Lean Question For Those Over 40

Amelia said:

Part of my ideological switch was when I finally grasped that as a Republican I was voting for policies which were hollowing out the middle class and also voting for a party which worked against a social safety net for the people it was pushing from middle class down into the ranks of the working poor.

The party which helped the CEO's of the Wal-Mart culture get richer and richer while creating jobs which paid so little that employees increasingly needed to rely on government assistance, but at the same time the party was condemning those people who needed to rely on government assistance.


This shift of my understanding was started by a pro-union Republican who got trashed (and called a RINO/liar) by people at the forum I was at in 2010. It was slowly reinforced by Elizabeth Warren, Occupy Wall Street, Obama in his better moments, and eventually Bernie Sanders.

So as the GOP made it clearer and clearer that they weren't really about fiscal responsibility -- that the Tea Party was a Trojan Horse to get politicians elected to push far right social agendas -- it made it easier for the progressive ideas I had picked up to start taking hold. And then when the GOP did things like vote against programs to help veterans, because they didn't want to give Obama a win, and THEN when they let the xenophobic Trump become their frontrunner, I left the party and no longer had the GOP label to put restrictions on the progressivism which was taking over.





So, that's one example of how someone can switch: become aware of the bad effects of the policies I had been voting for, and then as the party went further to the right it made it easier to admit to myself that I had been wrong before and needed to embrace a different path.

If the GOP had stuck with moderation and with investments in education and infrastructure and practical approaches to protect the environment, I might have stayed moderate. But GOP pragmatism has been replaced by far right extremism (and science denial) (and poor people being convinced to praise the rich people who were exploiting them and convinced to demonize those who were trying to help) and in response I have moved further to the left than I ever thought I'd be comfortable with.

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so in your own words you are saying you switched because in your view you didnt have a solid understanding of what your party was about.
so my question is if in your view the GOP was they did too many things to serve themselves, even in cases where it would have been good but didnt want to give the other team a win) are you saying you feel the you switched to the dems cause they never do that? because if not again i would have to ask why the complete switch and point out thats the part i see has part of the problem.

I chose "Dem and switched to other" because I've never been a strictly partisan type. In my early days of political awareness I tended to the hard left; both parents were ardent liberals and Democrats. JFK was also a hero of mine. I also got involved in the "Power to the people, right on!" movement in college - resulting in a long-haired hippie weirdo version of Bullseye. But over time I began to realize the when the leaders of that movement shouted "Power to the people" they actually meant "power to me, so I can give the people what I think they should want".

I moved away from that environment but stuck to democrats for a while. To my great embarrassment I voted for Jimmy Carter - twice.

About this time I began reading more widely and came to realize business people were all fork-tongued devils and capitalism wasn't the devil's brew.

As the years went on I never found that either party consistently presented a platform I could adhere to unquestioningly. So I began selecting candidates that most closely agreed with my beliefs on the issues most important to me. Sometimes that was the dem, sometimes the rep.

The leftward shift of the Dem party over the past several years has shifted my more to the right. I believe in the wisdom of the American People, NOT that of the suits in Washington or Sacramento or even San Diego city hall.


I chose "libertarian - right" as my "lean" because it was closest to my current ideology, not as an adherent to the Libertarian Party. I advocate smallest government possible and most freedom - personally and economically. Which is NOT the same as absolute freedom. On another forum I labeled myself "conservatarian with Classic Liberal influences". Was that confusing enough?

Kreton said:

I assume you want to know about Trump eh?

18-25 never voted on anything
25-2016 voted about 60% Republican - 30% Independent - 10% other.
2016 - Lib 100% and feel like **** about it for not voting Dem
Since 2016 Voting Dem until the Republican party becomes fiscally conservative and socially moderate again.

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But the Democratic party is not fiscally conservative and most in the Democratic field aren't even close. As far as fiscally conservative goes, the ONLY combination that ever works is a Democratic president with a Republican Congress to keep them in check. No other combination works.

I love your bio, Amelia, because it is a story of searching and thoughtfulness. I grew up with a very political and unorthodox older brother who was big influence on my thinking.

