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Should the United States maintain Trade with China at the same level or turn elsewhere?

Should the United States maintain Trade with China at the same level or turn elsewhere?

  • The U.S. should maintain the same level of trade with China

    Votes: 1 5.0%
  • The U.S. should turn to other countries for trade over China

    Votes: 15 75.0%
  • I do not know enough about the issues to answer either way

    Votes: 1 5.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 4 20.0%

  • Total voters
    20
Yep

Bringing back manufacturing has quite a few positives

How.did.we.win WWII? We built more tanks, jeeps, ships and.weapons than any country in the world. Now we.are dependent on imports even for food.

High quality manufacturing jobs will put Americans to work in jobs that can allow them to buy homes, pay taxes and live the American Dream. restore our middle/working class. Improve income inequality. Put money in people's pockets where they can buy quality Made in America products

I am sure there are a lot more.positives


Returning to 1955 is not one of 'em.
 
That is true and they are also exempt from the Paris Accord. I don't know how that works, the two biggest polluters are exempt.

However, this should be a consumer thing. I personally will not by a made in China product if I have any option. If others did the same China would clean up their act or the business would move elsewhere. China for the most part makes little but trinkets. Those low cost Chinese made items can be made for the same low costs in many places. We should not allow them to destroy our planet.
There's also the issue that China is far and beyond the largest producer of "knock-offs," everything from "Tommy Hilfeiger" sweat shirts and "Vuitton" handbags to "Rolex" watches and everything in between, right down to the brand logos. Their intellectual property theft is so blatant that it practically has status as a "thing of legend."

You can go practically anyplace in New York and find people selling Chinese made knock-offs, from Nigerian vendors selling them right in front of flagship stores of the same (real) brands to Chinese owned stores on Canal Street where you can practically put together an all occasion wardrobe of cheaply copied merchandise, right down to the watch and skivvies.

NYPD pulls in a large army of multi- precinct plainclothes officers periodically and they execute a mass bust and confiscation, then the next day it's all back to "business as usual."



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It's gross to even mention it but dead pigs are floating down Chinese rivers daily. Pigs die from polluted feed. Farmers dump 'em into the river. China needs the USA soybeans that are prohibited by Trump's trade war because USA soy is both nutritious to pigs and other livestock and pure. China has turned to South American nations for soybeans, Brazil in particular but it's not enough for the huge mass of pigs in China nor are the South American soybeans of the same quality. US has reduced pork exports to China besides which is the main meat in China. While everyone there eats chicken, eating chicken is a vendor stop on the sidewalk in between meals. Pork in China is what beef is in the USA.

The geniuses in the Chinese Communist Party decided in the 1990s that they could ignore pollution while rushing headlong into unrestrained and unregulated economic development led of course by state enterprises. CCP fat asses based this decision on their perception that in the West both Europe and North America suffered insufferable pollution during the industrial revolution. This stupidity fell apart once citizens started spontaneous demonstrations against their grossly polluted air, land and waterways. In the many industrial areas to include Beijing a black sky at noon is ordinary. In the North of China where Chicago winters are the rule black smoke emanates from smokestacks when they turn on the Mao era boilers to heat buildings. Dalian City at the Yellow Sea is a modern and gleaming city engulfed by the black smoke of heating plants in the dozen big cities that arc around it.

The problem goes back to the ten years of Party Chairman and PRC president Hu Jintao who in 2012 left office to his successor Xi Jinpingpong who pays no mind to pollution. Hu had to make a new rule that public protests against pollution had to be accepted because so many Chinese were taking to the streets in every part of developing China to demand blue skies, soil they can grow things in and rivers they can drink water from without seeing dead pigs floating past out their kitchen window.

Maybe the worst part of the pig carcasses streaming downriver while getting mass snagged here and there is that the Party-Government has no expertise to clean it up. I met a recent twentysomething college grad in the heavily industrial South of China several years ago who was an environmental clean up technician whose English is good. He said he felt he accomplished something cleaning up wetlands of the Pearl River but that he felt alone in China doing it. He returned home in the North of China where there is virtually no cleanup. I continue to advise and assist him trying to get into a Stanford graduate program from which he will never return to China. He'll cheerfully set off for Central Kentucky University if that's what it comes down to (which I doubt). The mass of the Chinese population need to get out of China because the pollution is thorough and it is hopeless. Which is another severe discussion entirely.
The unsanitary bit seems to follow them across oceans -- the Chinatowns in some large U.S. cities are cesspools of trash on seriously filthy sidewalks and air permeated with "garbagy" odors.

