Should declawing cats be illegal?

bearpoker · Jun 5, 2019

joko104 said:
Outdoor cats are an environmental disaster. Chipmunks are almost extinct in this country because of them. The number of birds - including endangers species - killed by outdoor cats numbers into the tens of millions a year.

We have had "outdoor" cats we rescued hoping to find them a home. BUT that cat WILL have a bell around it's neck - ALWAYS 100% of the time - to protect natural nature from the unnatural cat, which is a foreign invasive species.

We nearly always can find a home. But if not we're stuck with it, will evolve it across a month into being strictly a house cat and have it declawed. It is 100 times easier to find a home for a declawed cat. Outdoor cats don't live well or long around here - every kind of worm, coyotes, raccoons, hawks, owls, eagles, but mostly the worms and ticks - and other cats. They will kill anything and everything they can. The lifespan of an outdoor cat here is certainly less than 2 years - and they don't die a quick death unless by a predator.

I assure you that chipmunks in Tennessee are alive and well. I know. I see them on my daily walk. Not to mention that I had about 3 of them in my house, courtesy of 2 cats who kept bringing in their toys. Chipmunks are lots faster than mice. The less said about the outcome, the better. I'd be happy to live trap and send you some if you're feeling chipmunk deprived.

joko104 · Jun 5, 2019

trixare4kids said:
A declawed cat should never be allowed to go outdoors by their owners. That's what should be illegal.
I know someone who did this, declawed her cat so it wouldn't claw her furniture and one day her cat didn't make it home because the coyotes got her.

A cat, if started young, can easily be lease trained and even allowed outdoors on a line. We have a neighbor who does that. GORGEOUS long hair calico. The cat lays out in sun in the fenced yard. Sometimes she'll take it for a walk. Declawed. (99+% of the time it is only the front claws.) They can still scratch behind their ears and dig their back feet into the carpeting for a good back rub.

notquiteright · Jun 5, 2019

Josie said:
I have a vet tech friend who thinks this is a ridiculous law. Housecats don't need claws and some people who own and love cats have disorders or are on medication that would be potentially dangerous if they got scratched. Also, some cats have a temperament where they can really hurt someone so are we just going to euthanize all of those cats?

Ya need a new vet tech :roll:

The cat isn't declawed, it has the first segment of it's toe removed... :doh

Imagine if you had your fingers and toes cut off at the first knuckle. Many problems are caused by this, many cats refuse to use the litter box as the clay litter feels like you walking barefoot on a gravel road. They have behavioral issues from chronic pain and the furniture scratching issue can be trained out of most cats. My wife has fostered thousands in her 20 some years as a foster. (some adoption groups refuse to adopt to anyone who says they see declawing as an option for unwanted scratching..)

a better option it using nippers to remove the tips of a cat's claw to greatly reduce the chance of an unwanted scratch. Most cats don't mind and many are attention sluts if you combine a reward with the process (cats are like husbands in that most can be trained with the proper reward)

Bad tempered cats are 'barn cats' in many adoption agencies and many rural folks want cats who don't want inside the house but will stay in the out buildings.

She has been doing this across the country as she works on IT projects, been with quite a few adoption groups...

eace

AGENT J · Jun 5, 2019

JMR said:
The Humane Society states that declawing cats in cruel and unnecessary. The procedure involves cutting bones in the paws off at the first joint. Like having your fingers removed at the first knuckle. They go on to explain that all of the reasons given for the procedure are erroneous, and that declawing is outlawed in several other countries.

I'm not a cat lover so I have really not given this consideration in the past, and voted "other" but the below link to the Humane Society provides quite a bit of info.

Declawing cats: Far worse than a manicure | The Humane Society of the United States

Thanks thats interesting info like i already admitted until know the only thing i know about it is what i seen . . i gotta wonder what the percentage is for those drawbacks . . because like i said 20+ cats that my cousin had didnt have any issues
this is why im still leaning to know need to outlaw it until i see a logical reason to do so

i wonder if its a matter of poor regulations on how and who can do it? i wonder if the 20+ cats had no issues case the person who did it was very skill for but in some areas its not really regulated or something like that? "IF" that was the case then i would definitely support regulating it . .

joko104 · Jun 5, 2019

bearpoker said:
I assure you that chipmunks in Tennessee are alive and well. I know. I see them on my daily walk. Not to mention that I had about 3 of them in my house, courtesy of 2 cats who kept bringing in their toys. Chipmunks are lots faster than mice. The less said about the outcome, the better. I'd be happy to live trap and send you some if you're feeling chipmunk deprived.