I think the most interesting question is how much of our political views are shaped by genetics, how much by tribalism, and how much by our information choices. But then, is the decision to listen to one type of information source (say Fox News) also a reflection of genetics and tribalism? Are Facebook and Fox news shaping people's views or are they just reflecting/amplifying previously held beliefs?

Instrumental in my thinking was a book about Tahiti, (oddly enough). It made me think about the mentality of ABUNDANCE vs the mentality of SCARCITY. People who have a mentality of scarcity tend to feel threatened by the 'other". Life is thought to be a zero sum game. People from cultures and mentality of abundance tend to be more sharing, generous, and less threatened by the 'out group'.

I bleed red. Always have. Attila the Hun could be president and I still would.

I was, until my 40s, very, very Left (Labor Party - like your Democrat Party), then, while I was attending uni and realised what the Left was really all about, I RAN to the Right (Liberal Party - like your Republican Party). The older I get (I am 66), the more conservative I become. Now, I find the Liberal Party is not conservative enough for me. By the way, I belong to no religion, so don't call me an extremist Christian.

Moderate Right said:

But the Democratic party is not fiscally conservative and most in the Democratic field aren't even close. As far as fiscally conservative goes, the ONLY combination that ever works is a Democratic president with a Republican Congress to keep them in check. No other combination works.

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No they aren't - but the Republican party is far worse right now. Trump has ballooned our deficit and debt and it is being ignored by the voters who usually vote for responsibility. We have lost it all. I don't think we've seen a more financially irresponsible president in our lifetime.

AGENT J said:

so in your own words you are saying you switched because in your view you didnt have a solid understanding of what your party was about.
so my question is if in your view the GOP was they did too many things to serve themselves, even in cases where it would have been good but didnt want to give the other team a win) are you saying you feel the you switched to the dems cause they never do that? because if not again i would have to ask why the complete switch and point out thats the part i see has part of the problem.

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I didn't switch to Dems. I switched to being progressive. I still have enough reservations about the Dems not to want to call myself one.

And I was trying to address ideology, not party membership.

Ideologically I was moderate. But as the GOP became more extreme, they both (a) made it easier for me to let go of them and embrace my burgeoning progressive side and (b) made progressivism seem more needed.

As an example, as a member of the GOP I was comfortable saying, "Unions did a good thing at one time but now they have gone too far to try to justify their continuing existence." I was comfortable enjoying the benefits of past union achievements, while maintaining that we didn't still need unions because the good union achievements had been written into the law.

If the GOP had stayed moderate, then I could have stayed on that line.

But as the GOP became more extreme they were supporting the erosion of worker protections, making it harder for me to stay GOP once I realized it, and making me think that unions were still needed after all because without unions there holding the line we could lose of a lot of what they fought for.


I didn't change to Democrat at all. I changed to progressive in response to the GOP failing to be truly conservative in the sense of maintaining what had made us great. The GOP turned to a radical direction and began working against what had given us a strong middle class, and so I had to move from moderate to progressive in an attempt to balance out the harmful policies the GOP was embracing.

Amelia said:

I didn't switch to Dems. I switched to being progressive. I still have enough reservations about the Dems not to want to call myself one.

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then by your own words, your example has absolutely nothing to do with what i was talking about and proves my point. thank you.

LadyMoonlight said:

I was, until my 40s, very, very Left (Labor Party - like your Democrat Party), then, while I was attending uni and realised what the Left was really all about, I RAN to the Right (Liberal Party - like your Republican Party). The older I get (I am 66), the more conservative I become. Now, I find the Liberal Party is not conservative enough for me. By the way, I belong to no religion, so don't call me an extremist Christian.

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Are you really so sure that your parties are analogous w those in the U.S.?

AGENT J said:

then by your own words, your example has absolutely nothing to do with what i was talking about and proves my point. thank you.

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I switched from a right-leaning moderate to fairly far left. You said you understood party changing, but didn't understand actual direction flipping. I flipped directions. I explained how the evolution happened.

So, yes, it applies.

But having tried twice to explain it to you, and you not recognizing the explanation, I will bow to the futility and move on.