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Ever amazed that you can order a dozen screws or a few resistors, or most anything from China and get it delivered to your door for free?

It's called free e-packet delivery. The Chinese government pays for shipping in China. Everything. But products coming into China are heavily taxed and regulated to pay for that free shipping.

An automobile made in the USA will cost double or triple what it costs here. Used to be even higher, but the WTO forced China to back off some on the automobile import charges.

Not so for other products. A t-shirt selling for $20 here would cost $80 in China, and have a stiff shipping charge.

Traditionally, we have not retaliated to much extent; until Trump came along.
 
Ever amazed that you can order a dozen screws or a few resistors, or most anything from China and get it delivered to your door for free?

It's called free e-packet delivery. The Chinese government pays for shipping in China. Everything. But products coming into China are heavily taxed and regulated to pay for that free shipping.

An automobile made in the USA will cost double or triple what it costs here. Used to be even higher, but the WTO forced China to back off some on the automobile import charges.

Not so for other products. A t-shirt selling for $20 here would cost $80 in China, and have a stiff shipping charge.

Traditionally, we have not retaliated to much extent; until Trump came along.
And President Trump has nearly six more years to fix the China trade problem, but he'll probably have it done in less than two. [emoji16]

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Given the history of how China has treated such trade in the past, not to mention how it has behaved in adhering to other standards of trade and international interaction over the years. We should find another way.

This coming from when they were poked at for undercutting US sources in the tire market several years ago (2008 I believe) to how they've always handled things as simple as copyright infringements in their own products and even below sub-standard trade/production practices.

It's not like we don't have other options, or even can't alleviate the problem of supply in our own country. Though finding where to produce such wares would be the first issue. California is probably one of the most horrible places to try and build a new business. But there are other states out there with the necessary will and available space to start up such productions.

I also don't support completely cutting China off. Maybe just sticking with them on products that they've been stable produces of for the last few decades and are therefor more trustworthy at producing.

Good points. China has become less a manufacturing colossus and more a broker for cheap labor. They are finding that the wage expectation's in their own country are not as appealing as some others. They may book orders, but even they have resorted to outsourcing. The countries that actually do the manufacturing might be good replacement partners for some items(not all).
Regards,
CP
 
Good points. China has become less a manufacturing colossus and more a broker for cheap labor. They are finding that the wage expectation's in their own country are not as appealing as some others. They may book orders, but even they have resorted to outsourcing. The countries that actually do the manufacturing might be good replacement partners for some items(not all).
Regards,
CP

There is a lot of opportunity to save money (i.e. extract maximum profit) in a global economic setting. Design the product using the best and brightest engineers in any nation, get the raw materials from the least expensive source nation(s), have the product assembled using the lowest cost labor nation(s) and sell the product at the highest price possible in rich nations - all while keeping the parent company in the lowest taxed nation.
 
There is a lot of opportunity to save money (i.e. extract maximum profit) in a global economic setting. Design the product using the best and brightest engineers in any nation, get the raw materials from the least expensive source nation(s), have the product assembled using the lowest cost labor nation(s) and sell the product at the highest price possible in rich nations - all while keeping the parent company in the lowest taxed nation.

Sure sounds brutish, but as presented, true.
Regards,
CP
 
The question for the evening is whether it is in the United States' long-term interests to maintain the bilateral trade relationship with China at the same level, or whether we should turn to other trading partners to fulfill our nation's need for manufactured consumer goods.