All said, cats claim 14 percent of modern bird, amphibian and mammal island extinctions. But what about the mainland?
Their results paint a grim picture for wildlife. In a paper published today in Nature Communications, they write that between 1.4 to 3.7 billion birds lose their lives to cats each year in the United States. Around 33 percent of the birds killed are non-native species (read: unwelcome). Even more startlingly, between 6.9 to 20.7 billion small mammals succumb to the predators.

Read more: Feral Cats Kill Billions of Small Critters Each Year
|
Science
| Smithsonian

Neighbours cat just killed my last chipmunk

I am so very sad right now. We started with 5 chipmunks residing in various sections of our property and now have zero all because of the new cat the next door neighbour recently adopted 2months ago. We also have only 1 frog left out of 7 in our pond. I have also seen him kill 2 baby birds and numerous times various other neighbours have caught the cat pouncing on bird nests.

I feel like giving up because here I am trying to create a retreat for wildlife and this cat keeps killing everything

There are currently no restrictions or bylaws involving outdoor cats where I live.

Neighbours cat just killed my last chipmunk

Josie · Jun 5, 2019

notquiteright said:
Ya need a new vet tech :roll:

Actually now I'm talking to THREE vet techs who are all saying pretty much the same thing. Declawing can also now be done with a laser which has even less recovery time and less pain. Have you spoken to a vet or vet tech about this?

Incredulous · Jun 5, 2019

joko104 said:
Cutting off a male kittens testicles does not make it healthier. And if it gets outdoors it is in a world of hurt if a tomcat comes along. It will rip that castrated male cat to pieces, likely leaving it blind in 1 or both eyes - as that's what they go for.

Yes, it is for "population" control, but it is "cruel" and more lifelong altering to the cat's life. However, if done as a kitten, it also prevents a male cat's marking spraying - making it an impossible house cat unless you don't mind smelling cat piss and all your furniture soaked in it.

Sterilizing a cat will vastly alter its life more than no front claws.

Without front claws they will come back very quickly for food. With front claws they may be able to survive long enough and have wandered off too far. As I mentioned, we put a bell on any cat with it's front claws so it can't get anything if it gets out - plus it makes it much easier to find it because you hear the bell.

Of our house cats - declawed - only one permanently has a bell around his neck. He's a fireball of energy, but also the most loving and lovable - following everywhere - but then most likely to dash out the door. The bell makes following or finding him VERY easy. Just listen for the bell.

No one has explained how it is "cruel" to a cat, other than no animal or person likes surgery.

Sterilization of cats is not cruel, and overpopulation leads to euthanization.

Do Spayed or Neutered Cats Live Longer?

Why you should spay/neuter your pet

Josie · Jun 5, 2019

ecofarm said:
Aren't the rear claws defense?

Yes. We had a half-wall up for awhile in our living room (not all of the way to the ceiling) when we were kids because we needed another bedroom. My cat (front declawed) could very easily jump and then claw his way to the very top and just sit up there like a king. So I'm sure if he ever got outside, climbing a tree to get away from a predator wouldn't have been a problem.

bearpoker · Jun 5, 2019

joko104 said:
All said, cats claim 14 percent of modern bird, amphibian and mammal island extinctions. But what about the mainland?
Their results paint a grim picture for wildlife. In a paper published today in Nature Communications, they write that between 1.4 to 3.7 billion birds lose their lives to cats each year in the United States. Around 33 percent of the birds killed are non-native species (read: unwelcome). Even more startlingly, between 6.9 to 20.7 billion small mammals succumb to the predators.

Read more: Feral Cats Kill Billions of Small Critters Each Year
|
Science
| Smithsonian

Neighbours cat just killed my last chipmunk

I am so very sad right now. We started with 5 chipmunks residing in various sections of our property and now have zero all because of the new cat the next door neighbour recently adopted 2months ago. We also have only 1 frog left out of 7 in our pond. I have also seen him kill 2 baby birds and numerous times various other neighbours have caught the cat pouncing on bird nests.

I feel like giving up because here I am trying to create a retreat for wildlife and this cat keeps killing everything There are currently no restrictions or bylaws involving outdoor cats where I live.

Neighbours cat just killed my last chipmunk

All I can say is that there are plenty of chipmunks where I live and also plenty of feral cats. They break my heart when they come around. My cat runs them off. He's all sleek and well fed and they're all scruffy and thin.

joko104 · Jun 5, 2019

The majority of people who have an indoor kitten with claws will throw the cat out when it becomes an adult within a year. They are tired of finding their clothing, furniture, house works and carpeting shredded. Tired of someone being accidentally scratched sometimes too. Usually, before throwing it out they've lost their cool a few times, shouting at the cat, swatting at it with a broom etc - so it also is terrified of people - now out in the world - and it's a cruel world - from worms to predators to cars.

