Not Ganders Not Sanders

Not Ganders Not Sanders:

Which will loose more votes for the Democratic Party?

Which are you?

Exquisitor said:

Not Ganders Not Sanders:

Which will loose more votes for the Democratic Party?

Which are you?

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What is a "Ganders"?

Rogue Valley said:

What is a "Ganders"?

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It's an allusion to Biden's hugs.

I probably shouldn't have posted this.

I'm wondering which will loose more votes.

Who would vote green instead of either candidate.

Either means you'd vote for either.

It's multiple choice so you can say where you're going.

Exquisitor said:

I probably shouldn't have posted this.

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I don't think Sanders will do much damage in the general unless he wins the primary somehow. Biden may be a little too quick to lay hands, but his politics are more moderate. Honestly, I think best bet of current crop of participants is Biden.

A lot of the hardcore left is busy making all the same mistakes that got Trump elected in the first place. Such as assuming they will win and wanting to go far left. They just aren't bothering to appeal to the moderates. They are counting on folks to listen to the narratives they buy into about Trump, but they've taken those too far and are seeming less and less credible.

I want Trump out in 2020, but like so many millions, you have to give me a reason to vote for someone. We aren't buying things like Democratic Socialism or GND and other ways to wreck things as bad as Trump could ever do.

There are probably hundreds of solid candidates in the many millions of democrats out there. Just give us someone who won't be just as bad in the opposite direction.

Keridan said:

I don't think Sanders will do much damage in the general unless he wins the primary somehow. Biden may be a little too quick to lay hands, but his politics are more moderate. Honestly, I think best bet of current crop of participants is Biden.

A lot of the hardcore left is busy making all the same mistakes that got Trump elected in the first place. Such as assuming they will win and wanting to go far left. They just aren't bothering to appeal to the moderates. They are counting on folks to listen to the narratives they buy into about Trump, but they've taken those too far and are seeming less and less credible.

I want Trump out in 2020, but like so many millions, you have to give me a reason to vote for someone. We aren't buying things like Democratic Socialism or GND and other ways to wreck things as bad as Trump could ever do.

There are probably hundreds of solid candidates in the many millions of democrats out there. Just give us someone who won't be just as bad in the opposite direction.

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No-one can be as bad as tRump in any direction but this is only because of same Bush tax cut.

Really, you can't compare tRump and Bernie.

The young disappointed Sanders voters are going to vote green, the older voters who don't like Bernie, they can vote green too and to those for whom the choice is Satan or Satan, well, welcome to the Tribulation (2020-2026 convergence).

Exquisitor said:

No-one can be as bad as tRump in any direction but this is only because of same Bush tax cut.

Really, you can't compare tRump and Bernie.

The young disappointed Sanders voters are going to vote green, the older voters who don't like Bernie, they can vote green too and to those for whom the choice is Satan or Satan, well, welcome to the Tribulation (2020-2026 convergence).

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I certainly think Trump is a horrible president. I am also overwhelmed with how much the left feels they need to twist things and push things. It's frustrating, because those of us who like to analyze and consider the evidence end up having trouble sifting through the mess to find out exactly how bad he really is.

Remember that I'm talking about moderates like myself. We are willing to vote either way as long as the candidate is the best of the choices. However, we are not going green party. If my vote is wasted anyway, I'm voting libertarian.

You do raise a good question, though. If the moderates (usually the deciding vote in elections) are being ignored by both left and right, how damaging is it to chase off the greens or very progressive voters? Most of them are like me, they would be happy to vote left if it was closer to their views. Again, a moderate dem would wipe the map.

As for Trump compared to Bernie, you are right. Bernie is honest, consistent and a good man. Trump doesn't strike me as any of those things. However, Bernie has some policies that could be as detrimental as anything Trump puts forward. I think he would put a better face on the country and we would be less entangled in scandal, but I also think he's bad for the country.

I just feel like the left, who I generally prefer, is failing bad in their approach to Trump. I think people like myself are just wanting the left to say he's a cancer, but we are too far in with too little to do about him and move on. Fighting him is useless. He's already lost all the votes he will lose and the better battle is to show how much better things could be when we replace him. Continuing to spend all this time and energy smearing him isn't helping and it's starting to hurt bad.