I was pondering recently in the wake of our nascent trade war with the People's Republic of China, and the fact that it is going to raise the cost of consumer goods of many Americans. The United States over the past four decades has become ever more dependent on trade with China. On the one hand it has helped lower the cost of living for the average American, while spuring the economic rise of one of the most destitute and backwards countries on the face of Earth into a new global superpower. On the other hand, our interdependent trade relationship with China has also spurred intellectual property theft, and China regaining its place from being the Sick Man of Asia into reestablishing what can only be called its Imperial hegemony over East Asia, and across the world. Many thought economic liberalization would come with political and social liberalization. Instead, we now see the rise of what can only be described as a bellicose, authoritarian, single-party fascist state which offers protectionism state-sponsored companies and in which the technological advances have allowed the Chinese Communist Party to control the lives of its citizens more efficiently from establishing the Orwellian "social credit system" and concentration camps for Western Chinese Muslim Ugyhurs.

For all intents and purposes, in exchange for decades worth of low-cost consumer goods, the United States appears to have given the Peoples Republic of China and the Chinese Communist Party the strength with which to subsume both its internal and its geopolitical rivals...the United States included. It reminds me of Aesop's Fable, The Eagle and the Arrow:

An Eagle was soaring through the air when suddenly it heard the whizz of an Arrow, and felt itself wounded to death. Slowly it fluttered down to the earth, with its life-blood pouring out of it. Looking down upon the Arrow with which it had been pierced, it found that the shaft of the Arrow had been feathered with one of its own plumes. "Alas!" it cried, as it died,

"We often give our enemies the means for our own destruction."

Now, many here might say that the United States is not much better than China, and perhaps worse than China. That is not my argument for this evening. My question to everyone here is whether or not it is in the United States' interests to continue to maintain this bilateral trade agreement at the same level, or whether we are stacking the wood for our own funeral pyre by doing so. Personally, I think we should be looking at opening up and widening trading relationships with other developing nations which actually share many if not all of our democratic values, respect for rule of law and individual liberty, such as India. But I would like to hear what those who are interested in this topic have to say. Have a good night, everybody.

China is a country of about 1.4 billion of quite possibly the hardest working people on the planet. Historically, they have usually been the most advanced culture on earth. For most of the history of civilization, China has been the world's strongest superpower. The last 200 years or so has been the exception to that.

Regardless of what we do, it's a given that at some point China will be a stronger country than we are. Luckily they are not a country that has historically projected its military power outside of its border regions. Instead, they project economic power. So my question is what are we worried about? China's per-capita defense spending is a tiny fraction of ours and always will be. Even when China's economy surpasses ours, our standard of living and per-capita income in the United States will still be much higher than it is in China. So what are we really worried about? I don't get it. Yes, they will a largely diplomatic check on our projection of power around the globe, but they have as much of an interest in and economically strong United States and Europe as we do.

As to trade with China. We buy stuff from them because they can produce those products more efficiently than anyone else.

Everyone I know that thinks China is this huge threat to us has never spent any real time there.
 
China is a country of about 1.4 billion of quite possibly the hardest working people on the planet. Historically, they have usually been the most advanced culture on earth. For most of the history of civilization, China has been the world's strongest superpower. The last 200 years or so has been the exception to that.

Regardless of what we do, it's a given that at some point China will be a stronger country than we are. Luckily they are not a country that has historically projected its military power outside of its border regions. Instead, they project economic power. So my question is what are we worried about? China's per-capita defense spending is a tiny fraction of ours and always will be. Even when China's economy surpasses ours, our standard of living and per-capita income in the United States will still be much higher than it is in China. So what are we really worried about? I don't get it. Yes, they will a largely diplomatic check on our projection of power around the globe, but they have as much of an interest in and economically strong United States and Europe as we do.

As to trade with China. We buy stuff from them because they can produce those products more efficiently than anyone else.

Everyone I know that thinks China is this huge threat to us has never spent any real time there.


In my 11th year in China I can advise anyone interested that global markets are awaiting the inevitable "major economic adjustment" the Boyz in Beijing keep sweeping under the proverbial rug. The Boyz have a lot of clout so they have a big broom that buys a lot of time which only makes the inevitable all the more devastating to their economy and financial systems that are anyway built on quicksand.