Then they just get another kitten - every year or so. Endless supply of kittens - and never the cost or bother of declawing.

Most of the time, not declawing a cat is an eventual death sentence.

(Sorry to go on so long about this, but we rescue cats - lots of them - but also protect nature including from cats. We spend a LOT of money on this all - well over $10K a year - and a lot of time - every day. My profession is protecting animals You will not find more of an animal lover than my wife - but in terms of reality. Any animal, not just domestic pets. Sometimes you HAVE to do things to an animal it doesn't like for its own good or good of others - whether it be bathing it, isolating it, restricting its diet, giving it shots or drops etc. And sometimes you have to do things so they can live acceptably with humans - and often for cats that means declawing

It's like caring for a child. They don't know what is best for them, only what they don't like at the moment.

I feel quite strongly about this for the REALITY of it, not the slogan of "cruelty" in the abstract.)

joko104 · Jun 5, 2019

bearpoker said:
All I can say is that there are plenty of chipmunks where I live and also plenty of feral cats. They break my heart when they come around. My cat runs them off. He's all sleek and well fed and they're all scruffy and thin.

Well, that is where you live. Your cat doesn't "run them off." Either your cat kills them or can't catch them. Cats are killers, it's their DNA, it was their original purpose (mice and rats)

Do you want the cat to kill them? If not, put a bell on your cat's neck (break-away collar so it can't chock.) Any pet place has them, probably your WalMart too. MUST be a breakaway collar - as all belled cat collars are.

It'll drive your cat nuts for about a day. Takes about a month for it to decide it's not worth the effort. It MAY still be able to really, really carefully sneak up on one, but at least all the birds would be safe.

joko104 · Jun 5, 2019

Josie said:
Yes. We had a half-wall up for awhile in our living room (not all of the way to the ceiling) when we were kids because we needed another bedroom. My cat (front declawed) could very easily jump and then claw his way to the very top and just sit up there like a king. So I'm sure if he ever got outside, climbing a tree to get away from a predator wouldn't have been a problem.

Cats can climb UP trees, but it is extremely difficult for them to climb down. They have to very slowly struggle to climb down backwards - and often instead will just sit way up in a tree and cry. Raccoons climb trees too. Not much protection from hawks or owls either. A cat can't self-defense fight when it's in a tree, having to hold onto the tree.

Trivial: Squirrels are the ONLY mammal with reversible wrists/ankles - why they can run down a tree face down or any direction. Did you know that? All other mammals that can climb a tree have a greatly more difficult time trying to go down backwards.

bearpoker · Jun 5, 2019

joko104 said:
Well, that is where you live. Your cat doesn't "run them off." Either your cat kills them or can't catch them. Cats are killers, it's their DNA, it was their original purpose (mice and rats)

Do you want the cat to kill them? If not, put a bell on your cat's neck (break-away collar so it can't chock.) Any pet place has them, probably your WalMart too. MUST be a breakaway collar - as all belled cat collars are.

It'll drive your cat nuts for about a day. Takes about a month for it to decide it's not worth the effort. It MAY still be able to really, really carefully sneak up on one, but at least all the birds would be safe.

No, he doesn't kill them. He growls at them and they slink off. Then they come back in a day or two. Cats don't fight to the death. They fight to establish dominance. My cat has the advantage because he is defending his territory. I have never found a cat corpse on my property. I have seen them on the road. Sometimes the same ones that my cat ran off. Cars are a far greater danger than my cat.

JMR · Jun 5, 2019

joko104 said:
In reality, so far 13 people had said they would rather kill cats than declaw cats in the poll for its real meaning.

I think then they should have to kill the cats themselves personally, rather than have a shelter do it. This way they have to live the consequences of their decision about cats - rather than claim a moral high ground, denying the real effect of killing lots and lots of cats and kittens.

Where did 13 people say that? You have offered the premise that it is an either or situation. Other cat owners have said otherwise.

Some people don't train their dogs...keep them on chains in the yard....shock them with electric collars. Many other dog owners would claim there's a better way.

Serenity · Jun 5, 2019

I've never even known anyone to do that here or even talk about doing it so I looked it up to see if it's common. Fortunately it is not.

In Australia, declawing has never been common, and for all practical purposes, does not exist. Nationwide legislation was recently enacted that prohibits the declawing of cats except for medical need of the cat. The Australian Veterinary Association's policy states: "Surgical alteration to the natural state of an animal is acceptable only if it is necessary for the health and welfare of the animal concerned. Performance of any surgical procedure for other than legitimate medical reasons is unacceptable."

joko104 · Jun 5, 2019

bearpoker said:
No, he doesn't kill them. He growls at them and they slink off. Then they come back in a day or two. Cats don't fight to the death. They fight to establish dominance. My cat has the advantage because he is defending his territory. I have never found a cat corpse on my property. I have seen them on the road. Sometimes the same ones that my cat ran off. Cars are a far greater danger than my cat.

Cars are a greater danger, but cats are instinctive killers. They literally were bred for that purpose. Our cats will sit for hours watching a mouth on the wall holding to get it, and sooner or later will. Lay for hours in front of the stove because they heard a water beetle. They'll have it by the next day. They'll kill it more by messing with it, stepping on it etc.
There are different varieties of cats. Usually cats with small heads - especially small heads and small bodies are "mousers." They will attack ANYTHING small that moves. There is nothing living that is small (unless raised with it) they won't stalk, lay waiting for or kill. One of our cats - the most lovable - is an extreme mouser. Small body. Small head. It looks for ANYTHING that moves - anything - day and night - never stops. We have NO bugs because of him (plus we keep a very clean kitchen).

JMR · Jun 5, 2019

Josie said:
My vet tech friend says that the procedure is almost always on very young cats who heal quickly. He doesn't recommend the procedure on an adult cat. And, yes, all surgeries are painful, but the vet should give pain meds so they're somewhat comfortable. Within a week, your cat will be jumping around again.

Does your vet tech friend have any opinion on the position of the Humane Society?

SDET · Jun 5, 2019

Josie said:
I have a vet tech friend who thinks this is a ridiculous law. Housecats don't need claws and some people who own and love cats have disorders or are on medication that would be potentially dangerous if they got scratched. Also, some cats have a temperament where they can really hurt someone so are we just going to euthanize all of those cats?

That sounds like a good plan.

joko104 · Jun 5, 2019

JMR said:
Where did 13 people say that? You have offered the premise that it is an either or situation. Other cat owners have said otherwise.

Some people don't train their dogs...keep them on chains in the yard....shock them with electric collars. Many other dog owners would claim there's a better way.

That's my interpretation in terms of actual effect, not motivation. I was noting what they think is more humane for cats they definitely would not claim is more humane for humans - yet we are just another species of mammal.

Amelia · Jun 5, 2019

I voted yes. It should be against the law to amputate your cat's toes for anything other than medical necessity.

If you can't deal with a cat without cutting its toes off, you don't need a cat.

JMR · Jun 5, 2019

joko104 said:
The majority of people who have an indoor kitten with claws will throw the cat out when it becomes an adult within a year. They are tired of finding their clothing, furniture, house works and carpeting shredded. Tired of someone being accidentally scratched sometimes too. Usually, before throwing it out they've lost their cool a few times, shouting at the cat, swatting at it with a broom etc - so it also is terrified of people - now out in the world - and it's a cruel world - from worms to predators to cars.

Then they just get another kitten - every year or so. Endless supply of kittens - and never the cost or bother of declawing.

Most of the time, not declawing a cat is an eventual death sentence.

(Sorry to go on so long about this, but we rescue cats - lots of them - but also protect nature including from cats. We spend a LOT of money on this all - well over $10K a year - and a lot of time - every day. My profession is protecting animals You will not find more of an animal lover than my wife - but in terms of reality. Any animal, not just domestic pets. Sometimes you HAVE to do things to an animal it doesn't like for its own good or good of others - whether it be bathing it, isolating it, restricting its diet, giving it shots or drops etc. And sometimes you have to do things so they can live acceptably with humans - and often for cats that means declawing

It's like caring for a child. They don't know what is best for them, only what they don't like at the moment.

I feel quite strongly about this for the REALITY of it, not the slogan of "cruelty" in the abstract.)

You seem to suggest that cats cannot be domesticated?

joko104 · Jun 5, 2019

JMR said:
Does your vet tech friend have any opinion on the position of the Humane Society?

The humane society has a very pointed view of cats and dogs - specifically that there are way, way, way too many of them. So they usually REQUIRE neutering and spaying for adoption. Quality of life or life alteration of the animal from that is irrelevant.

For declawing, they envision a non-existent reality of perfectly loving owners who will treat their cat as if their own child. But the vast majority do not. MOST people who have an indoor cat will get rid of it because of property destruction by the front claws. Not all, but I am convinced most will. After all, kittens and young cats are more fun anyway and there is an endless supply.

Also, "humane societies" and animal shelters usually have very different opinions from each other. Humane societies tend to think of a utopian natural world of perfect people who will give up everything for that pet. Yet neither that natural world nor perfect owners really exists. They tend to be urban dwellers of concrete worlds and don't actually interact much with animals. It is fantasy. Animal shelters (ie "the pound") deal with domestic animals every day and more have a view of how can any of these animals possibly be saved from being euthanized - knowing only a tiny percentage have any chance.

Also, humane societies don't distinguish well between domesticated animals (pets), livestock animals and animals in nature. A cat is a horrifically destructive invasive species - overwhelming the worst of all invasive mammals in environmental damage. Feral dogs are next followed by feral hogs - NONE being indigenous to the Americas.

bearpoker · Jun 5, 2019

joko104 said:
Cars are a greater danger, but cats are instinctive killers. They literally were bred for that purpose. Our cats will sit for hours watching a mouth on the wall holding to get it, and sooner or later will. Lay for hours in front of the stove because they heard a water beetle. They'll have it by the next day. They'll kill it more by messing with it, stepping on it etc.
There are different varieties of cats. Usually cats with small heads - especially small heads and small bodies are "mousers." They will attack ANYTHING small that moves. There is nothing living that is small (unless raised with it) they won't stalk, lay waiting for or kill. One of our cats - the most lovable - is an extreme mouser. Small body. Small head. It looks for ANYTHING that moves - anything - day and night - never stops. We have NO bugs because of him (plus we keep a very clean kitchen).

Absolutely. They are God's killing machines. They are also loving companions. I never said they weren't pitiless hunters. Just that the don't kill each other with abandon. My cat it totally into hunting prey. Just like any other cat. He doesn't kill other cats, though. I don't know where you got the idea that cats go around killing each other. They don't. I've had cats all my life. I would have noticed.

joko104 · Jun 5, 2019

JMR said:
You seem to suggest that cats cannot be domesticated?

I do not suggest that at all. Domesticating a feral adult cat is an extreme challenge, but cats and horses are not naturally a domesticated animal, while many types of dogs are.

Can you "domesticate" a cat not to use its front claws? No. With A LOT of effort you could maybe condition it to mostly use scratching posts and pads. But a cat will work its claws EVERY day. It is in their DNA. It is how they keep their claws in good condition and naturally from becoming too long. Many animals MUST chew, chew, chew stuff or constantly work their claws, hoves etc to keep trimming them from becoming too long.

As I write this, my WONDERFUL little gray cat, the perpetual kitten, is working his "claws" (paws) on my stomach, sitting on my lap, as in a couple minutes will curl up on my lap. EVERY cat we have WILL work their paws before going to sleep for the night.

Many people will punish a cat with claws for clawing on things - and that is cruel because that is what a cat instinctively MUST do.

JMR · Jun 5, 2019

joko104 said:
The humane society has a very pointed view of cats and dogs - specifically that there are way, way, way too many of them. So they usually REQUIRE neutering and spaying for adoption. Quality of life or life alteration of the animal from that is irrelevant.

For declawing, they envision a non-existent reality of perfectly loving owners who will treat their cat as if their own child. But the vast majority do not. MOST people who have an indoor cat will get rid of it because of property destruction by the front claws. Not all, but I am convinced most will. After all, kittens and young cats are more fun anyway and there is an endless supply.

Also, "humane societies" and animal shelters usually have very different opinions from each other. Humane societies tend to think of a utopian natural world of perfect people who will give up everything for that pet. Yet neither that natural world nor perfect owners really exists. They tend to be urban dwellers of concrete worlds and don't actually interact much with animals. It is fantasy. Animal shelters (ie "the pound") deal with domestic animals every day and more have a view of how can any of these animals possibly be saved from being euthanized - knowing only a tiny percentage have any chance.

Also, humane societies don't distinguish well between domesticated animals (pets), livestock animals and animals in nature. A cat is a horrifically destructive invasive species - overwhelming the worst of all invasive mammals in environmental damage. Feral dogs are next followed by feral hogs - NONE being indigenous to the Americas.

The Humane Society is correct. There ARE way too many unwanted cats and dogs, and neutering them is the only solution to the problem. We had a family friend who felt that neutering his very large male dog would "effect" his personality, and kept this animal as a pet. Unfortunately, the dog often escaped his leash and fought other dogs, and also crashed through a glass door to mate with a female in heat, in her owner's living room. No talk to this friend was of any use, because he valued his dog's balls more than any sanity.

Should declawing cats be illegal?