View Poll Results: Should the United States maintain Trade with China at the same level or turn elsewhere?

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  • The U.S. should maintain the same level of trade with China

    1 5.00%
  • The U.S. should turn to other countries for trade over China

    15 75.00%
  • I do not know enough about the issues to answer either way

    1 5.00%
  • Other

    4 20.00%
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Thread: Should the United States maintain Trade with China at the same level or turn elsewhere?

  1. #21
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    Re: Should the United States maintain Trade with China at the same level or turn elsewhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felis Leo View Post
    The question for the evening is whether it is in the United States' long-term interests to maintain the bilateral trade relationship with China at the same level, or whether we should turn to other trading partners to fulfill our nation's need for manufactured consumer goods.

    I was pondering recently in the wake of our nascent trade war with the People's Republic of China, and the fact that it is going to raise the cost of consumer goods of many Americans. The United States over the past four decades has become ever more dependent on trade with China. On the one hand it has helped lower the cost of living for the average American, while spuring the economic rise of one of the most destitute and backwards countries on the face of Earth into a new global superpower. On the other hand, our interdependent trade relationship with China has also spurred intellectual property theft, and China regaining its place from being the Sick Man of Asia into reestablishing what can only be called its Imperial hegemony over East Asia, and across the world. Many thought economic liberalization would come with political and social liberalization. Instead, we now see the rise of what can only be described as a bellicose, authoritarian, single-party fascist state which offers protectionism state-sponsored companies and in which the technological advances have allowed the Chinese Communist Party to control the lives of its citizens more efficiently from establishing the Orwellian "social credit system" and concentration camps for Western Chinese Muslim Ugyhurs.

    For all intents and purposes, in exchange for decades worth of low-cost consumer goods, the United States appears to have given the Peoples Republic of China and the Chinese Communist Party the strength with which to subsume both its internal and its geopolitical rivals...the United States included. It reminds me of Aesop's Fable, The Eagle and the Arrow:

    An Eagle was soaring through the air when suddenly it heard the whizz of an Arrow, and felt itself wounded to death. Slowly it fluttered down to the earth, with its life-blood pouring out of it. Looking down upon the Arrow with which it had been pierced, it found that the shaft of the Arrow had been feathered with one of its own plumes. "Alas!" it cried, as it died,

    "We often give our enemies the means for our own destruction."

    Now, many here might say that the United States is not much better than China, and perhaps worse than China. That is not my argument for this evening. My question to everyone here is whether or not it is in the United States' interests to continue to maintain this bilateral trade agreement at the same level, or whether we are stacking the wood for our own funeral pyre by doing so. Personally, I think we should be looking at opening up and widening trading relationships with other developing nations which actually share many if not all of our democratic values, respect for rule of law and individual liberty, such as India. But I would like to hear what those who are interested in this topic have to say. Have a good night, everybody.
    Losing the market to sell in is what is going to hurt. The manufactured goods just get switched to another country like Bangladesh or India. That's not going hurt near as much as you would think. I have to go look were the numbers are and post them sometime, but its quite fascinating just how little the pain would be if any in regards to purchasing things. China is VERY replaceable in that regard. Its the market were we sell OUR goods to them that is going to hurt a bit when we lose it.

    Personally I am of the opinion we should just cut them out of our market period until such time as they decide they want to play fair. Its gona suck not being able to sell to them, but on the other hand it gives their competitors a leg up and that is good. Too bad we have market shares in their competitors markets already.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Should the United States maintain Trade with China at the same level or turn elsewhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by LosAngelesAngel View Post
    ~ United States needs to return to manufacturing our own goods as well as very high quality products for export worldwide. People can have a choice : cheap junk or high quality that will outlast cheap and perform better ( mostly electronics ) ��
    Yep

    Bringing back manufacturing has quite a few positives

    How.did.we.win WWII? We built more tanks, jeeps, ships and.weapons than any country in the world. Now we.are dependent on imports even for food.

    High quality manufacturing jobs will put Americans to work in jobs that can allow them to buy homes, pay taxes and live the American Dream. restore our middle/working class. Improve income inequality. Put money in people's pockets where they can buy quality Made in America products

    I am sure there are a lot more.positives

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    Re: Should the United States maintain Trade with China at the same level or turn elsewhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by BahamaBob View Post
    There is an island of garbage the size of Texas floating in the Pacific Ocean. Most of this originated in China. Every country should boycott China until they stop polluting our oceans and clean up their mess. This is also the main reason Chinese products are cheaper. They do not adhere to any EPA type standards. They simply dump all their trash, hazmat included into the rivers or in land fills.
    As I understand it, for some reason both China and India, the world's two largest polluters, are exempt from U.N. standards to that end because they enjoy some sort of "developing nations" status.

