View Poll Results: Are "Legitimate" Breeders also ethical?

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  • Ethical for any breed

    4 23.53%
  • Ethical only for breeds that are not impacted

    2 11.76%
  • Unethical for breeds impacted

    7 41.18%
  • Unethical for all breeds knowing the issues

    4 23.53%
  • No opinion

    1 5.88%
  • Shut up and give me a Frenchie.

    0 0%
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Thread: "Legitimate" Breeders... Ethical or not?

  1. #21
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    Re: "Legitimate" Breeders... Ethical or not?

    There are many legitimate dog breeders in the country. There are more that are not legitimate. Legitimacy is not determined by the AKC standard or the unfortunate reality that certain breeds are susceptible to health or other issues.

    A legitimate breeder does not ship puppies. A legitimate breeder does not sell to pet stores. A legitimate breeder does not overbreed the females. A legitimate breeder does not inbreed too closely in the bloodlines. A legitimate breeder breeds for the betterment of the breed.

    Dachshunds are susceptible to IVDD and other back issues. Breeding them does not make you a bad breeder. Breeding them indiscriminately, not understanding how to minimize the susceptibility by understanding the bloodlines, and so on is what makes a bad breeder.
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    Re: "Legitimate" Breeders... Ethical or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fledermaus View Post
    In the last couple of days there has been discussion about what makes a "legitimate" breeder of dogs.

    The same legitimate breeders that bring us the French Bulldog. An animal that cannot even breed normally (due to hindquarters issues). It also has to be cut out of its mother rather than natural birth. A number of other breeds have been bred so they no longer whelp normally. Most bulldogs for examples. Even certain Chihuahuas. Pugs have been breed for the flat face and bug eyes. Both prone to infection and other issues. The dogs have often been inbred for generations... Leading to all kinds of issues. Among them cancer, respiratory diseases, blindness, and heart problems.

    With its sweet and loving disposition, combined with silky fur and elegantly droopy ears, the Cavalier King Charles spaniel is a popular breed—with families paying hundreds, sometimes thousands, of dollars per puppy. Unfortunately, though, it is almost certain that their pet will also come with genetic disorders.

    By age five, for example, half of all Cavaliers will develop mitral valve disease, a serious heart condition that leaves the dogs susceptible to premature death. By the same age, up to 70 percent will suffer from canine syringomyelia, a debilitating neurological disorder in which the brain is too large for the skull, causing severe pain in the neck and shoulders, along with damage to parts of the dog’s spinal cord. And although Cavaliers may be a particularly obvious case of purebreds with problems, they aren’t alone. Most purebred dogs today are at a high risk for numerous inherited diseases. Why did this happen—and what can be done about it?


    https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...rst-in-health/



    So I ask... Are "Legitimate" breeders of the genetic abominations also ethical?
    I think what they are talking about is puppy mills where a breeder will have dozens if not hundreds of dogs, and those dogs are kept in small cages their entire lives, standing in their own filth, and getting little human interaction. That unfortunately is the source of a lot of pet store dogs.

    Breeding dogs that tend to have a lot of a lot of health issues like English Bulldogs is an entirely different discussion.
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  3. #23
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    Re: "Legitimate" Breeders... Ethical or not?

    This has never affected me and never will.

    I get my dogs when they come to my house on their own sick and I take them in.

    All of my dogs are Heinz 57 breeds, and I like it that way.

  4. #24
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    Re: "Legitimate" Breeders... Ethical or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    I think what they are talking about is puppy mills where a breeder will have dozens if not hundreds of dogs, and those dogs are kept in small cages their entire lives, standing in their own filth, and getting little human interaction. That unfortunately is the source of a lot of pet store dogs.

    Breeding dogs that tend to have a lot of a lot of health issues like English Bulldogs is an entirely different discussion.
    No, they are talking about breeders. To include "Legitimate" breeders. "Legitimate" breeders are the ones pushing pure bred (inbred) breeds.
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  5. #25
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    Re: "Legitimate" Breeders... Ethical or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    There are many legitimate dog breeders in the country. There are more that are not legitimate. Legitimacy is not determined by the AKC standard or the unfortunate reality that certain breeds are susceptible to health or other issues.

    A legitimate breeder does not ship puppies. A legitimate breeder does not sell to pet stores. A legitimate breeder does not overbreed the females. A legitimate breeder does not inbreed too closely in the bloodlines. A legitimate breeder breeds for the betterment of the breed.

