What is Your IQ?

American said:

Possibly since it's a rather new diagnosis. My son has it.

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My son was diagnosed with it, but later they said it was a misdiagnosis.
I don't know. I think I might have it.
It is a very newly discovered syndrome, comparatively speaking.

Vader said:

The lower half of society has the opposite problem in that regard. Parents are often working two or more jobs just to make ends meet. As a result, they are not home to intrude in their children's relationships. Thier children tend to find affection and kindship among thier peers to fill the void... even when they shouldn't.

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I'd love to see some support for this claim. In my experience it's been the exact opposite - poor people tend to work far less than rich people.

In the summer of 2003, on Faux, also known as the “Fox Television Network”, they ran a IQ test called “TEST THE NATION”;I took the test for what it is worth scored a 126.

Also, Gunny, you seem to have forgot that the CORPS issued you a GCT test (general classification test),at least they used to in the” OLD CORPS”. My understanding at the time was that score was about ten points above the normal IQ test, scored 136 on that; still ended up in artillery as a gun pouge,MOS 0811.

RightinNYC said:

I'd love to see some support for this claim. In my experience it's been the exact opposite - poor people tend to work far less than rich people.

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I don't know about that. Rich people have people clean their homes, mow their yard, fix/maintain their car, raise their kids, and perform home improvement. Yes, they may spend more time at the office, but a lot of their duties have been outsourced to allow this.

independent_thinker2002 said:

I don't know about that. Rich people have people clean their homes, mow their yard, fix/maintain their car, raise their kids, and perform home improvement. Yes, they may spend more time at the office, but a lot of their duties have been outsourced to allow this.

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It depends on the job. An uncle of mine is advocate and he works around 60 hours/week, while if you sell hamburgers at McDonald it's no more than 35 hours/week

donc said:

In the summer of 2003, on Faux, also known as the “Fox Television Network”, they ran a IQ test called “TEST THE NATION”;I took the test for what it is worth scored a 126.

Also, Gunny, you seem to have forgot that the CORPS issued you a GCT test (general classification test),at least they used to in the” OLD CORPS”. My understanding at the time was that score was about ten points above the normal IQ test, scored 136 on that; still ended up in artillery as a gun pouge,MOS 0811.

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The GCT of the 60's maxed out at 70...
They took a combination of the GCT/ARI as a standard to determine what schools you were eligible for. The max would be 140. I scored 139, but that is skewed. I took the tests first in 63 joining the reserves, again in 64 converting to regular navy, and once more in 64 because the Navy lost the second test scores. IIRC, my first test was about 10 points lower.
Anyone with a 136 should have been offered some high tech career path. BUt the military has its own ways of being stupid. I met an SK, storekeeper, who had 3 years of college toward a computer science degree prior to his joining the navy. What a waste....

UtahBill said:

The GCT of the 60's maxed out at 70...
They took a combination of the GCT/ARI as a standard to determine what schools you were eligible for. The max would be 140. I scored 139, but that is skewed. I took the tests first in 63 joining the reserves, again in 64 converting to regular navy, and once more in 64 because the Navy lost the second test scores. IIRC, my first test was about 10 points lower.
Anyone with a 136 should have been offered some high tech career path. BUt the military has its own ways of being stupid. I met an SK, storekeeper, who had 3 years of college toward a computer science degree prior to his joining the navy. What a waste....

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My first mos was air traffic controller, don’t remember the number because it was changed so fast, evidently operation starlight must have had something to do with that.

RightinNYC said:

I'd love to see some support for this claim. In my experience it's been the exact opposite - poor people tend to work far less than rich people.

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No way. There is a class of drug addicts who rely on welfare and couch surfing the daylight away. But when you're talking about working people that support themselves I'd wager the exact opposites is true. Lower paying entry level jobs tend to come with crappier hours, more physical labor, etc. As you go up the ladder, earn more, and hold positions of higher authority you should be working less hard unless you have piss poor negotiating skills.

talloulou said:

No way. There is a class of drug addicts who rely on welfare and couch surfing the daylight away. But when you're talking about working people that support themselves I'd wager the exact opposites is true. Lower paying entry level jobs tend to come with crappier hours, more physical labor, etc. As you go up the ladder, earn more, and hold positions of higher authority you should be working less hard unless you have piss poor negotiating skills.