Even a quick look at history will inform anyone even remotely conscious that every China dynasty has failed. China is a succession of failed dynasties. The CCP Boyz in Beijing are the present dynasty of emperors in business suits. As with every new Chinese dynasty the CCP is a nervous dynasty as they rack up the current 300 percent debt to GDP ratio. China is a succession of failed dynasties and nothing but because every dynasty's answer to every problem and challenge is to increase the authority of the emperor. Xi Jinpingpong as we know just got made emperor for life. Rinse and Repeat.

Chinese military is an arm of the Party not the state. It's a bunch of Party hacks who swear allegiance to the Party and the Party leader, Xi pingpong. What they have done however is to focus to develop a counter weapon to every major weapon in the US arsenal, land, air, sea. Hence the carrier killer ballistic missile even though it's still untested over sea water, having been tested over lakes only then crashed into the mountain on the other side. If a carrier were a remote mountain then maybe eh.

CCP Boys claim more territory to regain than exists in all of China. After all, the Chinese would not be the Chinese if they weren't claiming territory they never had as due to be returned to 'em. Come hell or high water. Meaning CCP Boys know they'll have to take the land and waters because nobody's going to be giving their territory to the Chinese just because the Chinese have decided they want it. The Boyz will need rotsa ruck on that one too.

Now that Huawei has been blacklisted by US Department of Commerce and a Potus Executive Order issued the Boyz standard Chinese grandiose fantasies about IT have been stopped cold. Their technology initiative based on completely stolen technology is now dead. The standard Chinese grandiose fantasy of the Belt and Road is nowhere, the reason being no country in Asia wants Chinese swarming all over their territory building highways, airports, railways, ports, housing, commercial centers etc etc and doing it on Chinese money lent to each country that they can't pay back in a classic Chinese debt trap.

Your post says one thing and one thing only, which is that you've been had. Because one could go on with this reply. Get yourself a superior VPN in China btw so you don't get only the eternal Chinese grandiose fantasies from the Boyz and their rowers in the Party.
 
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In my 11th year in China I can advise anyone interested that global markets are awaiting the inevitable "major economic adjustment" the Boyz in Beijing keep sweeping under the proverbial rug. The Boyz have a lot of clout so they have a big broom that buys a lot of time which only makes the inevitable all the more devastating to their economy and financial systems that are anyway built on quicksand.

Even a quick look at history will inform anyone even remotely conscious that every China dynasty has failed. China is a succession of failed dynasties. The CCP Boyz in Beijing are the present dynasty of emperors in business suits. As with every new Chinese dynasty the CCP is a nervous dynasty as they rack up the current 300 percent debt to GDP ratio. China is a succession of failed dynasties and nothing but because every dynasty's answer to every problem and challenge is to increase the authority of the emperor. Xi Jinpingpong as we know just got made emperor for life. Rinse and Repeat.

Chinese military is an arm of the Party not the state. It's a bunch of Party hacks who swear allegiance to the Party and the Party leader, Xi pingpong. What they have done however is to focus to develop a counter weapon to every major weapon in the US arsenal, land, air, sea. Hence the carrier killer ballistic missile even though it's still untested over sea water, having been tested over lakes only then crashed into the mountain on the other side. If a carrier were a remote mountain then maybe eh.

CCP Boys claim more territory to regain than exists in all of China. After all, the Chinese would not be the Chinese if they weren't claiming territory they never had as due to be returned to 'em. Come hell or high water. Meaning CCP Boys know they'll have to take the land and waters because nobody's going to be giving their territory to the Chinese just because the Chinese have decided they want it. The Boyz will need rotsa ruck on that one too.

Now that Huawei has been blacklisted by US Department of Commerce and a Potus Executive Order issued the Boyz standard Chinese grandiose fantasies about IT have been stopped cold. Their technology initiative based on completely stolen technology is now dead. The standard Chinese grandiose fantasy of the Belt and Road is nowhere, the reason being no country in Asia wants Chinese swarming all over their territory building highways, airports, railways, ports, housing, commercial centers etc etc and doing it on Chinese money lent to each country that they can't pay back in a classic Chinese debt trap.

Your post says one thing and one thing only, which is that you've been had. Because one could go on with this reply. Get yourself a superior VPN in China btw so you don't get only propaganda from the Boyz and their rowers in the Party.

Interesting post. Thank you.
Regards,
CP
 
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