Oh, no, by all means keep smearing Trump. And then nominate AOC. Although, Biden can be as entertaining as Trump. Biden's comment that the best home defense is the sound of a shotgun being racked was music to my ears.

Exquisitor said:

Not Ganders Not Sanders:

Which will loose more votes for the Democratic Party?

Which are you?

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Assuming Trump is still president in 2020, which seems likely, I'll be voting for whoever is likely to defeat him in the presidential election.
I'd prefer it was Sanders, but if Biden is the other option I'll vote for him. I just think he'll lose to Trump. Unlike Sanders.

The Mark said:

Assuming Trump is still president in 2020, which seems likely, I'll be voting for whoever is likely to defeat him in the presidential election.
I'd prefer it was Sanders, but if Biden is the other option I'll vote for him. I just think he'll lose to Trump. Unlike Sanders.

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Thank you for the confirmation, I too will see my vote goes to defeat Donald Trump either way, this is the first time someone said Biden will loose but not Sanders.

I some people in their thirties who'll vote green for Biden, well they say so, but maybe when they see it's Trump or this they'll vote differently.

Biden would be very good for foreign policy. What he'll do on the home front I don't know. I want to see them in debate. Presence in debates should be based on Astrology.

I am of the opinion; Both good, both win, both may loose.

Anything else is just hyped up bias and if I'm going to hype up some bias I'm going to hype up something that serves me (sacrifice, advanced programing and chaos).

Bush was actually pretty good, because he pulled out the tenth horn of the beast, too bad the only balm for it is the balm of bullets.

He screwed up by not having troop surge right away and by not making them behave for their oil.

Chaos: that which wasn't there the first time; the unprecedented.

The Mark said:

Assuming Trump is still president in 2020, which seems likely, I'll be voting for whoever is likely to defeat him in the presidential election.
I'd prefer it was Sanders, but if Biden is the other option I'll vote for him. I just think he'll lose to Trump. Unlike Sanders.

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Biden and Sanders are tied astrologically at seven, two above Trump and Tulsi.

Three others beat them McAuliffe 9, Brown 11 and Landrieu and Ivanka at 14.

Clinton was a -1, Mayor Pete -6, Harris -11 etc.

Predicting US Presidential elections

Trump has the new moon before the election advantage and will not break the model to beat someone with a higher score.

Hearing this video and a quick glance at 2016 make me a firm believer in this model.

I was helping Clinton and If I am helping her, so are others, but this all came to naught as we were unprepared for the Astrological reset as the Christian Mike Pence who didn't preach to Un and like all conservative Christians has his head up his *** to all but himself, became attractive to the Resonant Mind.

Keridan said:

I certainly think Trump is a horrible president. I am also overwhelmed with how much the left feels they need to twist things and push things. It's frustrating, because those of us who like to analyze and consider the evidence end up having trouble sifting through the mess to find out exactly how bad he really is.

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Oh I could talk about this at length. The Rabid Right finalized their divorce with evidence in the early 2000s. But the Rabid Left began the same divorce proceedings in 2016. Problem is for the Rabid Left, they're not yet in position to control the base, and they sure haven't done much at the ballot box except for primary out a few moderate Democrats.

Progressives need to understand that if the Democratic candidate runs on Medicare For All with the complete abolition of private health insurance, they will lose the election. All the evidence is there that a majority of American voters do not want the option of private health insurance taken away from them, even with all of PHI's flaws. What they need to do instead is shore up Obamacare and resurrect the public option. Options are a good thing!

Phys251 said:

Oh I could talk about this at length. The Rabid Right finalized their divorce with evidence in the early 2000s. But the Rabid Left began the same divorce proceedings in 2016. Problem is for the Rabid Left, they're not yet in position to control the base, and they sure haven't done much at the ballot box except for primary out a few moderate Democrats.

Progressives need to understand that if the Democratic candidate runs on Medicare For All with the complete abolition of private health insurance, they will lose the election. All the evidence is there that a majority of American voters do not want the option of private health insurance taken away from them, even with all of PHI's flaws. What they need to do instead is shore up Obamacare and resurrect the public option. Options are a good thing!

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There is pretty much nothing I disagree with in your post. You aren't quite on the same point I am, but we are close and you are right about what you say.