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It just really depends. People that make more money, tend to have more flexible hours, but may work just as much as an unskilled laborer. But their work generally won't be physical in nature.

1069 said:

Yeah. I was in a juvenile psychiatric facility.

Many poor people and minorities only take IQ tests in prison, or in preparation for trial. I also consider this "under duress", and I believe it effects the test's efficacy, and therefore the reliability of the statistics.

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I imagine that the full use of your intellectual abilities isn't utilized when you aren't under duress. That is, I'd rather have a lower IQ than average when I'm not stressed while having a higher IQ than average when under stress.

Ones IQ under duress is probably the most practical value to record. However, how equal duress can be administered and quantified is likely the barrier to ever establishing consistency.

WI Crippler said:

It just really depends. People that make more money, tend to have more flexible hours, but may work just as much as an unskilled laborer. But their work generally won't be physical in nature.

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I think if you get rid of all the drug addicts and mentally ill on the poor side and you get rid of all the super rich heirs like Paris Hilton at the opposite end of the spectrum you will find that poor people almost always work harder than rich people for two reasons.

First hard working people tend to make more as they move up the ladder. They gain higher level positions after a time involving supervising or management in most fields. With most careers the guy who has been around the longest should be working the least hard while making the most money.

Secondly many poor people are at a disadvantage in that even if they are hard working some of them deal with blocks that stand in the way of their upward mobility. The vast majority of high school graduates are piss poor, not counting their families money. Their ability to take off and succeed on their own may be greatly advantaged or disadvantaged depending on where they come from. If you come from a family where nobody attended college it's likely that you will be less motivated to obtain a higher education, less financially equipped to do so, and have less support surrounding you than someone who comes from a family where most everyone goes to college. You might be hardworking but already your ability to continually move upwards is thwarted by lack of education and lack of a "network" that college attendees have. Network isn't something that should be underestimated either. The wealthier your family is the more likely you are to run in wealthier circles and this network is a great advantage that poor people simply don't have.

So when discussing hard working people only it seems clear to me that poor folks are definitely working harder than rich folks because most people have upward mobility and don't stay poor working their fingers to the bone longterm unless there are blocks in the way. Those who remain poor despite years of hard hard work are fighting against disadvantages that others just don't have. An illegal alien would be a perfect example. No matter how hard they work they have no real mobility on the "ladder" due to constraints regarding their non-citizenship status.

If you're rich and you are genuinely working harder than some illegal alien who is poor and has two to three jobs (all manual labor) to support his family then clearly you're doing something wrong and you need your head examined.

talloulou said:

No way. There is a class of drug addicts who rely on welfare and couch surfing the daylight away. But when you're talking about working people that support themselves I'd wager the exact opposites is true. Lower paying entry level jobs tend to come with crappier hours, more physical labor, etc. As you go up the ladder, earn more, and hold positions of higher authority you should be working less hard unless you have piss poor negotiating skills.

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Authority is not quite the word I would use. Responsibility sounds better to what I think the bosses should be doing..
Regular job, with step-up-the-ladder promotions, the management levels should be working less hard physically, and taking on more responsibility to see that the work gets done. I have seen some good workers get into lower management, and retire in place. They not only do less work, but they take less responsibility.
Also, factor in whether or not you are working a regular job, or you are self employed. I would say that the self employed probably work harder than most, if they want to get rich, or stay rich....

Well I certainly don't mean to imply that rich folks don't work hard. I'm just saying as you move up the ladder your terms should improve in relation to what you put in vs. what you get in return. Your desperation and willingness to do a lot in exchange for a little should diminish as you advance in your career. As long as you continue to be upwardly mobile this will remain true. If something blocks your upward mobility then and only then should you even think of accepting terms where suddenly you are doing more for less.