Amelia said:

1.) I switched from a right-leaning moderate to fairly far left. You said you understood party changing, but didn't understand actual direction flipping. I flipped directions. I explained how the evolution happened.
2.)So, yes, it applies.
3.)But having tried twice to explain it to you, and you not recognizing the explanation, I will bow to the futility and move on.

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1.) exactly, i said the switch from right to left and you were moderate, so again your example had nothing to do with what i said
you were a moderate so no it doesnt apply :shrug:
2.) no it factually doesnt as proven above
3.) good move because your example will never apply. the explanation is clearly recognized but the fact you were a moderate by your own words is what makes it meaningless and your mistake.

AGENT J said:

1.) exactly, i said the switch from right to left and you were moderate, so again your example had nothing to do with what i said
you were a moderate so no it doesnt apply :shrug:
2.) no it factually doesnt as proven above
3.) good move because your example will never apply. the explanation is clearly recognized but the fact you were a moderate by your own words is what makes it meaningless and your mistake.

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I was on the right. I was raised in a fundamentalist religion and adopted most of its conservative teachings well into adulthood. I called myself a hardcore rightwinger. Then I got onto forums and realized what hardcore rightwingers actually are and realized that I wasn't that far right. Nevertheless I started right of center.

As the GOP became further right, I became more moderate and then progressive, both semantically because the labels had shifted, and then literally in reaction to the party changing so radically.

I apologize for not working harder to show that I checked off the boxes in your initial post to which I first responded. I explained how something that you said you didn't understand could actually happen.

I accept that you don't accept my answer, but my situation does fit the terms you originally set out.



Again ... fully embracing the futility this time ... I'll let you take whatever last word you feel you need to take and move on.

Amelia said:

1.) I was on the right.
2.) I was raised in a fundamentalist religion and adopted most of its conservative teachings well into adulthood. I called myself a hardcore rightwinger. Then I got onto forums and realized what hardcore rightwingers actually are and realized that I wasn't that far right. Nevertheless I started right of center.

As the GOP became further right, I became more moderate and then progressive, both semantically because the labels had shifted, and then literally in reaction to the party changing so radically.

I apologize for not working harder to show that I checked off the boxes in your initial post to which I first responded. I explained how something that you said you didn't understand could actually happen.

3.) I accept that you don't accept my answer, but my situation does apply to the terms you originally set out.
3.) Again ... fully embracing the futility this time ... I'll let you take whatever last word you feel you need to take and move on.

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1.) yes on the right as a MODERATE . . that negates your example from applying in any way .. this fact wont change
2.) all meaningless filler
3.) it factually doesn't no matter how much you stomp your feet and claim otherwise. Basic common sense and facts prove you wrong.
2.) sweet irony...... you should have did that when you said it the first time because now all you did is repeat your factual mistake, make your post look even more silly.

here we are in the same spot, the fact remains your example doest apply.
.

Kreton said:

No they aren't - but the Republican party is far worse right now. Trump has ballooned our deficit and debt and it is being ignored by the voters who usually vote for responsibility. We have lost it all. I don't think we've seen a more financially irresponsible president in our lifetime.

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Voting Democratic only makes things worse for fiscal responsibility. As I said, most of the Democratic field would be far worse than Trump, unless they win the presidency and Republicans take over control of both houses of Congress. Historically, that is the only situation that works for fiscal responsibility. No other combination works.

Moderate Right said:

Another thread got me wondering how many people have changed their lean or party affiliation since they were young. Please answer this poll without taking the Trump presidency into account. For purposes of this poll I want people to honestly vote based on how they felt when they were younger up to the point of 2016, BEFORE Trump won. This question is based on how you felt when you were around 20 through 20 years or more into that future. If you are younger than 40 please don't vote in the poll.

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I was an I until my 30’s. I switched to Dem then, but in local elections I usually vote Rep. I am now 75 yrs old.

Moderate Right said:

Voting Democratic only makes things worse for fiscal responsibility. As I said, most of the Democratic field would be far worse than Trump, unless they win the presidency and Republicans take over control of both houses of Congress. Historically, that is the only situation that works for fiscal responsibility. No other combination works.