    Dachshunds are susceptible to IVDD and other back issues. Breeding them does not make you a bad breeder. Breeding them indiscriminately, not understanding how to minimize the susceptibility by understanding the bloodlines, and so on is what makes a bad breeder.
    Bolded... I am speaking only about breeding infirmity into various breeds. And yes, "Legitimate" breeders do so. Where do you think these AKC show winners come from?

    As to Dachshunds... They have been intentionally bred to the current state... See post #16. Breeding them to promote infirmity does make you a bad breeder.
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    Re: "Legitimate" Breeders... Ethical or not?

    When breeders focus on appearance over health or utility, it becomes a vanity breed. Many, many dogs born to so-called "reputable breeders" will have a poorer quality of life than the majority of those born to puppy mills just because someone thinks they look cute. Yes, it is a problem.

  7. #27
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    Re: "Legitimate" Breeders... Ethical or not?

    I think it starts with the owners, don't buy any of these impacted animals and the breeding issues will hopefully start dropping off by breeding with similar but healthy animals with no genetic issues so that it may solve the genetic issues now existing for all of those animals.

    In other words, people, don't buy these genetic problem dogs.
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    Re: "Legitimate" Breeders... Ethical or not?

    Dog breeding in this country is an un-regulated mess. AKC papers mean next to nothing. If two dogs have "papers" they can, and are, bred regardless of whether they have suitable or compatible traits. Regardless of health history. The vast majority of "breeders" have no goals nor do they understand what they are producing. This has lead to the ruination of many great dog breeds in this country.

    The AKC is worthless. What's needed is an organization for each breed that requires healthy dogs, bred for specific goals, and not just looks. That will never happen, as American breeders will never be told how to conduct their breeding, nor could the government enforce massive regulation if they could get it passed into law. So what we're left with is a "breed anything to anything" mentality.

    And more government regulation is not the answer. Sure, it's possible, as California has done, to prohibit dogs from being sold in pet stores. But the vast majority of dog sales are private sales. This would be impossible to regulate. The only effective solution is for BUYERS to become more educated and learn to ask the right questions. That's how supply and demand works.

  9. #29
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    Re: "Legitimate" Breeders... Ethical or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    I think it starts with the owners, don't buy any of these impacted animals and the breeding issues will hopefully start dropping off by breeding with similar but healthy animals with no genetic issues so that it may solve the genetic issues now existing for all of those animals.

    In other words, people, don't buy these genetic problem dogs.
    I really was ignorant of the extent of damage the breeding program has caused until the earlier Poll about the California law banning sales of "puppy mill" dogs.

    My eyes were really opened once I read into it. And I am a dog owner for over half a century. Then again the only papers my dogs ever had were for potty training.
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    Re: "Legitimate" Breeders... Ethical or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fledermaus View Post
    In the last couple of days there has been discussion about what makes a "legitimate" breeder of dogs.

    The same legitimate breeders that bring us the French Bulldog. An animal that cannot even breed normally (due to hindquarters issues). It also has to be cut out of its mother rather than natural birth. A number of other breeds have been bred so they no longer whelp normally. Most bulldogs for examples. Even certain Chihuahuas. Pugs have been breed for the flat face and bug eyes. Both prone to infection and other issues. The dogs have often been inbred for generations... Leading to all kinds of issues. Among them cancer, respiratory diseases, blindness, and heart problems.

    With its sweet and loving disposition, combined with silky fur and elegantly droopy ears, the Cavalier King Charles spaniel is a popular breed—with families paying hundreds, sometimes thousands, of dollars per puppy. Unfortunately, though, it is almost certain that their pet will also come with genetic disorders.

    By age five, for example, half of all Cavaliers will develop mitral valve disease, a serious heart condition that leaves the dogs susceptible to premature death. By the same age, up to 70 percent will suffer from canine syringomyelia, a debilitating neurological disorder in which the brain is too large for the skull, causing severe pain in the neck and shoulders, along with damage to parts of the dog’s spinal cord. And although Cavaliers may be a particularly obvious case of purebreds with problems, they aren’t alone. Most purebred dogs today are at a high risk for numerous inherited diseases. Why did this happen—and what can be done about it?


    https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...rst-in-health/



    So I ask... Are "Legitimate" breeders of the genetic abominations also ethical?
    What do you mean by legitimate?

    If you are including breeders that do not try to breed out genetic conditions, and it seems you are, then you are playing a dishonest word game
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