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    Re: Should the United States maintain Trade with China at the same level or turn elsewhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harv View Post
    As I understand it, for some reason both China and India, the world's two largest polluters, are exempt from U.N. standards to that end because they enjoy some sort of "developing nations" status.

    Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk
    That is true and they are also exempt from the Paris Accord. I don't know how that works, the two biggest polluters are exempt.

    However, this should be a consumer thing. I personally will not by a made in China product if I have any option. If others did the same China would clean up their act or the business would move elsewhere. China for the most part makes little but trinkets. Those low cost Chinese made items can be made for the same low costs in many places. We should not allow them to destroy our planet.

  5. #25
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    Re: Should the United States maintain Trade with China at the same level or turn elsewhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by BahamaBob View Post
    There is an island of garbage the size of Texas floating in the Pacific Ocean. Most of this originated in China. Every country should boycott China until they stop polluting our oceans and clean up their mess. This is also the main reason Chinese products are cheaper. They do not adhere to any EPA type standards. They simply dump all their trash, hazmat included into the rivers or in land fills.
    It's gross to even mention it but dead pigs are floating down Chinese rivers daily. Pigs die from polluted feed. Farmers dump 'em into the river. China needs the USA soybeans that are prohibited by Trump's trade war because USA soy is both nutritious to pigs and other livestock and pure. China has turned to South American nations for soybeans, Brazil in particular but it's not enough for the huge mass of pigs in China nor are the South American soybeans of the same quality. US has reduced pork exports to China besides which is the main meat in China. While everyone there eats chicken, eating chicken is a vendor stop on the sidewalk in between meals. Pork in China is what beef is in the USA.

    The geniuses in the Chinese Communist Party decided in the 1990s that they could ignore pollution while rushing headlong into unrestrained and unregulated economic development led of course by state enterprises. CCP fat asses based this decision on their perception that in the West both Europe and North America suffered insufferable pollution during the industrial revolution. This stupidity fell apart once citizens started spontaneous demonstrations against their grossly polluted air, land and waterways. In the many industrial areas to include Beijing a black sky at noon is ordinary. In the North of China where Chicago winters are the rule black smoke emanates from smokestacks when they turn on the Mao era boilers to heat buildings. Dalian City at the Yellow Sea is a modern and gleaming city engulfed by the black smoke of heating plants in the dozen big cities that arc around it.

    The problem goes back to the ten years of Party Chairman and PRC president Hu Jintao who in 2012 left office to his successor Xi Jinpingpong who pays no mind to pollution. Hu had to make a new rule that public protests against pollution had to be accepted because so many Chinese were taking to the streets in every part of developing China to demand blue skies, soil they can grow things in and rivers they can drink water from without seeing dead pigs floating past out their kitchen window.

    Maybe the worst part of the pig carcasses streaming downriver while getting mass snagged here and there is that the Party-Government has no expertise to clean it up. I met a recent twentysomething college grad in the heavily industrial South of China several years ago who was an environmental clean up technician whose English is good. He said he felt he accomplished something cleaning up wetlands of the Pearl River but that he felt alone in China doing it. He returned home in the North of China where there is virtually no cleanup. I continue to advise and assist him trying to get into a Stanford graduate program from which he will never return to China. He'll cheerfully set off for Central Kentucky University if that's what it comes down to (which I doubt). The mass of the Chinese population need to get out of China because the pollution is thorough and it is hopeless. Which is another severe discussion entirely.
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    Re: Should the United States maintain Trade with China at the same level or turn elsewhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by rickc View Post
    Yep

    Bringing back manufacturing has quite a few positives

    How.did.we.win WWII? We built more tanks, jeeps, ships and.weapons than any country in the world. Now we.are dependent on imports even for food.

    High quality manufacturing jobs will put Americans to work in jobs that can allow them to buy homes, pay taxes and live the American Dream. restore our middle/working class. Improve income inequality. Put money in people's pockets where they can buy quality Made in America products

    I am sure there are a lot more.positives

    Returning to 1955 is not one of 'em.
    Republicans / Conservatives Making America Russia Instead

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    Re: Should the United States maintain Trade with China at the same level or turn elsewhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by BahamaBob View Post
    That is true and they are also exempt from the Paris Accord. I don't know how that works, the two biggest polluters are exempt.

    However, this should be a consumer thing. I personally will not by a made in China product if I have any option. If others did the same China would clean up their act or the business would move elsewhere. China for the most part makes little but trinkets. Those low cost Chinese made items can be made for the same low costs in many places. We should not allow them to destroy our planet.
    There's also the issue that China is far and beyond the largest producer of "knock-offs," everything from "Tommy Hilfeiger" sweat shirts and "Vuitton" handbags to "Rolex" watches and everything in between, right down to the brand logos. Their intellectual property theft is so blatant that it practically has status as a "thing of legend."

    You can go practically anyplace in New York and find people selling Chinese made knock-offs, from Nigerian vendors selling them right in front of flagship stores of the same (real) brands to Chinese owned stores on Canal Street where you can practically put together an all occasion wardrobe of cheaply copied merchandise, right down to the watch and skivvies.

    NYPD pulls in a large army of multi- precinct plainclothes officers periodically and they execute a mass bust and confiscation, then the next day it's all back to "business as usual."



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    Re: Should the United States maintain Trade with China at the same level or turn elsewhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangmo View Post
    It's gross to even mention it but dead pigs are floating down Chinese rivers daily. Pigs die from polluted feed. Farmers dump 'em into the river. China needs the USA soybeans that are prohibited by Trump's trade war because USA soy is both nutritious to pigs and other livestock and pure. China has turned to South American nations for soybeans, Brazil in particular but it's not enough for the huge mass of pigs in China nor are the South American soybeans of the same quality. US has reduced pork exports to China besides which is the main meat in China. While everyone there eats chicken, eating chicken is a vendor stop on the sidewalk in between meals. Pork in China is what beef is in the USA.

    The geniuses in the Chinese Communist Party decided in the 1990s that they could ignore pollution while rushing headlong into unrestrained and unregulated economic development led of course by state enterprises. CCP fat asses based this decision on their perception that in the West both Europe and North America suffered insufferable pollution during the industrial revolution. This stupidity fell apart once citizens started spontaneous demonstrations against their grossly polluted air, land and waterways. In the many industrial areas to include Beijing a black sky at noon is ordinary. In the North of China where Chicago winters are the rule black smoke emanates from smokestacks when they turn on the Mao era boilers to heat buildings. Dalian City at the Yellow Sea is a modern and gleaming city engulfed by the black smoke of heating plants in the dozen big cities that arc around it.

    The problem goes back to the ten years of Party Chairman and PRC president Hu Jintao who in 2012 left office to his successor Xi Jinpingpong who pays no mind to pollution. Hu had to make a new rule that public protests against pollution had to be accepted because so many Chinese were taking to the streets in every part of developing China to demand blue skies, soil they can grow things in and rivers they can drink water from without seeing dead pigs floating past out their kitchen window.

    Maybe the worst part of the pig carcasses streaming downriver while getting mass snagged here and there is that the Party-Government has no expertise to clean it up. I met a recent twentysomething college grad in the heavily industrial South of China several years ago who was an environmental clean up technician whose English is good. He said he felt he accomplished something cleaning up wetlands of the Pearl River but that he felt alone in China doing it. He returned home in the North of China where there is virtually no cleanup. I continue to advise and assist him trying to get into a Stanford graduate program from which he will never return to China. He'll cheerfully set off for Central Kentucky University if that's what it comes down to (which I doubt). The mass of the Chinese population need to get out of China because the pollution is thorough and it is hopeless. Which is another severe discussion entirely.
    The unsanitary bit seems to follow them across oceans -- the Chinatowns in some large U.S. cities are cesspools of trash on seriously filthy sidewalks and air permeated with "garbagy" odors.

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    Re: Should the United States maintain Trade with China at the same level or turn elsewhere?

    Ever amazed that you can order a dozen screws or a few resistors, or most anything from China and get it delivered to your door for free?

    It's called free e-packet delivery. The Chinese government pays for shipping in China. Everything. But products coming into China are heavily taxed and regulated to pay for that free shipping.

    An automobile made in the USA will cost double or triple what it costs here. Used to be even higher, but the WTO forced China to back off some on the automobile import charges.

    Not so for other products. A t-shirt selling for $20 here would cost $80 in China, and have a stiff shipping charge.

    Traditionally, we have not retaliated to much extent; until Trump came along.

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    Re: Should the United States maintain Trade with China at the same level or turn elsewhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by Waddy View Post
    Ever amazed that you can order a dozen screws or a few resistors, or most anything from China and get it delivered to your door for free?

    It's called free e-packet delivery. The Chinese government pays for shipping in China. Everything. But products coming into China are heavily taxed and regulated to pay for that free shipping.

    An automobile made in the USA will cost double or triple what it costs here. Used to be even higher, but the WTO forced China to back off some on the automobile import charges.

    Not so for other products. A t-shirt selling for $20 here would cost $80 in China, and have a stiff shipping charge.

    Traditionally, we have not retaliated to much extent; until Trump came along.
    And President Trump has nearly six more years to fix the China trade problem, but he'll probably have it done in less than two. Should the United States maintain Trade with China at the same level or turn elsewhere?

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