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I don't think Obama/Clinton were worse than Trump. Except for the extremists like Bernie who's ideas will never work fiscally I don't think many of the candidates are any worse and are in fact better than Trump fiscally. He has been a nightmare.

Trump Says National Debt Is Not His Problem: Report | The Fiscal Times

Debt not being the problem because the can has been kicked is infuriating.

Cassandra said:

So true. But also, when I speak of "justice" vs "loyalty", I am talking about voters, not politicians. Dem voters haven't the cohesive voting block that Repubs have achieved. Dems are famous for the "circular firing squad" which is consistent with a group that dislikes "group think". Now, there exists a great deal of consternation within liberal ranks over the campus anti free speech youth phenomenon. I think it is a matter primarily of youthful insecurity. Among those of us "of a certain age", we view, with horror, the intolerance of some kids when faced with uncomfortable speech. Protest , by all means. Do not de-platform.

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Quite frankly the "anti-free-speech" allegations are some of the most overhyped, overblown problems that our society faces. Yes you have some young, impressionable white people who are being exposed to negative views for the first time in their lives, but the flip side is, they're simply not fans of speech that dehumanizes other humans, and they'd like to tell people infested with that kind of hatred where to go. There's something to be said for that.

Phys251 said:

Quite frankly the "anti-free-speech" allegations are some of the most overhyped, overblown problems that our society faces. Yes you have some young, impressionable white people who are being exposed to negative views for the first time in their lives, but the flip side is, they're simply not fans of speech that dehumanizes other humans, and they'd like to tell people infested with that kind of hatred where to go. There's something to be said for that.

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Sure. They are young. I actually blame spineless university administrations who indulge this kind of juvenile behavior. But my larger point is that Liberals/ progressives do not value "tribal" loyalty in quite the same way as today's conservatives. As far as I know, people like David Brooks and other "never Trumpers" are now cast -outs.

Cassandra said:

Sure. They are young. I actually blame spineless university administrations who indulge this kind of juvenile behavior. But my larger point is that Liberals/ progressives do not value "tribal" loyalty in quite the same way as today's conservatives. As far as I know, people like David Brooks and other "never Trumpers" are now cast -outs.

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The whole "free speech on campus" thing is a worn-out meme offered forth by people who want disgusting and vile conversation in a place where there should be the highest standards of thought and discussion, not a bunch of hostile conversation designed to intimidate and belittle certain groups of human beings.

Airyaman said:

Almost 52, voted republican all my life with the exception of one time for a local D who I went to school with and Gary Johnson (L) in 2012. I was mostly right wing in both fiscal and social matters, but shifted to social libertarian since leaving Christianity *~10 years ago). Still pretty fiscally conservative.

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I’m a few years older than you and your post describes me pretty closely, though I’ve never been a member of any religion. Or voted for Gary Johnson.

concernedpuma said:

Gosh, BB. It is amazing how closely we agree. I can't say I was disowned, but I'm sure my family whispered about my change. I didn't see it as rejecting them so much as felt it was a clear decision at the time. I don't know if you will remember, but President Nixon(Republican) said he had a plan to get us out of Viet Nam. I knew then that undeclared war was a hideous mistake and being draft eligible, I wanted us to either declare war or get out and was drawn to the Republican platform. I must say, Nixon got us out, but at the expense of honor. There were many more lives lost on both sides after the election and the result was as if we had never been there. That being said, glory on high to Viet Nam veterans!!
Regards,
CP

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Yeah, I got caught up in the draft and sent to Nam. That was after LBJ campaigned saying he would not send American Boys to fight a war Asian boys should be fighting for themselves. That was a wake up call about campaign promises. Trump is the only one in my history to try and keep his. I have always been an analytical type of person. I listen to all the promises the candidates make and determine if they are workable and if they will benefit this country. I have seen nothing from the Democrats lately that can work. They are simply catering to the parasites for votes.

I grew up in a union family with my dad being VP is his local so I started life as a democrat. Switched to being a republican after college and then became a Independent with serious libertarian leanings in my late 30s.

AGENT J said:

who said people cant change?

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I must be misunderstanding something. You're having trouble with the concept of people flipping parties altogether, but now I'm not sure why.