Unfortunately, main stream politics is handled by the extremists on both sides. There are real compromises to be reached that could really benefit the larger population. I believe in choices and competition and it's possible to offer both and help take care of those who need a boost. Unfortunately, we tend to be faced with either the far right or left and neither truly helps the general population in the best way.

I personally believe that both parties are too extreme (no matter how they got there) to properly serve us. I dream of us getting rid of the EC and the two party system.

Imagine if we had a system that allowed all people to be covered by healthcare while still allowing competition to keep us at the forefront of breakthroughs and care. What if our school system was still free to all, but they had to compete against each other to be the best while spending their money wisely?

I know I'm off your point a bit, but I just want so badly to get rid of poisons like Trump without us going too far the other way.

Keridan said:

There is pretty much nothing I disagree with in your post. You aren't quite on the same point I am, but we are close and you are right about what you say.

Unfortunately, main stream politics is handled by the extremists on both sides. There are real compromises to be reached that could really benefit the larger population. I believe in choices and competition and it's possible to offer both and help take care of those who need a boost. Unfortunately, we tend to be faced with either the far right or left and neither truly helps the general population in the best way.

I personally believe that both parties are too extreme (no matter how they got there) to properly serve us. I dream of us getting rid of the EC and the two party system.

Imagine if we had a system that allowed all people to be covered by healthcare while still allowing competition to keep us at the forefront of breakthroughs and care. What if our school system was still free to all, but they had to compete against each other to be the best while spending their money wisely?

I know I'm off your point a bit, but I just want so badly to get rid of poisons like Trump without us going too far the other way.

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President Reagan, who would never get out of the primaries today as being too "moderate," once said that if he could get 70-80% of what he wanted, he'd take that and try to get the rest in the future. Seems far more effective than a president or candidate of any party going for an all-or-nothing approach. He understood the concept of political capital, something that neither end of our political spectrum comprehends. They want all the things and they want them right now, while failing to understand that annihilating Obamacare or annihilating private health insurance would consume a massive amount of political capital. Just look how Obamacare repeal went down in flames a couple years ago even though Republicans had a trifecta in Washington. And now they don't.

Even as a pretty strong Democrat I want third parties to be more viable. Keeps the two major parties from stagnating or going too crazy. Maine may have just opened the door a crack with their institution of instant-runoff voting, which can let people safely vote for their favorite third-party candidates without wasting their vote.

Phys251 said:

President Reagan, who would never get out of the primaries today as being too "moderate," once said that if he could get 70-80% of what he wanted, he'd take that and try to get the rest in the future. Seems far more effective than a president or candidate of any party going for an all-or-nothing approach. He understood the concept of political capital, something that neither end of our political spectrum comprehends. They want all the things and they want them right now, while failing to understand that annihilating Obamacare or annihilating private health insurance would consume a massive amount of political capital. Just look how Obamacare repeal went down in flames a couple years ago even though Republicans had a trifecta in Washington. And now they don't.

Even as a pretty strong Democrat I want third parties to be more viable. Keeps the two major parties from stagnating or going too crazy. Maine may have just opened the door a crack with their institution of instant-runoff voting, which can let people safely vote for their favorite third-party candidates without wasting their vote.

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I think you and I are on pretty much the same page for this one. I miss the days of Reagan and even Bill Clinton. Somewhere in Bush Jr's run, all semblance of working together just went to hell. The major parties have given up all hope of working together and have run to the far end of their parties.

I think that's why the third parties could help. Folks wouldn't have to throw everything into one party just because their most important item or two was represented by that party even if they disagree with everything else.

Phys251 said:

President Reagan, who would never get out of the primaries today as being too "moderate," once said that if he could get 70-80% of what he wanted, he'd take that and try to get the rest in the future. Seems far more effective than a president or candidate of any party going for an all-or-nothing approach. He understood the concept of political capital, something that neither end of our political spectrum comprehends. They want all the things and they want them right now, while failing to understand that annihilating Obamacare or annihilating private health insurance would consume a massive amount of political capital. Just look how Obamacare repeal went down in flames a couple years ago even though Republicans had a trifecta in Washington. And now they don't.

Even as a pretty strong Democrat I want third parties to be more viable. Keeps the two major parties from stagnating or going too crazy. Maine may have just opened the door a crack with their institution of instant-runoff voting, which can let people safely vote for their favorite third-party candidates without wasting their vote.

Click to expand...

