

Ms. AOC's approach is to use a particularly dishonest rhetorical ploy, a trickery using the noun "concentration camp" in different senses to different audiences and contexts, without much respect for the archetypical meaning that is conveyed.

First, every attentive school child or half-educated adult think of "concentration camps are where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area... to provide forced labor or to await mass execution." They associate it "with the several hundred camps established by the Nazis in Germany and occupied Europe in 1933–45, among the most infamous being Dachau, Belsen, and Auschwitz.". (Bing Definition).

Second, that is common vehicular meaning Ms. AOC conveyed to the general public, by linking it to the extermination of the Jews threw their slogan "Never Again".

Last, under fire from critics who consider that disingenuous as well as a nonsensical comparison, Ms. AOC has defended her ploy citing an "ACADEMIC" meaning that she didn't mention to a GENERAL audience, a difference of senses she exploited in her initial comments to those know its common meaning, ie; death camps.

Therefore it is pointless to quibble over which meaning is correct; the reality is that BOTH meanings exist to different audiences. If she meant an academic definition, one that precludes the horrors of the holocaust as a defining element, then she should have told the general audience. Later claiming she meant something not usually understood by most is not a defense of her disingenuous trope.

In short: no, the border centers are NOT concentration camps as generally understood in common discourse (and the centers have nothing to do with never again).
 
Last edited:
vesper said:
Those from the Auschwitz Center have come out strongly against AOC's comments and I guess that includes you too. They were referred to as concentration camps.
Click to expand...

What did they say?
 
maxparrish said:
This question arose because AOC has been busy testing her new tropes of outrage, the latest being histrionic accusations that the US runs concentration camps for detainees and making allusions to the Jewish slogan of "Never Again".

Ms. AOC's approach is to use a particularly dishonest rhetorical ploy, one depends on using the noun "concentration camp" in different senses to different audiences, without much respect for its archetypical meaning.

First, every attentive school child or half-educated adult think of "concentration camps are where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area... to provide forced labor or to await mass execution." They associate "with the several hundred camps established by the Nazis in Germany and occupied Europe in 1933–45, among the most infamous being Dachau, Belsen, and Auschwitz.". (Bing Definition).

Second, that is common vehicular meaning Ms. AOC conveyed to the general public, and tied to the extermination of the Jews threw their slogan "Never Again".

Last, under fire from critics who consider that disingenuous, Ms. AOC has defended her comments citing an "ACADEMIC" meaning to a GENERAL audience, a difference of senses she avoided mentioning and exploited in her initial comments to those fully aware of its common meaning.

Therefore it is pointless to quibble over which meaning is correct; BOTH meanings exist to different audiences. If she meant to leave the impression of an academic definition, one that precludes the horrors of the holocaust as a defining element, then she should have not mislead the general audience. Later claiming she meant something not usually understood is not a defense of her disingenuous trope.

In short: no, the border centers are NOT concentration camps as generally understood in common discourse (and they have nothing to do with never again).







[
Click to expand...

She is hardly the first or the only one to make the claim.
 
Josie said:
When illegal aliens choose to cross the border they are housed in ICE detention centers at the border. Would you call these centers "concentration camps"?
Click to expand...

concentration camp | Facts, History, & Definition | Britannica.com

Concentration camp, internment centre for political prisoners and members of national or minority groups who are confined for reasons of state security, exploitation, or punishment, usually by executive decree or military order.

By definition, it appears to be so.
 
Hamish Howl said:
Those were commonly referred to as death camps or extermination camps.

At the same time as those occurred, we had Japanese citizens in concentration camps. We didn't kill them, but they were still concentration camps.
Click to expand...

This is nitpicking and you know it.
We know, you know, that it is eluding to the fact that "Trump is like Hitler when he first started" and all who think we need to have a better immigration system "must be a Nazi".
I don't buy into the "lets carefully at the definition of concentration vs extermination camp", because we all know that, once the Jews, and may others, were on their way to Auschwitz, their fate was sealed.
The Japanese were held during for entirely different reasons. Wrongly so, but no comparison.
We don't round anyone up south of the border. We don't transport anyone to the centers. They come. When they do, they must be checked out. Their fate is not the gas chamber. They are released going north or back south.
Coming over is their choice. Big difference.
If you want to blame someone for their misery, blame those who spread false information while forgetting to mention that we do have laws.
My goodness, this pretense of compassion and false outrage is beyond pale.
 
Perhaps they're comparable to the japanese internment camps but certainly not the ones used by the Nazis.
 