I don't think it's odd at all to go from one extreme, to the other, if indeed, we're actually talking about extremes. If you're center-right, but you end up changing a few stances, sticking you into the 'center-left' column, it wouldn't be out of the question for a person to then feel that the other party represents their political views more than the other one.

We are all also, much dumber versions of ourselves and twenty years old. Someone might join team 'whatever' without having any real thoughts of their own, or they might support a party based off of one issue. I've run into kids that called themselves conservatives, supported the Republican party, yet only knew about and cared about the gun issue. It's very easy to change ships when you start off with very little in your head, but learn and grow into an identity over time. It doesn't even have to be that simple for someone to change sides.

I used religion as an example, because I think that people tend to take their support for a party or idealogy to religious levels. You can't just walk in with facts and expect most people to drop what they think they now in the light of new information. No, they're going to stubbornly hold onto their own beleif system until the dam breaks.

But I'm talking about shifting idealogies causing a person to 'switch sides', which may not be what you're really talking about. I'd say that if a person switches parties without also having an idealogical shift, or after having been exposed to enough counter-arguements, then that's wierd. If a person litterally joins the other party just because of their disatisfaction with the party that's still closer to them, then that might be what we call throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I'm very disatisfied with the Democratic party, and litterally hate party leadership, but I'm not joining the Republican party just to flip them the bird. That's what being unaffiliated/independant is for.

For me, it's the despair quotient, and while the Democratic Party may be rife with things that irritate me, I have seen proof time and time again that they "get" the importance of reducing the despair quotient in people's lives.

Hardcore ultra-lefty types tend to irritate me.
Always looking for something to be offended by, feeling entitled to be MORE offended by something than the actual target person or group would be, convinced that they know better, about everything for EVERYONE, regardless of a lack of a frame of reference, given over to loosing a kind of "inner fascist" when their logic or arguments fail, and more than happy to set up that infamous "circular firing squad" and recruit outside camp followers and parasitic frenemy types.
And yet expressing anything outside their narrow political and philosophical confines is a ticket to instant condemnation.
All must be members of the ultra-left hive mind or suffer expulsion.

And speaking of frenemy types, it's the ultra-lefties who seem to attract frenemy groups like Antifa. Due to their own self-centeredness and possibly due to their youthful ignorance, many ultra left types cannot comprehend the fact that they are being used by groups like Antifa. It is only when they are finally attacked that they realize and it is often too late to take down the license number of the dump truck that just ran them over.

I'm not politically correct, not in the least. Like Bill Maher, I view PC as "the elevation of sensitivity over truth". Wise words.

So why am I not a conservative? Well, chiefly because I was never a hardcore ultra-lefty to begin with.
I do have some conservative views on many important issues, guns, immigration, foreign policy, but they are an amalgam.
For instance, I support border security, I support a basic English requirement for prospective newcomers, I support immediate justice meted out to criminal aliens and I support some aspects of a merit based immigration system.

But I also support a much more egalitarian approach to immigration.
If a person is undocumented, but they have a clean record and a clean background, have been here awhile, possess skills and a basic command of English, and they pay their taxes where applicable, have important ties to their community, in other words, if they are otherwise "a good egg", I support the notion of allowing them to pay a fine and to get in line to apply for legal residency.
We cannot allow everyone to stay but we can give them a fighting chance.
Likewise, for refugees, we can only allow in a quota, we cannot save everyone, but for those who qualify, they deserve a chance to try and earn entry.
That's just one example.

I tried giving the conservative side a chance, while living down South, and all it ever got me was screwed six ways to Sunday.
I don't think they realize how much they are regarded as out and out dickheads.
I do know a great many kind, thoughtful, moral and considerate conservatives. They are out there and I do respect them.
Unfortunately, they are also OUTNUMBERED. I found that out the hard way.

I'm a blue collar Democrat, I guess I've always been a blue collar Democrat and I likely always will be one.
I have consistently voted since 1976.
Don't throw that SJW-Antifa crap at me, especially face to face, it won't be pleasant for you.
I'm a man, a man with a broad range of outlooks on most things.