Does that make sense?

Many if not most moderately rich folks went through periods in their life where they were incredibly hard working, stressed, etc. But if they remained rich their entire careers then you have to assume that they had to work less and less hard the higher up the ladder they went. At a certain point just having money makes you money. Whereas a hard working but poor person apparently got stuck and remained that way indefinitely in order to have been poor the entirety of their career. Most hardworking people will not remain stagnant on the ladder and they will not remain poor forever. So for the ones that do, the genuinely hard working poor, they are akin to indentured servants due to some factor and they most definitely spend their lives working harder for less.

talloulou said:

No way. There is a class of drug addicts who rely on welfare and couch surfing the daylight away. But when you're talking about working people that support themselves I'd wager the exact opposites is true. Lower paying entry level jobs tend to come with crappier hours, more physical labor, etc. As you go up the ladder, earn more, and hold positions of higher authority you should be working less hard unless you have piss poor negotiating skills.

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I would bet that if you look at the average person with an income of $150k, they probably work 50+ hours a week. I would also bet that if you look at the average person with an income of $20k, they probably work 30-40 hours/week.

Of course there are people who work 60 hours a week at two jobs to support their families. But there are just as many if not more people who work 60+ hours at their one job in order to make their salary.

RightinNYC said:

I would bet that if you look at the average person with an income of $150k, they probably work 50+ hours a week. I would also bet that if you look at the average person with an income of $20k, they probably work 30-40 hours/week.

Of course there are people who work 60 hours a week at two jobs to support their families. But there are just as many if not more people who work 60+ hours at their one job in order to make their salary.

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"Hard Work" is not measured in hours. I know pleanty of dudes who work 50+ hours a week making 150K while going golfing with clients. etc.

They would NEVER trade places with a 20K per year masonry laborer working 40 hours a week of back-breaking labor.

Trust me, I've done both. I can worj 80+ hours a week now and stil do less that a quarter tf the work I did as a non-union constructin worker in college.

Y'all still talking about IQ?

Tucker Case said:

"Hard Work" is not measured in hours.

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I didn't say "hard work," as that's a completely unquantifiable statistic. I said "more hours"

I know pleanty of dudes who work 50+ hours a week making 150K while going golfing with clients. etc.

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Funny, cause I don't know a single one. The only people I know golfing with clients are doing so in addition to their 50 or 60 hour work weeks.

They would NEVER trade places with a 20K per year masonry laborer working 40 hours a week of back-breaking labor.

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Uh...of course not. One is making 20K and the other is making 150K - why would you trade?

Trust me, I've done both. I can worj 80+ hours a week now and stil do less that a quarter tf the work I did as a non-union constructin worker in college.

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And I presume that's because the skills that you've cultivated now are far more useful than the skills you had when you were a construction worker. The fact that you find the work to be "easier" has no bearing on whether you're working more.

I don't know a single person (other than a 75+ year old dude I used to work for) who makes a large salary without working at least 50 hour weeks.

1069 said:

Yeah. I was in a juvenile psychiatric facility.

Many poor people and minorities only take IQ tests in prison, or in preparation for trial. I also consider this "under duress", and I believe it effects the test's efficacy, and therefore the reliability of the statistics.

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Well, that certainly is duress IMO too, and I did not consider that possibility either.

I still maintain that it's harder to have others busting your balls vs. busting your balls in pursuit of your own goals. It's all about upward mobility and the folks that have nowhere to go work the hardest for little reward. People making $150,000 a year are reaping the benefits of their labor. Hardworking folks making less than $30,000 a year with no light at the end of the tunnel are working their arses off in survival mode. They're not working hard to reap greater rewards, they're working to literally put food on the table and there's no comparison between them and the rich and there's no question that their paycheck to paycheck survival mode is harder. Luckily few are "stuck" in such a position long term. But for those who are for whatever reason it's obscene to even suggest rich folks are working harder.

talloulou said:

I still maintain that it's harder to have others busting your balls vs. busting your balls in pursuit of your own goals. It's all about upward mobility and the folks that have nowhere to go work the hardest for little reward. People making $150,000 a year are reaping the benefits of their labor. Hardworking folks making less than $30,000 a year with no light at the end of the tunnel are working their arses off in survival mode. They're not working hard to reap greater rewards, they're working to literally put food on the table and there's no comparison between them and the rich and there's no question that their paycheck to paycheck survival mode is harder. Luckily few are "stuck" in such a position long term. But for those who are for whatever reason it's obscene to even suggest rich folks are working harder.