Lovebug said:
Are they concentration camps? No
These centers are to house and detain until a solution can be found. Those who come to the border know the risks. They can leave to the south.
Click to expand...

The final one?
 
Josie said:
When illegal aliens choose to cross the border they are housed in ICE detention centers at the border. Would you call these centers "concentration camps"?
Click to expand...

Since the occupants are there voluntarily they are not concentration camps.

Doesn't mean the camps are right or humane - but they are not concentration camps. They may be "like" concentration camps (not all are a extreme as the german camps) but they are not concentration camps.
 
Josie said:
When illegal aliens choose to cross the border they are housed in ICE detention centers at the border. Would you call these centers "concentration camps"?
Click to expand...

Anyone who thinks so is repugnant for not truly understanding the horrors of a real concentration camp. The victims would be turning over in their graves at the comparison.
 
gulfman said:
I'll bet the Jews getting off the train at Auschwitz couldn't wait to get in line for a nice hot shower and hot meal.
Click to expand...

I bet the folks who're detained in these camps would also love a hot meal and a hot shower.

Appeals Court Hear Arguments On Conditions For Undocumented Immigrant Children
Bay City News Service | on June 18, 2019
In 2017, after reviewing claims of substandard conditions, Gee ordered officials to provide soap, toothbrushes and showers and to end an alleged practice of having children sleep on concrete floors under an aluminum blanket in cold, noisy and constantly lighted rooms.
The U.S. Justice Department is asking the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals to strike down the order...​
All three judges on the panel questioned Fabian as to why the requirements in Gee's order shouldn't be considered necessities.​
Judge William Fletcher said, "If you're putting people in a crowded room to sleep on a concrete floor with an aluminum blanket on top and lights on all night long, no one could argue this is safe and sanitary."​
Judge Wallace Tashima said, "It's within anyone's understanding that if you don't have a toothbrush, soap and blanket, it's not safe and sanitary."​
The Flores agreement also requires that undocumented immigrant children be released to a relative or family friend or placed in a licensed care program within 20 days.​

Unsafe and unsanitary conditions is another point for the "Yes, these're a concentration camps," argument.
 
Simon W. Moon said:
I bet the folks who're detained in these camps would also love a hot meal and a hot shower.

Appeals Court Hear Arguments On Conditions For Undocumented Immigrant Children
Bay City News Service | on June 18, 2019
In 2017, after reviewing claims of substandard conditions, Gee ordered officials to provide soap, toothbrushes and showers and to end an alleged practice of having children sleep on concrete floors under an aluminum blanket in cold, noisy and constantly lighted rooms.
The U.S. Justice Department is asking the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals to strike down the order...​
All three judges on the panel questioned Fabian as to why the requirements in Gee's order shouldn't be considered necessities.​
Judge William Fletcher said, "If you're putting people in a crowded room to sleep on a concrete floor with an aluminum blanket on top and lights on all night long, no one could argue this is safe and sanitary."​
Judge Wallace Tashima said, "It's within anyone's understanding that if you don't have a toothbrush, soap and blanket, it's not safe and sanitary."​
The Flores agreement also requires that undocumented immigrant children be released to a relative or family friend or placed in a licensed care program within 20 days.​

Unsafe and unsanitary conditions is another point for the "Yes, these're a concentration camps," argument.
Click to expand...

It's difficult to respond to the massive invasion of the US by uninvited foreign nationals in ways that don't impose some difficult conditions on those who are participating in it.
 
ocean515 said:
It's difficult to respond to the massive invasion of the US by uninvited foreign nationals in ways that don't impose some difficult conditions on those who are participating in it.
Click to expand...
Life is hard.
Life is unfair.
But the milk's still good.

Are you arguing that the US federal govt lacks the resources?
Or are you arguing that the politicians are not giving the folks running the camps the resources they need?

Did you notice that the kids're supposed to be released from the camps within 20 days?
If this rule were followed, would it relieve some of the pressure on the already inadequate resources?
Why do you suppose the rule is not being followed?
 
ocean515 said:
It's difficult to respond to the massive invasion of the US by uninvited foreign nationals in ways that don't impose some difficult conditions on those who are participating in it.
Click to expand...

The companies that run those places are getting upwards of $775 per child per day.

Don't tell me they don't have the resources to provide basic necessities and humane treatment.
 
Josie said:
When illegal aliens choose to cross the border they are housed in ICE detention centers at the border. Would you call these centers "concentration camps"?
Click to expand...

Why, in your poll, do you assume concentration camps have to be nazi extermination camps?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom