What is the acceptable percentage of evil?

The simple fact of the matter is that most studies show that illegal immigrants are less likely to commit crimes than native born americans.
Is Illegal Immigration Linked to More or Less Crime? - FactCheck.org

Of course, legal immigrants are even less likely to offend.

apdst said:

Our immigration system isn't broken.

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There is a humanitarian crisis at the border, entire families are being locked away or released to the streets, hundreds of thousands have grown up here since childhood and have no chance at citizenship, resources are being exhausted in foster care services at the border because illegals who would open their homes to children are now being arrested, and the courts have delays and systemic errors that undermine thier very purpose. But because Trump is president, suddenly you find it perfect?

CriticalThought said:

There is a humanitarian crisis at the border, entire families are being locked away or released to the streets, hundreds of thousands have grown up here since childhood and have no chance at citizenship, resources are being exhausted in foster care services at the border because illegals who would open their homes to children are now being arrested, and the courts have delays and systemic errors that undermine thier very purpose. But because Trump is president, suddenly you find it perfect?

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Nazis have to have their followers. That should be obvious by now.

CriticalThought said:

This has been the most irrational movement in US history. Fixing our immigration system would take a concerted effort from both liberals and conservatives for the better part of two decades. What is currently going on that leads anyone to believe that is possible? Trump and his minions seem to be doing everything in their power to burn every bridge and make compromise impossible for generations.

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Trump's surely not a great uniter, but I've seen no evidence to suggest that the Left wants anything but the continuance of "catch and release."

MrWonka said:

Why don't you go take a peak inside one of these detention centers holding thousands of children who have been ripped away from their parents likely never to been seen again for the crime of having improper documentation and tell me if you think their basic human rights are being protected from this administration.


I don't think it would be far fetched to argue that 100% of American Citizens have broken at least one law. Virtually everything solitary person in the world has at one point drove too fast, rolled through a stop sign, tried to beat a stop light, littered, forgotten to wear a seat belt, drove after one too many drinks... But our bill of rights protects against cruel and unusual punishment because the punishment must fit the crime. If your only crime is to have bad documentation, but you are an otherwise perfectly law abiding you cannot justify destroying a family.

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When we talk of "bad documentation," aren't we referencing illegals who have somehow escaped detection long enough to get phony papers?

In that scenario, we wouldn't be dealing with individuals who got stopped at the border and separated from their children by the decrees of the Ninth Circuit Court-- correct?

MrWonka said:

What percentage of a given population or demographic can be evil before it is acceptable to deny the entire population basic human rights?

I recently saw a claim that there was around 12 million undocumented immigrants in the United States. They said that if even 1% committed a violent crime that would be 12K victims/year. Apparently that was justification for round up all undocumented immigrants and deporting them.

So, apparently in the mind of that Trump supporter 1% is all you need. Of course that's a problem because 1% of white christian men in the United States have committed violent crimes as well. So what is the percentage?

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Illegals shouldn't be here. Doesn't matter whether they committed a crime or not. If they shouldn't be here then they shouldn't be here. You guys say crap like this and then with the next breath you claim that you are not for open borders. Well, apparently you are.

Masterhawk said:

The simple fact of the matter is that most studies show that illegal immigrants are less likely to commit crimes than native born americans.
Is Illegal Immigration Linked to More or Less Crime? - FactCheck.org

Of course, legal immigrants are even less likely to offend.

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They are certainly 100% more likely to break the United States Immigration laws. Otherwise, where did you get the description? Without documentation, they have become law breakers at the very moment they enter the country illegally.
Regards,
CP

CriticalThought said:

There is a humanitarian crisis at the border, entire families are being locked away or released to the streets, hundreds of thousands have grown up here since childhood and have no chance at citizenship, resources are being exhausted in foster care services at the border because illegals who would open their homes to children are now being arrested, and the courts have delays and systemic errors that undermine thier very purpose. But because Trump is president, suddenly you find it perfect?

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Build a wall. Secure the border. Slow, or stop their illegal entry.

And before you offer no other argument than "that won't work", remember that you just admitted that there's a humanitarian crisis at the border.

CriticalThought said:

There is a humanitarian crisis at the border, entire families are being locked away or released to the streets, hundreds of thousands have grown up here since childhood and have no chance at citizenship, resources are being exhausted in foster care services at the border because illegals who would open their homes to children are now being arrested, and the courts have delays and systemic errors that undermine thier very purpose. But because Trump is president, suddenly you find it perfect?

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Keyword's = at the border. And therefore requiring of defending against, rather than pandering. With one foolish exception, No President has been willing to give blanket amnesty to any group of aliens. We have accepted victims of Communism for a long time, extending to the point of accepting true victims along with Castro's criminal trash to make a point.
Why is it that the virile youth of Central America aren't fighting their corrupt governments, choosing instead to invade a nation who has done that for them.
Regards,
CP

Maybe we should have totally open borders. Then we can all slide into Third World status together. A massive low skill, low wage, surplus work force, combined with automation, could get rid of that pesky middle class altogether. And while we're at it, let's move as many jobs off shore as we can. Sounds like a plan !!

Waddy said:

Maybe we should have totally open borders. Then we can all slide into Third World status together. A massive low skill, low wage, surplus work force, combined with automation, could get rid of that pesky middle class altogether. And while we're at it, let's move as many jobs off shore as we can. Sounds like a plan !!

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Oh. it's a plan alright. Just not one we will go for. 2nd Amend, don't you know.
Regards,
CP

Ouroboros said:

Trump's surely not a great uniter, but I've seen no evidence to suggest that the Left wants anything but the continuance of "catch and release."

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None? Really?

concernedpuma said:

Keyword's = at the border. And therefore requiring of defending against, rather than pandering. With one foolish exception, No President has been willing to give blanket amnesty to any group of aliens. We have accepted victims of Communism for a long time, extending to the point of accepting true victims along with Castro's criminal trash to make a point.
Why is it that the virile youth of Central America aren't fighting their corrupt governments, choosing instead to invade a nation who has done that for them.
Regards,
CP

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I can answer that but I am curious if you actually care. The answer is not hard to come by so I imagine you could care less about Central Americans.

nota bene said:

The poll question is misleading. If this is about immigration/the border crisis, say so. "Evil" is an abstract idea, and besides, who decides what is "evil" and what is not? Who "this demographic"/"their"/"them" is never even identified.

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The 100% of people who have broken a law are clearly evil, at least according to Fledermaus who has, presumably, never broken a law.

CriticalThought said:

I can answer that but I am curious if you actually care. The answer is not hard to come by so I imagine you could care less about Central Americans.

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You are correct. I couldn't care less about how the Central Americans allow themselves to be governed. I am only concerned with the stability of my own. Governments can be changed, but it takes a willingness not shown there. We did it, with little help, and they can too. Though, they likely would as well, if the fit young folks would stay home and take care of business. Their problem is the easy out of invading the USA. If they weren't so eager to take an available out, like migrating, they would fix their internal problems. I don't believe we should interfere militarily, and throwing money and accommodation to a crisis has never worked. Paying others to be good has caused the failure of at least one great dynasty.
Regards,
CP

MrWonka said:

What percentage of a given population or demographic can be evil before it is acceptable to deny the entire population basic human rights?

I recently saw a claim that there was around 12 million undocumented immigrants in the United States. They said that if even 1% committed a violent crime that would be 12K victims/year. Apparently that was justification for round up all undocumented immigrants and deporting them.

So, apparently in the mind of that Trump supporter 1% is all you need. Of course that's a problem because 1% of white christian men in the United States have committed violent crimes as well. So what is the percentage?

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I don't specifically have a problem with illegal immigrants as people. I don't hate them. I don't think they are evil. I don't think they are even bad people. However I don't think they should be allowed to stay here illegally. They are essentially trespassing and like every one else who is trespassing they should be removed from the property they are trespassing by the authorities within the law. That doesn't mean I think our current immigration policies are right but they are what they are until we have politicians who will fix our policies.

Kreton said:

I don't specifically have a problem with illegal immigrants as people. I don't hate them. I don't think they are evil. I don't think they are even bad people. However I don't think they should be allowed to stay here illegally. That doesn't mean I think our current immigration policies are right but they are what they are until we have politicians who will fix our policies.

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Putting the law before morality and common sense has long been the cause of some of the greatest tragedies in world history. The vast majority of people in this country with good conscience know full well that our Immigration system is broken. But it won't get fixed because roughly 50% of the Republican party is made up of rabid xenophobic racists, and if the Republican establishment doesn't do exactly what they want the entire Republican party will collapse.

If we were still struggling to repeal prohibition because 50% of the Republican party was rabidly anti-alcohol would you still authorize us to split up families and put children in cages because their parents were caught drinking alcohol?

The problem here is that you have a law which is immoral and inhuman, but it's not harmful to anybody with the power to change it. This is what makes a free country so difficult to maintain. Everybody wants freedom for themselves, but other people? Other people might use that freedom to hurt me so we can't trust them with freedom. As long as you can write a law that specifically insures you yourself will not have you're rights curtailed you don't give a flying **** what happens to the people that law does apply to. You passed your law, and you can call them law breakers so you can justify whatever horrible treatment of them you feel like implementing.

Why don't you go to one of these prison camps filled with immigrant children or go find their parents and look them in the eye when you say, I don't hate you. I don't think your evil, but you're on my land so we're going to destroy your life and your family.

MrWonka said:

ing.

Why don't you go to one of these prison camps filled with immigrant children or go find their parents and look them in the eye when you say, I don't hate you. I don't think your evil, but you're on my land so we're going to destroy your life and your family.

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I am going to focus right here.

1. I didn't destroy their lives. For them to be in those camps means their lives were already destroyed by their own government or choices. Not mine.
2. I don't support putting them in camps. I think they should simply be refused entry and if caught in the US deported back across the border.

The open door policy of let anyone in to America who doesn't like their home country is well intentioned but not sustainable. It is not good for our country. It is not good for our system. We are drowning in debt. America needs immigration but they need to do it legally. Rather than fighting for illegal immigration to ignored we would be far better off fighting to have our legal immigration policies fixed. The United States doesn't have an obligation to care for the world. For the same reason you aren't opening your home to 30 homeless people tonight and financing their complete well being - as much as that would help them and as great as it would be if you could (and especially if your own children are starving) - you simply aren't going to because it isn't good for you or your family. America has to be responsible and providing for 11 million + people simply isn't responsible when we aren't even caring for our own people.

The US needs a real solution. The idea of letting everyone in and ignoring illegal immigration is just as stupid as the stopping immigration all together argument. Solutions are almost never found in these extremes.

Kreton said:

I am going to focus right here.

1. I didn't destroy their lives. For them to be in those camps means their lives were already destroyed by their own government or choices. Not mine.
2. I don't support putting them in camps. I think they should simply be refused entry and if caught in the US deported back across the border.

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You're supporting the politicians and the policies that do exactly that. That makes you responsible. You're every bit as responsible for this as a any German Citizen who supported or defended Hitler was for what happened to the Jews.

Kreton said:

The open door policy of let anyone in to America who doesn't like their home country is well intentioned but not sustainable. It is not good for our country. It is not good for our system. We are drowning in debt.

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All evidence to the contrary. Debt is not caused by immigration. In fact, immigrants, particularity illegal immigrants pay more into the tax code than they take out. Undocumented immigrants working in our country pay into social security and medicare just like citizens, but they can't with draw it when they retire. In fact, if you're looking for ways to save money and help reduce our deficits one really good solution would be to not spend billions of dollars on boarder security that is clearly not working.

Furthermore your notion that this is not sustainable is absurd. At least for the foreseeable future. Immigration is a supply vs demand problem. They come to America because there is a demand for cheap labor that cannot be filled with local workers. When the economy was struggling in 2008-2011 we actually saw net negative migration. When the system couldn't handle everyone living here people voluntarily left.

You think the Economy is like a car and immigrants are added weight, but the truth is that people, consumers, laborers are the fuel of the economy. They don't drag it down they power it.

Kreton said:

America needs immigration but they need to do it legally. Rather than fighting for illegal immigration to ignored we would be far better off fighting to have our legal immigration policies fixed.

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We are doing that, but the problem is that the Republican party is brimming with xenophobic racists who don't want the problem fixed. Fixing it would mean giving brown people a path to citizenship. But citizen's vote, and brown citizen's don't vote Republican because the Republican party is brimming with xenophobic racists that hate them. Even though we need immigrants to work for us they are hellbent on making sure those immigrants never achieve the rights and status of full citizens.

Kreton said:

The United States doesn't have an obligation to care for the world. For the same reason you aren't opening your home to 30 homeless people tonight and financing their complete well being

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If I owned a large ranch and needed people to help me tend my crops I would. All across the country today there are businesses, particularly in smaller towns and more rural places that are going under because they can't find workers qualified to do the jobs they need done. Entire fields full of crops aren't getting harvested.

Again you fail to grasp reality. Immigrants are not a burden for use to care for any more than you are. They are people who are capable of working for a living and earning their own keep. When we are already in the middle of a labor shortage it is nonsensically stupid to turn them away.

Kreton said:

America has to be responsible and providing for 11 million +

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WAKE UP!!!! READ CAREFULLY!!! LEARN SOMETHING!!!!

WE ARE NOT PROVIDING FOR THESE PEOPLE. THEY ARE PROVIDING FOR THEMSELVES. THEY ARE SELF SUSTAINING JUST LIKE YOUR ANCESTORS WERE.

In fact, in many case it is they who are providing for us. They are helping us pay for social security despite never collecting.

CriticalThought said:

This has been the most irrational movement in US history. Fixing our immigration system would take a concerted effort from both liberals and conservatives for the better part of two decades. What is currently going on that leads anyone to believe that is possible? Trump and his minions seem to be doing everything in their power to burn every bridge and make compromise impossible for generations.

Click to expand...

For how long is our immigration system in shambles, and how long has Trump been in office?

MrWonka said:

What percentage of a given population or demographic can be evil before it is acceptable to deny the entire population basic human rights?

I recently saw a claim that there was around 12 million undocumented immigrants in the United States. They said that if even 1% committed a violent crime that would be 12K victims/year. Apparently that was justification for round up all undocumented immigrants and deporting them.

So, apparently in the mind of that Trump supporter 1% is all you need. Of course that's a problem because 1% of white christian men in the United States have committed violent crimes as well. So what is the percentage?

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"Evil" is entirely a religious concept. The antonym of "good" is "bad," not "evil."

With regard to ILLEGAL aliens, they are all - 100% - in violation of the law and need to be deported. It is obvious that you have absolutely no respect for the law.

Glitch said:

"Evil" is entirely a religious concept. The antonym of "good" is "bad," not "evil."

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George W. Bush was a Bad President. Even he was not bad enough to support Donald Trump. The word bad, even with the word "Really" in front of it does not adequately describe a presidency who has embraced abject cruelty as a standard for policy.

Glitch said:

With regard to ILLEGAL aliens, they are all - 100% - in violation of the law and need to be deported. It is obvious that you have absolutely no respect for the law.

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And I'm sure you believe everyone going 60 in a 55 should have their drivers license revoked right?

Lovebug said:

For how long is our immigration system in shambles, and how long has Trump been in office?

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The Republican party has been heavily dependent on xenophobic racist human garbage to win national elections since going all the way back to Richard Nixon and his southern strategy. While they usually make a fancy polished business man type or some kind of war hero the figurehead of the party they have remained heavily dependent on the dumbest people in America to win them elections for roughly half of a century now.

MrWonka said:

You're supporting the politicians and the policies that do exactly that. That makes you responsible. You're every bit as responsible for this as a any German Citizen who supported or defended Hitler was for what happened to the Jews.

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This is just a stupid argument. This is nothing like the holocaust. If that is your argument we can be done.

All evidence to the contrary. Debt is not caused by immigration. In fact, immigrants, particularity illegal immigrants pay more into the tax code than they take out. Undocumented immigrants working in our country pay into social security and medicare just like citizens, but they can't with draw it when they retire. In fact, if you're looking for ways to save money and help reduce our deficits one really good solution would be to not spend billions of dollars on boarder security that is clearly not working.

Furthermore your notion that this is not sustainable is absurd. At least for the foreseeable future. Immigration is a supply vs demand problem. They come to America because there is a demand for cheap labor that cannot be filled with local workers. When the economy was struggling in 2008-2011 we actually saw net negative migration. When the system couldn't handle everyone living here people voluntarily left.

You think the Economy is like a car and immigrants are added weight, but the truth is that people, consumers, laborers are the fuel of the economy. They don't drag it down they power it.

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It isn't. And we are not talking about immigrants - we are talking illegal immigrants. Many of them are in need of benefits and assistance. If there is larger demand for labor than Americans can provide then the government needs to let people in. It is simple. Hiring illegal workers for less than minimum wage is not the right solution.

We are doing that, but the problem is that the Republican party is brimming with xenophobic racists who don't want the problem fixed. Fixing it would mean giving brown people a path to citizenship. But citizen's vote, and brown citizen's don't vote Republican because the Republican party is brimming with xenophobic racists that hate them. Even though we need immigrants to work for us they are hellbent on making sure those immigrants never achieve the rights and status of full citizens.

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I will never defend Trumps party.

If I owned a large ranch and needed people to help me tend my crops I would. All across the country today there are businesses, particularly in smaller towns and more rural places that are going under because they can't find workers qualified to do the jobs they need done. Entire fields full of crops aren't getting harvested.

Again you fail to grasp reality. Immigrants are not a burden for use to care for any more than you are. They are people who are capable of working for a living and earning their own keep. When we are already in the middle of a labor shortage it is nonsensically stupid to turn them away.

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I didn't ask if you own a ranch. There are homeless people right now sleeping outside. Why don't you let them in your house? As many as can fit?

WAKE UP!!!! READ CAREFULLY!!! LEARN SOMETHING!!!!

WE ARE NOT PROVIDING FOR THESE PEOPLE. THEY ARE PROVIDING FOR THEMSELVES. THEY ARE SELF SUSTAINING JUST LIKE YOUR ANCESTORS WERE.

In fact, in many case it is they who are providing for us. They are helping us pay for social security despite never collecting.

Click to expand...

WAKE UP!!!! READ CAREFULLY!!! LEARN SOMETHING!!!! YES WE ARE!!!!!!

Many illegal immigrants are not self sustaining and regardless allowing people to enter illegally does not solve the problem. Just because someone wants to enter a place doesn't mean they should be allowed to. For the same reason I cannot walk in and take residence in your living room.

Lovebug said:

For how long is our immigration system in shambles, and how long has Trump been in office?

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Trump took it from shambles to apocalyptic. Pouring gasoline on a fire is not a cure for your house burning down.