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There's a substantial difference between working hard and working smart. Working hard means you will likely do well at performing your duties. I see working smart as doing things above and beyond expected duties. People at the top are paid more because for one thing they are usually better at adapting to, finding, or creating change which is sometimes the only job for upper execs. There is significant diminishing returns when developing into an expert burger flipper. :lol:

scourge99 said:

There's a substantial difference between working hard and working smart. Working hard means you will likely do well at performing your duties. I see working smart as doing things above and beyond expected duties. People at the top are paid more because for one thing they are usually better at adapting to, finding, or creating change which is sometimes the only job for upper execs. There is significant diminishing returns when developing into an expert burger flipper. :lol:

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There are folks though who cannot get ahead regardless of how hard they work but they work hard anyway knowing that while they have blocks in their way their children won't. Illegal immigrants are perfect examples of this. Many of them work multiple jobs and with their illegal status they will never break free of the daily grind. They will always have to work hard to survive in the US without any hope of moving up because of the blocks in their way. They do it though because their kids who are born here will not have the same problems.

talloulou said:

There are folks though who cannot get ahead regardless of how hard they work

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The only legitimate reasons I can think of are handicaps and ignorance. Apathy, illegal activity, and laziness are not valid excuses why one can't learn.

but they work hard anyway knowing that while they have blocks in their way their children won't. Illegal immigrants are perfect examples of this. Many of them work multiple jobs and with their illegal status they will never break free of the daily grind. They will always have to work hard to survive in the US without any hope of moving up because of the blocks in their way. They do it though because their kids who are born here will not have the same problems.

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You have quite a romantic view of poverty. I don't think I'd go as far as to say that most people in poverty work hard out of such altruistic preoccupations.

scourge99 said:

The only legitimate reasons I can think of are handicaps and ignorance. Apathy, illegal activity, and laziness are not valid excuses why one can't learn.

You have quite a romantic view of poverty. I don't think I'd go as far as to say that most people in poverty work hard out of such altruistic preoccupations.

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We were speaking about hard workers. Do poor hardworking people have to work harder than rich hardworking people? My answer is and remains, "Yes." I never said most people in poverty work hard. And as for people, "who can't learn" I have no clue what you're talking about and it seems off topic. But the entire thread is off topic so whatever.

talloulou said:

We were speaking about hard workers. Do poor hardworking people have to work harder than rich hardworking people? My answer is and remains, "Yes."

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Poor people tend to work more physically intensive jobs, yes. They may have to work more jobs because one job isn't sufficient income, yes.

If your criteria for hardwork is only based on time at work and physical exertion then yes poor people work harder.

However, I believe stress, responsibility, and the type of work are also factors thus "hardwork" is hard to compare for such different jobs.

I never said most people in poverty work hard. And as for people, "who can't learn" I have no clue what you're talking about and it seems off topic.

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you were talking about how poor immigrants can never make themselves into anything because of their illegal status. I was merely pointing out that such isn't an excuse along with other invalid excuses.

scourge99 said:

If your criteria for hardwork is only based on time at work and physical exertion then yes poor people work harder.

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My criteria is how much you get back for what you put in. How much rewards do you reap for your efforts?

you were talking about how poor immigrants can never make themselves into anything because of their illegal status. I was merely pointing out that such isn't an excuse along with other invalid excuses.

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It's not an excuse, it's a reality. And if I lived in TJ I'd haul my arse across the border too. To many of them it's worth what they go through to insure their children's future. I can empathize with that.