Do you think Trump is a far right president? I think he is actually pretty much a centralist/moderate.
Do you think, in the current democratic/progressive/socialist climate, that either Bill Clinton or Obama would be have a chance to win? I don't...the liberals have swung to far to the left that even Obama and Clinton are a hard time recognizing their own party.
The problem with the current left is they are split between moderate democrats, progressives and the Socialist wings of the party....if it continues on that split path they have little chance of winning.

Keridan said:

I think you and I are on pretty much the same page for this one. I miss the days of Reagan and even Bill Clinton. Somewhere in Bush Jr's run, all semblance of working together just went to hell. The major parties have given up all hope of working together and have run to the far end of their parties.

I think that's why the third parties could help. Folks wouldn't have to throw everything into one party just because their most important item or two was represented by that party even if they disagree with everything else.

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I don't believe the right has swung to the far right. I believe it actually has moved to a more centralist position. There is always been a far right but I also don't believe it hasn't grown much.
Unlike the left which has moved to the far dark side with the socialist/progressives leading the way with their outlandish platforms of more government/control in our lives.

antiquity said:

I don't believe the right has swung to the far right. I believe it actually has moved to a more centralist position. There is always been a far right but I also don't believe it hasn't grown much.
Unlike the left which has moved to the far dark side with the socialist/progressives leading the way with their outlandish platforms of more government/control in our lives.

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I guess I feel like this depends on what parts of the right you focus on. Certainly they haven't moved right on fiscal management or minimizing government. On the other hand, they have done their level best to make sure nothing left of center ever makes progress. They have become more insular and unwilling to work with anyone outside the party.

They have been forced to ease up on social issues, like gay marriage and a few other items that were never popular. Otherwise they faced near extinction.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I'm not sure we agree on how the movement has progressed. I just don't see any movement that isn't digging further into their own party.

antiquity said:

Do you think Trump is a far right president? I think he is actually pretty much a centralist/moderate.

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Please, he's off the charts to the right.

Do you think, in the current democratic/progressive/socialist climate, that either Bill Clinton or Obama would be have a chance to win? I don't...the liberals have swung to far to the left that even Obama and Clinton are a hard time recognizing their own party.
The problem with the current left is they are split between moderate democrats, progressives and the Socialist wings of the party....if it continues on that split path they have little chance of winning.

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We will see. But in 2016 there was a hubris within the Democratic base that Hillary would just win and tRump would just lose. They won't make the same mistake twice.

In 2016, I was all in for Sanders.

This time I prefer Biden.

But I'll vote for whomever the Democrats nominate.

Phys251 said:

Please, he's off the charts to the right.

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Which policies has he implemented that you think he is far right?

We will see. But in 2016 there was a hubris within the Democratic base that Hillary would just win and tRump would just lose. They won't make the same mistake twice.

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With the current list of democrats running with their outlandish proposals I see a struggle within the party between moderate democrats, progressives and the socialist wing. Not a winning combination.

Next POTUS!

Keridan said:

I guess I feel like this depends on what parts of the right you focus on. Certainly they haven't moved right on fiscal management or minimizing government. On the other hand, they have done their level best to make sure nothing left of center ever makes progress. They have become more insular and unwilling to work with anyone outside the party.

They have been forced to ease up on social issues, like gay marriage and a few other items that were never popular. Otherwise they faced near extinction.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I'm not sure we agree on how the movement has progressed. I just don't see any movement that isn't digging further into their own party.

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Not sure if you believe that part highlighted....eliminating regulations and cuts to departments seems like moving to a more fiscal government.

antiquity said:

Not sure if you believe that part highlighted....eliminating regulations and cuts to departments seems like moving to a more fiscal government.

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I do believe it as it is something important to me. I'm speaking specifically of programs to eliminate or streamline government spending. Removing regulations isn't always a good thing, but can be. Not sure which departments you are referring to when you speak of cuts, though.

antiquity said:

Which policies has he implemented that you think he is far right?

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That's not even a serious question. That's like asking me to prove that a lake is made of water.

With the current list of democrats running with their outlandish proposals I see a struggle within the party between moderate democrats, progressives and the socialist wing. Not a winning combination.

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It's going to depend on whether the progressives go with a my-way-or-the-highway attitude again. Some of them have realized that that would be a bad idea. Some have not.